Politics The Joe Biden Thread

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

at the time the constitution was written (in fact, from the 1600s to 1900s) "well regulated" meant accurate, well functioning, or capable. And "militia" meant civilian infantry.
Nope!
1755 Samuel Johnson Dictionary of the English Language. This is what was used for pretty much every legal writing in that time. Second Amendment was written in 1791.
1- To adjust by Rule
2- To Direct

Seems maybe he does understand the Constitution. You keep throwing out these statements and alternative facts and a simple fact check blows your whole premise up and shows your stance simply doesn't hold water.

By the way Militia by the same dictionary used the Latin term.
MILI'TIA. n.s.

[Latin.]The trainbands; the standing force of a nation.

Once YOU understand that, it will become clear to you that the Founding Fathers meant exactly what they wrote. "Well Regulated" means exactly what it means today.
 
Nope!
1755 Samuel Johnson Dictionary of the English Language. This is what was used for pretty much every legal writing in that time. Second Amendment was written in 1791.
1- To adjust by Rule
2- To Direct

Seems maybe he does understand the Constitution. You keep throwing out these statements and alternative facts and a simple fact check blows your whole premise up and shows your stance simply doesn't hold water.

By the way Militia by the same dictionary used the Latin term.
MILI'TIA. n.s.

[Latin.]The trainbands; the standing force of a nation.

Once YOU understand that, it will become clear to you that the Founding Fathers meant exactly what they wrote. "Well Regulated" means exactly what it means today.
Again with the argumentive "gotcha" stuff you keep complaining about other people doing?

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
 
Last edited:
Again with the argumentive "gotcha" stuff you keep complaining about other people doing?

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
No argument
Simple facts dude.
 
Well regulated has not changed and is very well established.
No matter how far you want to twist it.
 
So was the shooter in Uvalde part of a well-regulated militia? I guess he must have been.

barfo
 
So was the shooter in Uvalde part of a well-regulated militia? I guess he must have been.

barfo
Per the constitution, yes. We all are, as Americans.

The constitution (specifically The Bill Of Rigths) doesn't restrict people, it restricts the government in order to protect the rights of the people. So the idea that there would be some restriction in the constitution requiring people to join a government controlled service take some mental gymnastics...
 
Lol... the funny part is people trying to twist:
Muddy that water a little more. Sure.

This conversation is not about the right to bear arms. It’s about you trying to define “Well Regulated” when you tried to make it out to mean something else due to what the word meant in 1791 when the second amendment was written.
I showed you you were wrong.
On that issue you would have been best served simply say “Oh I got that wrong. You’re right” “ My Bad” but you simply cannot do that so you continue to try to push another narrative.
It’s why you are losing all credibility in this conversation.
I truly have a problem with you losing credibility because a bunch of what you are saying has merit. I want to give you credit for those things but unfortunately the false statements take precedence.
 
Per the constitution, yes. We all are, as Americans.

So there is actually no problem here. The guy in Uvalde was what the founding fathers envisioned.

barfo
 
Nope!
1755 Samuel Johnson Dictionary of the English Language. This is what was used for pretty much every legal writing in that time. Second Amendment was written in 1791.
1- To adjust by Rule
2- To Direct

Seems maybe he does understand the Constitution. You keep throwing out these statements and alternative facts and a simple fact check blows your whole premise up and shows your stance simply doesn't hold water.

By the way Militia by the same dictionary used the Latin term.
MILI'TIA. n.s.

[Latin.]The trainbands; the standing force of a nation.

Once YOU understand that, it will become clear to you that the Founding Fathers meant exactly what they wrote. "Well Regulated" means exactly what it means today.

Why the misquote? Interesting...

https://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/views/search.php?term=regulate
To RE'GULATE. v.a.

[regula, Lat.]

1. To adjust by rule or method.
Nature, in the production of things, always designs them to partake of certain, regulated, established essences, which are to be the models of all things to be produced: this, in that crude sense, would need some better explication.
Locke.

2. To direct.
Regulate the patient in his manner of living.
Wiseman. Ev’n goddesses are women; and no wife
Has pow’r to regulate her husband’s life.
Dryden.

To direct by rule. Like a 1 foot "ruler", which has measurable hashes used to verify calibration. Necessary for a unit to function well. And specifically uses a natural production of things as an example of a regulated (or calibrated, functioning as expected, etc) process, and established essences (again, calibrated, functioning as expected...)


Excerpt from:
A Text-Book of Astronomy, by George C. Comstock (This astronomy book was first published in 1901.)

With the general introduction of clocks and watches into use about a century
ago this kind of solar time went out of common use, since no well-regulated clock could keep the time correctly. The earth in its orbital motion around the
sun goes faster in some parts of its orbit than in others, and in consequence
the sun appears to move more rapidly among the stars in winter than in
summer, moreover, on account of the convergence of hour circles as we go
away from the equator, the same amount of motion along the ecliptic
produces more effect in winter and summer when the sun is north or south,
than it does in the spring and autumn when the sun is near the equator, and as
a combined result of these causes and other minor ones true solar time, as it is
called, is itself not uniform, but falls behind the uniform lapse of sidereal time
at a variable rate, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower. A true solar day
from noon to noon, is 51 seconds shorter in September than in December

1709:
If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations.

1714:
The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world.

1812:
The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial.

1848:
A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor.

1862:
It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding.

1894:
The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city.

Well-regulated in the constitution doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
 
Why the misquote? Interesting...

https://johnsonsdictionaryonline.com/views/search.php?term=regulate


To direct by rule. Like a 1 foot "ruler", which has measurable hashes used to verify calibration. Necessary for a unit to function well. And specifically uses a natural production of things as an example of a regulated (or calibrated, functioning as expected, etc) process, and established essences (again, calibrated, functioning as expected...)


Excerpt from:
A Text-Book of Astronomy, by George C. Comstock (This astronomy book was first published in 1901.)



1709:

1714:

1812:

1848:

1862:

1894:

Well-regulated in the constitution doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
Sigh...
 
So there is actually no problem here. The guy in Uvalde was what the founding fathers envisioned.

barfo
That's not what they were addressing in the constitution. They were obviously addressing limits to the rights of the government on law abiding citizens (otherwise we'd have no jails...)
It was the states' responsibility to remove him from the population when he threatened a school shooting at 17yrs of age, at which point they would have had the right to restrict his access to firearms, track his internet history (which would have showed his aggressive and dangerous tendencies), and possibly remove his freedom.

The 2nd amendment doesn't protect this guy.
 
Muddy that water a little more. Sure.

This conversation is not about the right to bear arms. It’s about you trying to define “Well Regulated” when you tried to make it out to mean something else due to what the word meant in 1791 when the second amendment was written.
I showed you you were wrong.
On that issue you would have been best served simply say “Oh I got that wrong. You’re right” “ My Bad” but you simply cannot do that so you continue to try to push another narrative.
It’s why you are losing all credibility in this conversation.
I truly have a problem with you losing credibility because a bunch of what you are saying has merit. I want to give you credit for those things but unfortunately the false statements take precedence.
You didn't show anything. You showed that misquoted the dictionary you were referencing, and didn't reference it. Once I found it, it became apparent why somebody would make such a misquote.

I've not made 1 false statement that I've been made aware of. You have, as has been proven several times over.
 
That's not what they were addressing in the constitution. They were obviously addressing limits to the rights of the government on law abiding citizens (otherwise we'd have no jails...)

I don't know, it doesn't say that prisoners don't get to have guns in jail. Therefore, prisoners have the right to have guns in jail.

It was the states' responsibility to remove him from the population when he threatened a school shooting at 17yrs of age, at which point they would have had the right to restrict his access to firearms, track his internet history (which would have showed his aggressive and dangerous tendencies), and possibly remove his freedom.

If only every criminal announced their intentions ahead of time.

The 2nd amendment doesn't protect this guy.

Seems to me the 2nd amendment would give him his guns back, were he still alive.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I don't see anything in there about exceptions for lawbreakers or prisoners.

barfo
 
Per the constitution, yes. We all are, as Americans.

The constitution (specifically The Bill Of Rigths) doesn't restrict people, it restricts the government in order to protect the rights of the people. So the idea that there would be some restriction in the constitution requiring people to join a government controlled service take some mental gymnastics...
If that's the case then why would the Constitution need to remark on that as a requirement to own and possess a gun? Why not just say all Americans have the right to keep and bear arms period?
 
If that's the case then why would the Constitution need to remark on that as a requirement to own and possess a gun? Why not just say all Americans have the right to keep and bear arms period?

What's your definition of "arms".
 
I don't know, it doesn't say that prisoners don't get to have guns in jail. Therefore, prisoners have the right to have guns in jail.



If only every criminal announced their intentions ahead of time.



Seems to me the 2nd amendment would give him his guns back, were he still alive.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I don't see anything in there about exceptions for lawbreakers or prisoners.

barfo
The 14th amendment covers that.
 
If that's the case then why would the Constitution need to remark on that as a requirement to own and possess a gun? Why not just say all Americans have the right to keep and bear arms period?


In this instance, the operative clause of the amendment is clear:

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

We can also understand the meaning of the amendment by examining the intentions, motivations, and beliefs of the people who wrote it -- what they were trying to achieve by doing so. There is extensive legislative history on this subject, which makes it clear that the founders believed that individual firearm ownership was an important and necessary preexisting right. The Supreme Court ruling that I've referenced goes into this history:
> By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,”. Other contemporary authorities concurred. Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.

> And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists. In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s, the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms. A New York article of April 1769 said that “t is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.”

> There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, (...) [citations omitted]


https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/#tab-opinion-1962738
 
Why not say all people or all capable adult people?
I don't think they were concerned about restricting the rights of people. They were concerned about restricting the rights of the government.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed
That is pretty darned clear.
 
So keep them and bear them. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be harder to get.

Maybe. I think it's a long and painful road to rejection if that's the basis of how we decide to address these issues (making guns harder for law abiding citizens to get). I just don't think these problems get solved in the next couple decades like that. And pushing restrictions on access to guns, I'm afraid, makes the moderate right harder get on board.

So it will be a long fight, and it will be challenged constitutionally every step of the way. And then the supreme court will just side with the far right. And we will have alienated not just for the far right, but many of the moderate right whom it would be nice to get on board for other things which have proven to have also have huge secondary impacts on violent crime and murder rates (including gun crime).

I am fully on board with making it very hard for dangerous people to get guns, including a registry of dangerous people.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top