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MARIS61

Real American
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/richard-mourdock-abortion_n_2007482.html

Indiana GOP U.S. Senate candidate Richard Mourdock declared Tuesday night he opposes aborting pregnancies conceived in rape because "it is something that God intended to happen."

Debating Rep. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) in their final Senate race showdown, a questioner asked them and Libertarian candidate Andrew Horning to explain their views on abortion.

All three said they were anti-abortion. But Mourdock went the further, putting himself in territory near Missouri GOP Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, the anti-abortion congressman who infamously asserted that women don't get pregnant from "legitimate rape."

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/richard-mourdock-abortion_n_2007482.html

Indiana GOP U.S. Senate candidate Richard Mourdock declared Tuesday night he opposes aborting pregnancies conceived in rape because "it is something that God intended to happen."

Debating Rep. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) in their final Senate race showdown, a questioner asked them and Libertarian candidate Andrew Horning to explain their views on abortion.

All three said they were anti-abortion. But Mourdock went the further, putting himself in territory near Missouri GOP Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, the anti-abortion congressman who infamously asserted that women don't get pregnant from "legitimate rape."

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

This is why I am scared of a Romney win. These kind of things can be thrown around freely.
 
All three said they were anti-abortion, whatever that really means.

I don't see this as anything at all close to what Akin said. All he said, basically, was that whenever life is begun, it's God's will. If you believe in God, it makes sense.
 
No, Denny, he said god WANTS it to happen. Maybe not the rape but the pregnancy.

Another Republican lady part expert said that there is no need for exception for the woman's life because life threatening pregnancies don't happen any more. War on science meets war on women.
 
No, Denny, he said god WANTS it to happen. Maybe not the rape but the pregnancy.

Another Republican lady part expert said that there is no need for exception for the woman's life because life threatening pregnancies don't happen any more. War on science meets war on women.


So now intended means wants?


"This baby is going to make life harder on me, so I think I'll kill it"

I wonder if we should start being able to do that for everything? Grandparents, people living on food stamps, a child that has special needs
 
No, Denny, he said god WANTS it to happen. Maybe not the rape but the pregnancy.

Another Republican lady part expert said that there is no need for exception for the woman's life because life threatening pregnancies don't happen any more. War on science meets war on women.

"Intended," not "wants"

I agree with you about abortion, but I think there is no "there there" in this case. He's not condoning rape in the least. He's just saying, effectively, that conception is a miracle.
 
Time to go on a crime spree! It's just god's will!
 
Sounds like a good defense. Why should the rapist be punished, it was what God Intended, no way a rapist can overcome God's Intentions. The "GI" defense
 
So now intended means wants?


"This baby is going to make life harder on me, so I think I'll kill it"

I wonder if we should start being able to do that for everything? Grandparents, people living on food stamps, a child that has special needs

Ouch a little too close to home. A president cuts off social services that provide medication to some of these people, they could die. Cleans up the budget and heck if they die . . . well it's god intention.
 
God's plan isn't only for good things to happen. I mean people "thank god" but if he did exist and had a plan, then everything that happens, good or bad, is what he "intended" to happen.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/richard-mourdock-abortion_n_2007482.html

Indiana GOP U.S. Senate candidate Richard Mourdock declared Tuesday night he opposes aborting pregnancies conceived in rape because "it is something that God intended to happen."

Debating Rep. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) in their final Senate race showdown, a questioner asked them and Libertarian candidate Andrew Horning to explain their views on abortion.

All three said they were anti-abortion. But Mourdock went the further, putting himself in territory near Missouri GOP Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, the anti-abortion congressman who infamously asserted that women don't get pregnant from "legitimate rape."

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

There's a kiss of death to a poitician.
 
Obama's on the campaign talking about stage 3 romnesia. That's horribly offensive to people suffering from cancer, no?

Or is this kind of weak logic only applied to republican candidates?
 
Appealing to Bearded Sky Man as the authority on pregnancy is offensive to me.
 
around 20% of all pregnancies result in miscarriage. So if god exists he is by the the biggest abortionist of all.
 
You can't say god wanted the pregnancy and not say he wanted the rape. Santorum called rape pregnancy gift from god.This 14 year old did not think it was a gift from god.

A whole lot of mansplaining can't excuse the inexcusable.
What if it were your daughter?
 
You can't say god wanted the pregnancy and not say he wanted the rape. Santorum called rape pregnancy gift from god.This 14 year old did not think it was a gift from god.

A whole lot of mansplaining can't excuse the inexcusable.
What if it were your daughter?

Not every rape (or sexual intercourse) results in pregnancy. The idea that the conception is something "God intended" is separate from the act.

And no amount of KOSplaining changes what is.

I'm pro choice. If it were my daughter and SHE wanted an abortion, I'd drive her to the doctor myself and wait there to drive her home.
 
And no amount of KOSplaining changes what is.

I'm pro choice. If it were my daughter and SHE wanted an abortion, I'd drive her to the doctor myself and wait there to drive her home.

Wait what?!?

Crandc posts "mansplaning" and you take it to KOSplaning?!?

Seriously, WTF?!?
 
The funny thing is that banning abortion will never come to a vote - a least not for the foreseeable future. We had republican House, republican Senate, and W as president. W even appointed TWO justices. Abortion wasn't banned.

So what if everything that this guy would get to vote on, he makes the right vote?

I think crandc and other women are being played.
 
The sad thing is that a LOT of people in Indiana agree with him. SMH. This state seems backward.
 
No, Denny. Not being played. True, abortion has not been outlawed but over 87% of counties no have no providers, and it has been so restricted as to be unavailable for many women, especially low income and rural women. When the clinics are forced to close, when women have to come up with an additional $400-700 for an unnecessary vaginal probe ultrasound, longer and longer waiting periods requiring multiple visits to clinics hundreds of miles away, well, in Texas women are now regularly crossing into Mexico. And the Supreme Court reopened the late term abortion ban that they had previously overturned because it contained no exemption for a woman's health - and this time upheld it. Women are not being played. We have a VP candidate who cosponsored a bill to outlaw ALL abortion and most forms of birth control and a presidential candidate who said he would "absolutely" sign it and would appoint Supreme Court justices of like mind.

Look, Mourdock and Akins and Ryan may not like it, but the United States of America is NOT a theocracy. Anyone can believe a tragedy they themselves will never face is what their god intended, but they have no right to make that thought the law for the one facing the tragedy. And theologically Mourdock's comment makes no sense. Either god is all powerful or he is not. (I am sure Mourdock would not consider a god who wasn't a "he".) If he's all powerful and intended the pregnancy, he must have intended the rape. If he did not intend the rape to happen, but it happened anyway, he's not all powerful. Most believers, including most Christians, don't say that horrific agony is what god intended, first because of the theological knot it ties them in, but also because most people (Republican congressmen and some posters here excepted) are too compassionate to tell a horribly suffering person their agony is what their god intends.

Which brings me to the totally bs "rape, incest, life of the woman" exception. It's really a way to force every woman to carry to term while pretending to be nice. Rachel Maddow talked about the so called rape exception last night but I don't need Rachel for that, I thought of it myself. Does the rape or incest need to be reported? Rape is one of the most underreported crimes, incest even more so. Who decides if it was rape? The woman? The rapist? The cops? The DA? The judge? her Congressperson? Most rapes are committed by a person the victim knows; if he says it was consensual is that raped enough for an abortion or not? What if the DA says not enough evidence and doesn't indict? If a jury believes the woman but says the prosecution did not prove beyond reasonable doubt? If the jury believes the woman was forced but thinks she deserves it? If the jury convicts and the man appeals? These are all real life situations. Would the woman be raped enough to get an abortion if she wants one? And the bill cosponsored by Congressmen Ryan and Akin would redefine rape so most rapes become non rape, including statutory. Currently, if a girl is below a certain age it's rape by definition. Would the raped and pregnant 10 year old have to prove she fought back enough for it to be real rape? Mediocre man shows his contempt by describing forcing a rape victim to carry to term in terms of convenience. Like transit being behind schedule. You know, Max was 10 minutes late and I was raped and forced to carry to term. How very inconvenient.

There are a few conditions like ectopic pregnancy where it can be said 100% of the time the woman will die if pregnancy is not terminated but medicine is rarely so certain. What does the likelihood of a woman's death have to be before "life of the woman" kicks in? 90%? 75%? 51? What? What if the pregnancy won't kill her but another condition would? For example, a woman with breast cancer gets pregnant and has to end chemo during pregnancy. The pregnancy won't kill her, but the untreated cancer will. That is also a real life situation. How near death does a woman have to be? In Latin American countries with personhood laws, if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy, 100% fatal, she still can't get an abortion. Instead she is checked into a hospital to wait in excruciating pain for how ever many days it takes for her fallopian tube to rupture. When the tube ruptures, the embryo (then about 1" in diameter, with no distingushing features) explodes. After the embryo dies, the woman can then be treated for the resulting hemorrhage and infection. Maternal mortality is way up in those countries.

How very inconvenient.
 
crandc

I'm pro choice.

That said, I see abortion as taking of a life, but it's justified. We take life in all sorts of ways that is justified - police kill bad guys shooting at them, Obama kills americans overseas with drones, the Navy Seals went in and shot Bin Laden pretty much in cold blood, our soldiers kill enemy soldiers in combat, citizens kill in self defense, the state executes those found guilty of capital crimes. All justified. I see abortion as a form of self defense.

This is relevant because there are clearly a lot of people who see the taking of INNOCENT life as murder. When murder occurs by the hundreds of thousands or millions each year, it's on the order of genocide. I get it from that perspective, too.

It just doesn't outweigh the individual woman's right to her own body. Because it's the woman's body, her right to choose, I don't even question WHY she makes the decision. "I don't want to share my body with the fetus" is sufficient and covers every situation there is. That would obviously cover the case where the woman is convinced her life is jeopardized by the pregnancy.

While I am pro choice, I don't see any reason at all that the state should put an abortion clinic in every woman's back yard. For all the $millions and $billions spent on lobbying the govt. over abortion rights, maybe some of it could go to actually help women get abortions they want/need by covering the cost of travel, hotel, and medical bills.

You are going to find many doctors who would be the ones to perform abortions that are pro life. Ron Paul delivered thousands of babies and is pro life and is a Libertarian. Yeah, the abortion is murder transcends Party because it is a PERSONAL religious or moral conviction.

The flip side is that when a woman wants to have the baby, it is most certainly a life. If a pregnant woman is murdered, TWO charges of murder will be brought against the murderer. So it can't be both ways - not a life if one woman wants an abortion, but a life if another woman doesn't.

I think my position is completely defensible and has no inconsistencies. However most people I encounter who are either pro choice or pro life have most indefensible and inconsistent views. Like abortion is OK, but capital punishment isn't (logic fault). Or abortion should be illegal with exceptions (exceptions are logic fault).

Rape is a horrible crime. In my mind, it is rape whenever the girl or woman (or man in 9% of reported cases!) doesn't consent. It's not that hard to define.

There is no nation or place on earth where it doesn't occur. I wish it were different.

I do think you're being played still.

You went on a rant about health of the mother. Before Roe, doctors routinely performed abortions where the life of the mother was in jeopardy, and they didn't wait for her to be on death's door. The laws of all of the states either permitted abortion in this situation or the courts overrode the state laws to permit it. In fact, the law was quite liberal about allowing abortion in the case of HEALTH of the mother, a lower standard than LIFE of the mother.

Sorry, but I see this rant as you being played.
 
Denny

I appreciate your thoughtful post.

I'm not for a clinic in every woman's backyard. It would sure scare my cats.
But when 87% of counties have no provider and women have to travel hundreds of miles, get a forced ultrasound that is not medically necessary, then go home for her 48 hour waiting period and come back again, access is an issue. A right one cannot access is not a right. If you had to go 200 miles to vote, get your ballot, come back 3 days later to cast your ballot, wouldn't you consider that infringement on right to vote?

I personally don't consider abortion "taking a life". I was raised Jewish and Halacha (Torah law) considers the fetus to be part of the woman's body until birth. I am now a nonbeliever and still feel that way. Of course, women have abortions (not "liberals" as mediocre man said) for as many reasons as there are women. For some it's an easy decision, for others a very hard one. At the end of the day, the late murdered Dr. George Tiller summed it up best when he said "trust women".

As for women's lives, it is true before Roe v Wade that women got abortions without waiting until they were at death's door, but laws being proposed by today's extremists and enacted in countries like Nicaragua and El Salvador are much stricter than the laws that existed in most places pre 1973. It would no longer be up to the doctor's judgment.

You may think I'm being played, women look at the past 2 years of unrelenting attacks on abortion, contraception, rape victims and know we are not. Since 2010 women's rights have been under attack with what I can only describe as manic glee. I have every reason to believe a Romney presidency would intensify these attacks as he has pledged to do so.
 
I think Leonard Pitts gets at the heart of the matter here when he addresses the "Binders full of women" thing:

No, what was irksome about the governor’s answer is that it seemed 30 years out of date, relic of a time when the person who wanted to seem concerned about diversity performed some act of ostentatious outreach, collected binders full of women (or Cubans, gays or whatever) from their various advocacy groups in order to make sure they were part of the candidate pool.

That would have sounded enlightened in 1985. But as the answer to a question about gender inequity in 2012, it just makes you wonder: Were the governor and his men really so isolated from capable women as recently as 2002 that they had to ask women’s groups for help? Were strong women really a species so exotic the governor needed a native guide to their world?

A pattern takes shape here. Between Romney’s binders full of women, and Rush Limbaugh branding a woman a “slut” because she thinks contraception should be part of her health insurance package, between Rep. Todd Akin’s belief that the uterus somehow filters out unwanted sperm and Rep. Allen West’s chastisement of an opponent’s failure to act like a “lady,” it becomes increasingly obvious some socially conservative men are stuck in a time warp. Akin, West and Limbaugh hunker down like Davy Crockett at the Alamo, behind modes of sexist condescension that were getting old when the Beatles broke up. Romney tries to show he “gets it” by disinterring a trope from the era of Jheri curls and Max Headroom.

Some may think women are getting "played" on the whole sexism issue. But the majority of women in America are Democrats, and it ain't because they are stupid. As Tina Fey put it recently, "If I have to listen to one more gray-faced man with a $2 haircut explain to me what rape is, I'm going to lose my mind."
 
Yeah, I think women are being played alright. Call me cynical, but I'm quite sure that a variety of issues are focus group tested by the campaigns and the ones that push peoples' buttons are added to the candidates' stump speeches and talked about by the surrogates that $1B in campaign funds buys. The media that's in the tank for one side or the other is sure to bring forward some person who presents a sob story meant to sway opinion.

For certain, the Obama campaign realizes its losing ground in the polls among women voters and this is one of those survey tested issues they think promoting will get some women to vote their way. That's being played.

You need a bullshit filter. We all do.

Romney is not out making speeches wherever he goes, talking about ending legalized abortion as if it's any sort of priority for him. His 5 point plan, which I assume is what he'd use his first 100 days to pass, doesn't have a thing to do with abortion rights. WHEN ASKED about it, he'll say whatever his campaign has focus group tested to be the best answer to get his base voters excited.

He's not a bogeyman. The democrats need him to be. They spent hundreds of $millions on TV ads portraying him to be one. "I'm not Mitt Romney" is pretty much all they want to run on, since the economy (the #1 actual issue and what Romney IS running on and talking about) is not in their favor. Democrats need bogeymen everywhere, BTW. Top 1%, the rich aren't paying their fair share, those evil oil companies, and so on. Republicans haven't had that sort of bogeyman since the USSR fell - OK, maybe Islamic extremists.

The flipside is true, too. Obama's not a communist from Kenya.
 
Food for thought:

Mitt Romney rejected a plan while governor of Massachusetts that would have allowed same-sex married couples to both be listed as the parents of children born to them, the Boston Globe reports from state records it obtained this month.

After the state's highest court legalized gay marriage in 2003, the Registry of Vital Records presented a plan to change the "father" box on Massachusetts birth certificates to say "father or second parent." Romney rejected the plan, the paper writes, and said same-sex parents would have to personally request that the governor's office change their children's birth certificates. Parents and clerks complained the special procedure caused delays.

Romney explained his opposition to the change to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2004, according to the Globe. "The children of America have the right to have a father and a mother,'' Romney said. "What should be the ideal for raising a child? Not a village, not 'parent A' and 'parent B,' but a mother and a father.''
 
Each and every democrat is just like this woman. Just like every republican is like Todd Akin.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/10/26/jeffco-democrat-of-the-year-convicted-of-felony-theft/

JEFFERSON COUNTY, Colo. (CBS4)- The woman named “Democrat of The Year” this year by the Jefferson County Democratic Party has been convicted of felony theft by a Jefferson County jury for stealing from a developmentally disabled 71-year-old woman.

“The jury did right,” said Cindy Maxwell, an advocate for the victim.

On Thursday, a jury convicted 66-year-old Estelle Carson of felony identify theft and felony theft from an at risk adult for stealing checks from the woman and using them to pay her own cable, cell phone and internet bills.

The victim is partially blind, developmentally disabled, has cerebral palsy and is confined to a wheelchair. She is on a fixed income of $596 per month according to the Jefferson County District Attorney’s Office.

(You go girl!)
 

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