The Raptors should be an example to us of how to build a better team

[Charcoal Filtered]

Both of those teams have made significant trades and kept adjusting their team until they had great success. But specifically I think the parallel between our team and Toronto fits pretty well, no?

I think you always get into trouble trying to repeat what someone else is done. Much better to be the best you instead of being someone else.

Toronto was near the end of its expected window with many of its players. It made sense to go all in this year, then transition from an aging roster.

We still have the development of Collins and Nurk to improve our roster. Going all in next year may make sense. There was no way we were beating Golden St this year, healthy Nurk or not.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think you always get into trouble trying to repeat what someone else is done. Much better to be the best you instead of being someone else.

Toronto was near the end of its expected window with many of its players. It made sense to go all in this year, then transition from an aging roster.

We still have the development of Collins and Nurk to improve our roster. Going all in next year may make sense. There was no way we were beating Golden St this year, healthy Nurk or not.

Ive never understood trying to follow the path of another team.

If you follow it through the course, it doesnt seem to make sense.

So if we see what Toronto has done, don't all the other teams as well? So there are now 29 other teams gearing up to counter Toronto's moves. So wouldn't those gearing up also be able to counter our moves if we did the same? Why be a step behind? Set our own trend.

Though, I think @Natebishop3, it takes a trendsetter to set a trend and Stotts/Olshey are not trend setters.

I will say this though. I'M not a fan of firing Stotts without a clear upgrade. Toronto did that and tghey didnt improve, though they didnt fall off.
To me, that says that great teams are more about the talent on the roster than the coach pulling the strings.

How do we match up against Toronto talent wise?

Gasol<Nurk
Kawhi>>>Harkless
Green<<CJ
Lowry<Dame
Siakim>>Aminu

More than one "<>" means I think they are that much better or worse than the other.

Right now, I think the edge goes to Toronto for the starting 5, but I think our bench is better(only because of Hood, Curry, Kanter), but next year will likely be worse.

Here is the key to me about switching coaches:

Do we think that we can get more out of our current roster than Stotts did? If so, then we need a change. If we think the roster performed about as well as expected, or overachieved, then Stotts should stay, because there isn't a coach out there that will then get more, if we already got the best they can do.

So what good would another coach do unless its a coach like Pops?


I dont think the coaching change got Toronto to the finals, I think the lack of an LBJ in the East did it.

Now, lets look at Toronto last year to this year:

This year, they went 58-24
Last year they were 59-23


So are you saying that the head coaching change was instrumental in getting them to the finals, even though they finished with a worse record than last year and the East now doesn't have an LBJ?

To me, the records indicate they were both lateral moves and didn't improve the team much, but what allowed them to get to the finals was the absence of LBJ.

It seems the point of this thread is to show that the changes Toronto made improved the team when the records indicate it didn't.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Thats 100% false. The Blazers wouldnt have beaten Milwaukee. Maybe not even Philadelphia. Last years Toronto team certai ly wouldnt have. Toronto improced their team, and improved their chances at a championship by, ya kn now, making the Finals.

We need to do the same, and using a WCF that wouldnt have happened without Simons and Labissiere bringing us back from a 28-point deficit shouldnt be used as an excuse to be complacent.

You have no way of knowing they couldnt beat Milwaukee or Philly. In fact I would disagree. I think in 7 games they would have a shot to beat any of those teams. I think the Blazers, GS or Denver would win a series vs any of the eastern conference teams.

The whole idea the Sacremento game is the only reason they got to the WCF finals is just an attempt to undermine them so people can push their agenda, its really not much different than the people using the WCF’s as a measuring stick to push their vision of the team. You’re taking one game and saying well because of that their whole season was just perfect and everything lined up. In this conversation you havent acknowledged all the things that happened that weren't so perfect, Like Kanter’s shoulder, Nurk leg, CJ’s knee, Hood hurting his knee in the Denver series (he never really looked comfortable after that).

I mean I agree with the notion I would like them to take a risk for AD if its available. Id agree with the notion that just being happy they got to the WCF’s is the wrong approach.
I just simple dont agree that somehow everything went perfect for them and thats the only reason they got to WCF’s.
When you start Meyers Leonard in the WCF’s things didnt go perfectly for you...

 

[e_blazer]

What’s curious to me is the subtext of threads like this that Olshey is too timid to pull off a trade of a good player for a superstar player. And yet, that’s exactly what he did with the Clippers. He packaged assets, built around Eric Gordon (a somewhat undersized shooting guard bordering on All Star recognition) and traded for Chris Paul to pair him with Blake Griffin. That move was one of the major reasons that the Blazers went after him to be GM. I have no doubt he’d make a similar move here if the opportunity arises.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

A year ago they had the best record in the East. They had the coach of the year. They had one of the best backcourts in the league.

They were swept by the Cavs in the second round.

So what did they do? They fired their coach of the year. They took a massive risk and traded their All-Star guard for a guy who is going to be a free agent this summer. They shook things up.

They're now going to the NBA Finals and I think they have a very good chance to beat the Warriors.

They did the opposite of what this team continues to do, and they're reaping the rewards. But let's just climb right back onto that treadmill. Maybe things will be different next year. Maybe Terry will figure out how to beat the trap. Maybe we will learn how to defend the pick and roll. Maybe we will get a wing that doesn't completely suck. Maybe.... maybe....

Unfortunately the horse is already out of the barn; we didn't get George and we extended Stotts.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

You think if they were in the west the result would be the same? We will find out soon enough it they can beat the Warriors. GS will put Green on Kawhi. How does the rest of the team match up?

If Gasol gets in to a good shooting groove, Toronto can win.

 

[H.C.]

They do have a very good chance of beating Golden State. 25%-40% is a very good chance.

The likelihood of Toronto beating Golden State is higher than Kawhi leaving.

They have a punchers chance just like Houston, Portland, Bucks, Clippers, etc.
But that's it.
10% chance.

If GSW plays like they're supposed to it's 4-0.

 

[borim69]

I would give Toronto and Milwaukee better then a punchers chance at GSW. I think Boston just has too many people wanting the ball they all get in each others way. This summer should be interesting though. Through out the league

 

[wizenheimer]

I actually sort of disagree a bit. I think part of what we saw in the WCF’s was the Blazers getting to the WCF’s was their goal, they seemed pretty content while GS didnt. Also I think the Denver series took a ton out of Portland, Hood never really looked the same after he tweaked his knee, Kanter had the seperated shoulder, cheap shotted and further injured. Maybe they dont beat GS, but I think there may have been advantages to playing them in the 2nd round.

sorry, but I don't think the loss to the Warriors had anything to do with Portland being satisfied with being in the WC finals

the loss was simply due to playing a much better team. The warriors had an advantage at every position on the floor; and they had Green. Their coaching is better and their bench was even better. And they have a system that has won 3 championships in 4 years. Blazers are 1-12 against them in the playoffs. 0-7 on the road and 1-5 at home. No moral victories in that record and no way to rationalize the mismatch in talent

 

[Phatguysrule]

...how did being on the same side of the bracket matter last year? We got extremely lucky to get the 3 seed. And then extremely lucky with the way Denver shot the ball.

Uh that's like a 50/50 shot... Not very long odds. You can't discount Portlands role in effecting Denver's shooting percentage.

You're really reaching....

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

sorry, but I don't think the loss to the Warriors had anything to do with Portland being satisfied with being in the WC finals

the loss was simply due to playing a much better team. The warriors had an advantage at every position on the floor; and they had Green. Their coaching is better and their bench was even better. And they have a system that has won 3 championships in 4 years. Blazers are 1-12 against them in the playoffs. 0-7 on the road and 1-5 at home. No moral victories in that record and no way to rationalize the mismatch in talent

I believe Dame said it himself Id have to find the interview. Yeah, GS is better than them, and everyone else, thats not news.

 

[Natebishop3]

They have a punchers chance just like Houston, Portland, Bucks, Clippers, etc.
But that's it.
10% chance.

If GSW plays like they're supposed to it's 4-0.

I disagree. I think Kawhi is an exceptional player. Better than Dame. On par with Curry. I think they also have a much better overall roster, and as far as I can tell, they're healthy. We were not healthy. Not even close. Hood had that knee injury, Dame had separated ribs, Kanter with his shoulder and Ramadan, and Aminu also playing through Ramadan.

 

[Natebishop3]

Sign the best all around player in the league?

Who said anything about signing anyone?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Who said anything about signing anyone?

Trade for then. Whatever

 

[oldmangrouch]

Will be interesting what this Raptors roster looks like in a couple months...

Same could be said of the Blazers. The obvious difference being that the Raptors have a fair chance to have a trophy to show for it.

 

[oldmangrouch]

There is no shame in learning from what other teams do right.

There are some Blazer fans who believe the success of other teams is all dumb good luck, while our failures are all the result of blind bad luck. Sorry, but that is childish. Talent evaluation and development is only considered "luck" by people who are bad at it. Same with coaching. Yes, there are factors like injuries that are largely beyond your control...but there are plenty of things a team can control that are at least as important as the random factors.

Cthulhu damn it people! We don't need to be jealous of other teams, we don't need to act like victims, and we don't HAVE to fail!

 

[brooklynballer]

In our one-on-one oriented system, that'd be a downgrade. With the way Stotts coaches, we need players who can create their own shots at a very high level. Jrue can do it on a high level, but not as well as C.J.

For a well coached team, Holiday would probably be an upgrade.

I disagree. Holiday is the superior player because he plays both ends of the court. Aside from maybe Marcus Smart and Klay Thompson, he is the best guard defender in the league. And his scoring is underrated. He scores more, assists more, gets to the rim better, has a higher eFG - literally better in almost every statistical category with the exception of 3FG. I take Jrue 100x out of 100 if he’s available in that trade.

 

[Labinot41]

What’s curious to me is the subtext of threads like this that Olshey is too timid to pull off a trade of a good player for a superstar player. And yet, that’s exactly what he did with the Clippers. He packaged assets, built around Eric Gordon (a somewhat undersized shooting guard bordering on All Star recognition) and traded for Chris Paul to pair him with Blake Griffin. That move was one of the major reasons that the Blazers went after him to be GM. I have no doubt he’d make a similar move here if the opportunity arises.

This will be the 1st free agency without Paul Allen. Neil said after Paul died that many times when he wanted to make a move, Scouting a player for the draft or whatever he had to ask Paul. This time he maybe has more freedom, we'll see. But, as long as he doesn't prove me wrong, i will not trust Neil

 

[MARIS61]

Toronto isn't even a Real American NBA Team.

The Canadian Socialist team will be crushed by Golden State's Capitalist Juggernaut!

 

[e_blazer]

Toronto isn't even a Real American NBA Team.

The Canadian Socialist team will be crushed by Golden State's Capitalist Juggernaut!

But the bucks stopped in Canada.

 

[tester551]

I disagree. Holiday is the superior player because he plays both ends of the court. Aside from maybe Marcus Smart and Klay Thompson, he is the best guard defender in the league. And his scoring is underrated. He scores more, assists more, gets to the rim better, has a higher eFG - literally better in almost every statistical category with the exception of 3FG. I take Jrue 100x out of 100 if he’s available in that trade.

Im fairly sure Bones agrees with you, but was just being sarcastic here.

This will be the 1st free agency without Paul Allen. Neil said after Paul died that many times when he wanted to make a move, Scouting a player for the draft or whatever he had to ask Paul. This time he maybe has more freedom, we'll see. But, as long as he doesn't prove me wrong, i will not trust Neil

Several of y'all make PA out to be some micro-managing owner. I believe that is a complete mis-charicturation of his involvement.

PA undoubtedly signed off on all deals (as probably 90% of all sports owners do). There have been several reports in the past that PA is extremely involved and wanting all his questions answered (which is good). However, I remember hearing that PA would always defer to the GM to make the call. Thats how it should be.

The owner give his opinion & insight - but the GM makes the call.

PA wasnt like Cuban or the Kings owner

 

[tester551]

Toronto isn't even a Real American NBA Team.

The Canadian Socialist team will be crushed by Golden State's Communist Juggernaut!

Fixed it.

 

[crandc]

A year ago they had the best record in the East. They had the coach of the year. They had one of the best backcourts in the league.

They were swept by the Cavs in the second round.

So what did they do? They fired their coach of the year. They took a massive risk and traded their All-Star guard for a guy who is going to be a free agent this summer. They shook things up.

They're now going to the NBA Finals and I think they have a very good chance to beat the Warriors.

They did the opposite of what this team continues to do, and they're reaping the rewards. But let's just climb right back onto that treadmill. Maybe things will be different next year. Maybe Terry will figure out how to beat the trap. Maybe we will learn how to defend the pick and roll. Maybe we will get a wing that doesn't completely suck. Maybe.... maybe....

Hope it doesn't happen, but if they get swept by Warriors, will they still be an example to follow?

Incidentally, Blazers were not a. #1 seed. They were a #3 seed who upset #2.

 

[joeBlazers]

The Raptors actually play defense and seem to have some structure on offense with the ball in the hands of solid decision makers.
Did you watch them swarm the train Giannis?
Giannis ran all over the Celtics. The Raptors forced him to shoot the midrange or pass.

 

[BonesJones]

Uh that's like a 50/50 shot... Not very long odds. You can't discount Portlands role in effecting Denver's shooting percentage.

You're really reaching....

Look up their percentage on wide open shots, then get back to me.

It seems like people are having trouble trying to grasp the context of what I'm trying to illustrate. We shouldn't be basing future decisions off of making the WCF vs. the 2nd round. Obviously it was fun and a great moment to reach the WCF, but:

1.) We barely won the 2nd round
2.) We had to come back from 28-down with scrubs to get the 3 seed to make the WCF

I'm NOT saying it's flukey. I'm saying that the difference between the 2nd round and WCF is negligible in regards to building this team for the future.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Hope it doesn't happen, but if they get swept by Warriors, will they still be an example to follow?

Incidentally, Blazers were not a. #1 seed. They were a #3 seed who upset #2.

Depends on what you think of the Bucks. I would argue the Bucks were the 3rd best team in the league, and the Raptors victory over them was impressive.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Toronto isn't even a Real American NBA Team.

The Canadian Socialist team will be crushed by Golden State's Capitalist Juggernaut!

Hahaha

 

[wizenheimer]

Several of y'all make PA out to be some micro-managing owner. I believe that is a complete mis-charicturation of his involvement.

PA undoubtedly signed off on all deals (as probably 90% of all sports owners do). There have been several reports in the past that PA is extremely involved and wanting all his questions answered (which is good). However, I remember hearing that PA would always defer to the GM to make the call. Thats how it should be.

The owner give his opinion & insight - but the GM makes the call.

PA wasnt like Cuban or the Kings owner

well said. This "the-devil-made-me-do-it" shit, with PA staring as the devil and Olshey as the victim, started shortly after the disastrous July 2016. That month made Olshey look like a moron, but his supporters seemed to latch on to the excuse it was Paul Allen making all the bad calls. That narrative never withstood any reasonable scrutiny but it persists to this day

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

well said. This "the-devil-made-me-do-it" shit, with PA staring as the devil and Olshey as the victim, started shortly after the disastrous July 2016. That month made Olshey look like a moron, but his supporters seemed to latch on to the excuse it was Paul Allen making all the bad calls. That narrative never withstood any reasonable scrutiny but it persists to this day

This is fairly inaccurate. Many moves over the past 20ish years there were rumors of PA being a big part in them. Its not some new thing with NO.

 

[e_blazer]

well said. This "the-devil-made-me-do-it" shit, with PA staring as the devil and Olshey as the victim, started shortly after the disastrous July 2016. That month made Olshey look like a moron, but his supporters seemed to latch on to the excuse it was Paul Allen making all the bad calls. That narrative never withstood any reasonable scrutiny but it persists to this day

Just for the record, I never intended to indicate that Olshey and his team weren’t on board with the Crabbe contract. I do, however, think that not getting outbid for one of his restricted free agents was something that PA was fully behind. Can you point to anytime where we didn’t match?