The stock markets aren't happy with the election results.

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Don't know if I buy all this, but if the rich get some windfall from Obama being president, I got no problem with that. I still consider him to be more of a president for the middle and lower class, so if the rich get some benefits while he is in office, seems fair.

How is he for the middle and lower class? Keeping them unemployed and on welfare is hardly what I'd call even humane treatment.

ObamaCare? Welcome to the DMV of health care. It is going to take many pages of ObamaCare specific forms to fill out to get treated.
 
Don't know if I buy all this, but if the rich get some windfall from Obama being president, I got no problem with that. I still consider him to be more of a president for the middle and lower class, so if the rich get some benefits while he is in office, seems fair.

Which part do you think I'm wrong about?
 
How is he for the middle and lower class? Keeping them unemployed and on welfare is hardly what I'd call even humane treatment.

ObamaCare? Welcome to the DMV of health care. It is going to take many pages of ObamaCare specific forms to fill out to get treated.

I thought unemployment hit a five yr low? Anyways, increasing taxes on the rich, Obamacare, pro-union . . . just seems like he is more about the middle class. It would be ironic if the Obama is more advantgeous for the rich than the middle class. If that is the case, middle class can't catch a break. With either Romney or Obama . . . rich get richer and poor get poorer.

But again, I'm not convinced Obama is bad for the lower and middle class.
 
I'm convinced he's bad for everyone. The rich may make out well now, but I can't help but look at the fiscal fundamentals of the country and see a major catastrophe coming. Obama knows it won't be on his watch, so he's living it up like there's no tomorrow.

More like 2020 there really won't be no tomorrow.
 
Which part do you think I'm wrong about?

Well you talk about a stock market that is a bubble and going to burst yet rich people get the advanatage of investing in it while others don't.

And with all due respect, you are someone who knee jerked and sold all your equiteies when Obama was elected, which was a wrong call. So hard to take what you say as gospel if your dumping all your equities because Obama is president.
 
How is he for the middle and lower class? Keeping them unemployed and on welfare is hardly what I'd call even humane treatment.

ObamaCare? Welcome to the DMV of health care. It is going to take many pages of ObamaCare specific forms to fill out to get treated.

I still don't understand the concept of this "penalty" against those that don't have health care (and maybe it's been changed since I initially heard about this). As I understand it, and please help me fill in what I'm missing........ If you don't have health care, you will be fined? So, if I can't afford health care for myself, I am going to be fined, which puts me further into the hole? I really am asking the question. I had read this in one of the ObamaCare summaries when this was first being launched, so I'm not sure if this is still part of the plan.
 
I'm convinced he's bad for everyone. The rich may make out well now, but I can't help but look at the fiscal fundamentals of the country and see a major catastrophe coming. Obama knows it won't be on his watch, so he's living it up like there's no tomorrow.

More like 2020 there really won't be no tomorrow.

People were saying the same thigs during the Bush era. Hard to know what to believe these days.
 
People were saying the same thigs during the Bush era. Hard to know what to believe these days.

You never feel the pain while charging up your credit cards. Only when the bills come due.

We're paying for Bush's medicare prescription drug benefit (huge expense) now as Obama's recklessly running up the debt spending on anything else.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/283493-cbos-wake-up-call

However, in a remarkable example of whistling past the graveyard, the president did little to substantively address the biggest crisis we face: the federal budget.

The president needed only to look at last week’s report by the Congressional Budget Office to see the scale of the problem.

In their budget and economic outlook for 2013-2023, CBO sees near trillion-dollar annual deficits, at least $7 trillion in new debt, and more spending on interest payments on the debt ($5.4 trillion) than on Medicaid ($4.3 trillion).


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...t-anonymous-why-america-needs-to-act-now.html

In 2027 Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and interest on the debt will consume all tax revenue, according to the GAO.

---

Read that last one carefully. There simply won't be any money to spend on anything else. From the military to roads to the courts.

The amount of tax hikes needed to pay for it all are going to be staggering. I can't imagine the lower class paying 85% tax rate and not revolting.
 
Well you talk about a stock market that is a bubble and going to burst yet rich people get the advanatage of investing in it while others don't.

Are you aware that the richer you are, the more income you have to invest?

Let's take a hypothetical example: I make $1M / year. You make $40k / year. After taxes, gas, food, utilities, mortgage, kids' tuition, car payments, daycare, insurance, etc, I have $600k to invest. You have perhaps none or $2k. The market rises 10%. I've just make $60k, you've made $200. I've made 6% on my yearly income. You've made 0.5% on your yearly income. That is going to keep increasing the gap between the rich and the poor / middle class.

And with all due respect, you are someone who knee jerked and sold all your equiteies when Obama was elected, which was a wrong call. So hard to take what you say as gospel if your dumping all your equities because Obama is president.

You have some of this right and some of it wrong. I sold a lot of equities that were going to be taxed at long-term capital gains rates before the end of the year when the new capital gains rates would affect me. That was indeed the right call as capital gains tax rates have gone up for me since then.

I sold other short term equities in October. I re-bought SSO on December 12, which is now up about 20%.

It appears we have much different approaches to the stock market. I am in and out a few times a year. So I actually welcome a significant drop. People who buy-and-hold or have their 401k in the market will feel the next deep drop much more.

Don't worry about me, I'm doing alright.
 
Are you aware that the richer you are, the more income you have to invest?

Let's take a hypothetical example: I make $1M / year. You make $40k / year. After taxes, gas, food, utilities, mortgage, kids' tuition, car payments, daycare, insurance, etc, I have $600k to invest. You have perhaps none or $2k. The market rises 10%. I've just make $60k, you've made $200. I've made 6% on my yearly income. You've made 0.5% on your yearly income. That is going to keep increasing the gap between the rich and the poor / middle class.



You have some of this right and some of it wrong. I sold a lot of equities that were going to be taxed at long-term capital gains rates before the end of the year when the new capital gains rates would affect me. That was indeed the right call as capital gains tax rates have gone up for me since then.

I sold other short term equities in October. I re-bought SSO on December 12, which is now up about 20%.

It appears we have much different approaches to the stock market. I am in and out a few times a year. So I actually welcome a significant drop. People who buy-and-hold or have their 401k in the market will feel the next deep drop much more.

Don't worry about me, I'm doing alright.

Good to know. I was worried a little. When I see a post:

I pulled everything out of the market before the election, except for my company stock options. I'm glad I did.

Those are the words of someone making a rash decision, IMO. Sounds like you were just embellishing a little due to being upset about the election results. Understandable.

Glad to hear you are making money on the market . . . Obama ain't so bad after all for the rich. Why they complain about a slight increase of personal income tax doesn't make sene if they get the advantage right back in the stock market.
 
Glad to hear you are making money on the market . . . Obama ain't so bad after all for the rich. Why they complain about a slight increase of personal income tax doesn't make sene if they get the advantage right back in the stock market.

Yeah, weird that people would actually want a non-artificial, free market and the ability to make their own decisions with the money they've worked hard to earn. It isn't really that shocking, IMHO.
 
Yeah, weird that people would actually want a non-artificial, free market and the ability to make their own decisions with the money they've worked hard to earn. It isn't really that shocking, IMHO.

Well I don't get it. As I understand from you, Obama is actually more favorable to the rich and yet they still bitch about increased personal income tax. I think they are just always looking for a reason to bitch.
 
Well I don't get it. As I understand from you, Obama is actually more favorable to the rich and yet they still bitch about increased personal income tax. I think they are just always looking for a reason to bitch.

Haha. I laugh.

But it's true.
 
Well I don't get it. As I understand from you, Obama is actually more favorable to the rich and yet they still bitch about increased personal income tax. I think they are just always looking for a reason to bitch.

That's cool if you won't want to have an intelligent discussion about it. Carry on.
 
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks edged up on Wednesday, with the Dow rising for the ninth straight session to another record, buoyed by surprisingly strong retail sales that suggested the economy is gaining momentum.

My thoughts . . . sell, sell sell
 
In 2027 Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and interest on the debt will consume all tax revenue, according to the GAO.

---

Read that last one carefully. There simply won't be any money to spend on anything else. From the military to roads to the courts.

That's right. Because nothing will change between now and then.

I never thought of it this way before, but maybe the Republican 'starve the beast' strategy is going to backfire on them. Maybe their precious military is what is finally going to be starved. I think maybe most people will choose medicare over F-35s.

barfo
 
What if all the rain drops were lemon drops and gum drops?

Cute, but the facts are that no raindrops are lemon drops or gum drops, whereas quite a number of rich people are selfish.

Throughout history, there have always been enough like-minded rich people.

Really. Please give evidence of that. So you think scientific progress could not ever have happened any sooner than it did, at any point in history, if there had been additional funding available?

The March of Dimes isn't some rich family funding research into childhood paralysis. It's Jerry Lewis doing telethons raising money from the masses. Those people CHOOSE freely to donate.

How many Jerry Lewises are there? How many diseases are there? Which number is greater?

barfo
 
Poor people rape, murder, and steal more. And donate less to charity. Fall back, lol.

Also governments cannot manage the most basic of operations, like the post-office,
 
Poor people rape, murder, and steal more. And donate less to charity. Fall back, lol.

Also governments cannot manage the most basic of operations, like the post-office,

Really? Seems to me the post office works pretty well (within the constraints imposed on it by we, the people). You can give them 40-odd cents and they'll hand-deliver a message anywhere in the US, they handle millions of them, and rarely lose them. I don't see a problem in postal management, myself. There are some problems, like snail mail is kind of old-fashioned and so volumes are dropping. But that's not the fault of the post office, or the government (except to the extent that the government invented the Internet, and thus killed the post office).

barfo
 
Really? Seems to me the post office works pretty well (within the constraints imposed on it by we, the people). You can give them 40-odd cents and they'll hand-deliver a message anywhere in the US, they handle millions of them, and rarely lose them. I don't see a problem in postal management, myself. There are some problems, like snail mail is kind of old-fashioned and so volumes are dropping. But that's not the fault of the post office, or the government (except to the extent that the government invented the Internet, and thus killed the post office).

barfo

UPS and Fedex are makings billions of dollars, you failed. And stop saying "we the people", when the majority of people force their opinions on others and want free shit.

The point is something like that shouldn't exist, for precisely the reasons FDR articulated when he criticized public postal employees.
 
UPS and Fedex are makings billions of dollars, you failed.

They sure are, and good for them. But if you don't understand the difference between the post office and Fedex, go down to your local Fedex office and tell them you have 40 cents and want them to deliver your package.

And stop saying "we the people", when the majority of people force their opinions on others and want free shit.

I'm sorry your opinions are so unpopular. Maybe you should learn to be more persuasive if you want to be in the majority.

The point is something like that shouldn't exist, for precisely the reasons FDR articulated when he criticized public postal employees.

If that was your point you should have said that, instead of what you actually said.

barfo
 
They sure are, and good for them. But if you don't understand the difference between the post office and Fedex, go down to your local Fedex office and tell them you have 40 cents and want them to deliver your package.

You are crazy, you're not entitled to anything, or any service at a stupid cost. Postal employees are overpaid and their are too many of them in the same radius.

Your ridiculous premise that government employees are paid a fair price, and that you deserve cheap mail at gunpoint, is stupid as well.


I'm sorry your opinions are so unpopular. Maybe you should learn to be more persuasive if you want to be in the majority.

Incorrect, natural rights are given to me by my existence on this planet, the majority can never take away what never belonged to them. Populism is nonsense that is economically illiterate.


If that was your point you should have said that, instead of what you actually said.

barfo

I can score in the post or out on the perimeter, bruh. I'll pwn you as I see fit. ;]
 
You are crazy, you're not entitled to anything, or any service at a stupid cost. Postal employees are overpaid and their are too many of them in the same radius.

Your ridiculous premise that government employees are paid a fair price, and that you deserve cheap mail at gunpoint, is stupid as well.

As usual, you are assigning opinions to me that you pulled out of your own ass. What I actually think is that the USPS was a great and wonderful thing in its day, but its day has passed and it is time to start shutting it down.

barfo
 
As usual, you are assigning opinions to me that you pulled out of your own ass.

Then stop telling me how well the USPS runs, because your definition of the word "well" is very weird.

What I actually think is that the USPS was a great and wonderful thing in its day, but its day has passed and it is time to start shutting it down.

barfo


Sorry but you're not that slick. Let's quote what you previously said:

"Seems to me the post office works pretty well (within the constraints imposed on it by we, the people). You can give them 40-odd cents and they'll hand-deliver a message anywhere in the US, they handle millions of them, and rarely lose them. I don't see a problem in postal management, myself. There are some problems, like snail mail is kind of old-fashioned and so volumes are dropping. But that's not the fault of the post office, or the government (except to the extent that the government invented the Internet, and thus killed the post office)."

Seems like you don't want to take your medicine. You made a stupid post, mostly in praise of the USPS.

The USPS failed for a variety of reasons that have exactly to do with "postal management". Thinking a business that is completely bankrupt but runs "pretty well" according to you, is a pretty radical position. Employees are overpaid , and the way they collect their union benefits is disgusting enough mismanagement as it is. This didn't start happening recently, this is an accumulation of incompetence over the years.
 
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Then stop telling me how well the USPS runs, because your definition of the word "well" is very weird.

I explicitly told you what I meant, so I'm not sure why you are surprised.

Sorry but you're not that slick. Let's quote what you previously said:

"Seems to me the post office works pretty well (within the constraints imposed on it by we, the people). You can give them 40-odd cents and they'll hand-deliver a message anywhere in the US, they handle millions of them, and rarely lose them. I don't see a problem in postal management, myself. There are some problems, like snail mail is kind of old-fashioned and so volumes are dropping. But that's not the fault of the post office, or the government (except to the extent that the government invented the Internet, and thus killed the post office)."

Yep, that's what I said. What part of that do you take issue with?

Seems like you don't want to take your medicine. You made a stupid post, mostly in praise of the USPS.

Sorry, but 'you made a stupid post' isn't an argument. It's just a stupid post. See, I can do that too.

The USPS failed for a variety of reasons that have exactly to do with "postal management". Thinking a business that is completely bankrupt but runs "pretty well" according to you, is a pretty radical position.

It's not a business. Do you not understand the difference between government and business?

Employees are overpaid , and the way they collect their union benefits is disgusting enough mismanagement as it is. This didn't start happening recently, this is an accumulation of incompetence over the years.

Ok, you assert postal employees are overpaid. What's your evidence?

barfo
 
I explicitly told you what I meant, so I'm not sure why you are surprised.

Your explicit retort was stupid, I'll provide statistical information this time.



Yep, that's what I said. What part of that do you take issue with?

The fact that you like cheap mail but forget at what cost is disturbing.

It is a disgusting to point a gun at someone and force them to do what you want. Populism is an uneducated economic philosophy, and this is what you support.


Sorry, but 'you made a stupid post' isn't an argument. It's just a stupid post. See, I can do that too.

You support a bankrupt institution, I support the world champs of their field. Yeah your position looks pretty stupid.

It's not a business. Do you not understand the difference between government and business?

The USPS makes it illegal to compete against it, thereby killing real BUSINESSES that could do much better. Local private wagon riders used to haul mail to remote areas. Bruh.


Ok, you assert postal employees are overpaid. What's your evidence?

barfo

http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/07/postal-service-stuck-in-the-middle



"Largely as a response to the exorbitant cost of postage in the early 1800s, Congress standardized stamp prices in 1845 at 5 cents for a local letter and 10 cents for one addressed more than 300 miles away.

If we had allowed prices to increase with inflation, it would cost $1.19 to send a first-class letter; $2.38 if it were traveling more than 300 miles. Instead, it costs 46 cents flat.

Congress also mandates that the USPS service all areas of the country once per day—even the rural counties that are a perennially money-losing proposition.

The federal government faces a choice: relinquish control of the USPS and allow it to function as other, less dysfunctional companies do, or just admit that this is a money-losing pet project and start shoveling taxpayer cash directly into the Post Office's coffers."

'"Costs, losses, and debts rose as the volume of mail continued a decline that began in the middle of the last decade. Now the USPS is warning that without help from Congress, it will run out of money by the end of October.


In reason’s May 1991 issue, Carolyn Lochhead explored the postal service’s rising prices, its spiraling labor costs, and delivery trends that were threatening the system’s monopoly. In “The Superior Mail,” Lochhead wrote, “Labor costs at the Postal Service have spun out of control. Postal employees, with salaries averaging $42,000 a year with benefits, are among the world’s best-paid semiskilled workers.…By some estimates, labor represents an astonishing 87 percent of Postal Service costs.”

Twenty years later, postal employees make an average of $83,000 in salary and benefits. They still rank among the highest-paid government employees. But the volume of first-class mail delivered by the USPS has dropped 30 percent since its peak in 2001. The volume of all mail handled has dropped 22 percent since 2006.'

Open up and swallow it whole. I love the way you do me.
 
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Obama’s approval drops as Americans take a dimmer view of his economic policies

What decreases his popularity is his conservative policies about spying on Americans, not his economic policies of preserving jobs. Also, he had many pro-gun people on his side until recently.

But the thread title says the stock market is down, when the Dow is at its all-time high over 14,000.
 
"Costs, losses, and debts rose as the volume of mail continued a decline that began in the middle of the last decade. Now the USPS is warning that without help from Congress, it will run out of money by the end of October.


In reason’s May 1991 issue, Carolyn Lochhead explored the postal service’s rising prices, its spiraling labor costs, and delivery trends that were threatening the system’s monopoly. In “The Superior Mail,” Lochhead wrote, “Labor costs at the Postal Service have spun out of control. Postal employees, with salaries averaging $42,000 a year with benefits, are among the world’s best-paid semiskilled workers.…By some estimates, labor represents an astonishing 87 percent of Postal Service costs.”

Twenty years later, postal employees make an average of $83,000 in salary and benefits. They still rank among the highest-paid government employees. But the volume of first-class mail delivered by the USPS has dropped 30 percent since its peak in 2001. The volume of all mail handled has dropped 22 percent since 2006.

Lochhead focused mostly on alternative methods for delivering pieces of mail or parcels to people’s homes. But advances in technology since 1991 have virtually eliminated the need for certain types of physical mail.

The changes have left the USPS in a bind. Unlike most government agencies, it must pay its own costs through charges for its services; it does not receive federal tax revenue. In November 2012, the USPS reported a net loss of $15.9 billion for the previous year. It defaulted on a $5.6 billion payment into its employees’ retirement health fund. It is forecasting a loss of $7.6 billion for the fiscal year that began last October.

In 2012 the USPS began a program to reduce costs by consolidating mail processing facilities. While that plan is proceeding, efforts to close post offices and to eliminate Saturday deliveries have hit political snags in Congress. An attempt to shut down up to 3,700 low-revenue post offices announced in 2012 was scaled back, instead resulting in reductions in operating hours for thousands of small rural locations."

http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/15/dead-letters
 

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