The super Melo to Portland thread + The Big Blockbuster (3 Viewers)

[Boob-No-More]

I think his rookie defense was better when he was the 5th option on offense....now as a 6 man he's struggling to play defense..Harkless is a lot bigger and stronger than Crabbe but I want Crabbe shooting the shot clock ending shot from deep, not Mo...I think Aminu is the best defender of the 3 and Mo can be when engaged but isn't consistent.....Mo disappointed me in the post season big time...

And Crabbe didn't????

BNM

 

[Sweetriverphil]

This isn't to suggest I want bad offensive players like Aminu or Vonleh taking a lot more shots, but I do wonder if lack of "engagement" on offense for some of these guys leads to less effort on defense?

I buy into this theory. I think we'll get a lot more ball movement from Nurkic from the high post. He's actually a threat to make that shot. Should open up some more open opportunities for the other guys. It's on Aminu and Harkless and Turner to make them though

 

[riverman]

But, the game has changed. The three pointer and hand checking rules have changed that.

This is why all comparisons to that era are kind of skewed......even the scoring titles are not fair for guys like Jerry West who shot lights out from deep before the 3 pt shot....

 

[riverman]

And Crabbe didn't????

BNM

I'm not a huge fan of Crabbe's....I'm not defending his deficiencies as much as questioning his role....I even watched all Crabbe's D league games...I was a huge Batum fan...same Batum that said rookie Allen Crabbe reminded him of Brandon Roy......Crabbe plays lethargic often...I've said in the past he plays like he speaks.....low key...if he's to make a leap this season it will be by improving his defense and handles....I think he's a poor 6 man choice which is where I was going with this anyway...Crabbe also needed surgery immediately following the playoffs....Mo started and was healthy...bricked wide open layups too much

 

[Minstrel]

I think that's true to a point. But I wonder if there is an opportunity cost when those two are taking turns jacking up 20 shots a game? I get the impression that the rest of the guys do a lot of standing around, which seems to result in a lot of isolation basketball, which has proved to be much less effective against playoff defenses, than a more balanced attack -- because the other guys aren't expected to produce much offense (admittedly in part because of limitations to their game) when it comes time for them to step up, when one or the other of Damian or CJ is neutralized, they definitely haven't risen to the occasion, because there's maybe not enough reps to be ready?

This isn't to suggest I want bad offensive players like Aminu or Vonleh taking a lot more shots, but I do wonder if lack of "engagement" on offense for some of these guys leads to less effort on defense?

There's some cause/effect questions around this. Are they passive and unable to step up because they're not being passed to consistently enough, or are they not being passed to consistently enough because they're passive and not great shooters? Is passing even a problem? I feel like Stotts' offense definitely encourages moving the ball and Lillard and McCollum do pass plenty--that they jack so many of the shots seems to me to mostly be other guys (rightly or wrongly) passing them up. With a couple of capable and enthusiastic gunners on the wing and at power forward, you might see the shots balance out more.

The problem is finding those gunners without compromising the defense further.

 

[Natebishop3]

Oh hell no. Clyde Frazier was a GREAT defender. He made 1st Team All Defense 7 times.

Ditto for the Thomas/Dumars duo in DET. Joe D was a lock down defender.

But, the game has changed. The three pointer and hand checking rules have changed that. No one ever won a title playing small ball until someone did. Championships used to be won with a dominant center. These days, the role of center is completely different.

So, just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. It all depends on who you put around those two guards.

BNM

Well there you go..... but why hang your hat on being pioneers?

 

[Strenuus]

THERES NO RUMORS ANYMORE! WHERE ARE THE RUMORS :MARIS61:

 

[Strenuus]

Well there you go..... but why hang your hat on being pioneers?

Because we're

wait for it...

Trailblazers.

 

[riverman]

Neil....hey, I was about to tell you about Mey......click......dial tone....again

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Most of the guys that were favorites of mine have already been dealt.

Jimmy Butler
Paul George (admittedly I wouldn't have dealt CJ for George after all the rumors about LA)

I'd still move him for Porzingis (but I think that's dead since Phil was fired.)

The landscape of the NBA has changed significantly this summer, so I don't have any names right now, but I'm definitely not on the "Dame/CJ or bust!" bandwagon.

@Natebishop3 You have a huge amount of basketball knowledge, experience, and wisdom, and outside a few wacky trade proposals, you're usually spot on. But here, you're just wrong, and you should change your tune. Trading CJ or Dame would be a historic mistake. Why? Lamarcus Aldridge, Paul George, and especially Gordon Hayward for starters...

There are 3 mechanisms to improve your team: draft, trades, and free agency. For the most part, 2nd tier small market teams are shut out of big time free agency. Many here have criticized Neil when they have no clue of what has actually happened, but even I admit that overpaying ET was his greatest mistake. So, even though we attempted to get into Free Agency, it was a mistake. Thus, for us and other teams, there's only 2 avenues to improvement: draft and trades. Building through the draft, especially under the current CBA, is not only appropriate, but essential for us and other small market teams. Sprinkle in a few good trades and some patience, and if you're a bit lucky, you can contend.

HOWEVER, this whole line of team building is dependent on your best players not leaving. When LMA left, it fucked our whole plan. With Gordon Hayward leaving, the jazz team that they've been patiently building is screwed - years of work somewhat down the drain (though they may be able to mitigate their problems if they can agree to a sign-and-trade). So, if you're going to be building through the draft, you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want your star players to commit to the organization. Dame has committed - even to the point of forgoing a player option in the last year of his contract for zero benefit to himself. CJ has just written an article professing his love for Portland on the Player's Tribune. Trading either of these players for a player, NO MATTER HOW GOOD, who might leave would be foolish.

Dame and CJ were on ESPN's "2nd West all-star team." They're both VERY good, but yes, they have their warts. They're not perfect, but they're OURS. We need to get complementary pieces. We filled our gaping hole with Nurkic. We just need to keep improving our team, but not by trading CJ or Dame.

 

[BigGameDamian]

So are we getting Ryan Anderson or is this trade cooling? I wish I could see Neil phone screen.

 

[riverman]

@Natebishop3 You have a huge amount of basketball knowledge, experience, and wisdom, and outside a few wacky trade proposals, you're usually spot on. But here, you're just wrong, and you should change your tune. Trading CJ or Dame would be a historic mistake. Why? Lamarcus Aldridge, Paul George, and especially Gordon Hayward for starters...

There are 3 mechanisms to improve your team: draft, trades, and free agency. For the most part, 2nd tier small market teams are shut out of big time free agency. Many here have criticized Neil when they have no clue of what has actually happened, but even I admit that overpaying ET was his greatest mistake. So, even though we attempted to get into Free Agency, it was a mistake. Thus, for us and other teams, there's only 2 avenues to improvement: draft and trades. Building through the draft, especially under the current CBA, is not only appropriate, but essential for us and other small market teams. Sprinkle in a few good trades and some patience, and if you're a bit lucky, you can contend.

HOWEVER, this whole line of team building is dependent on your best players not leaving. When LMA left, it fucked our whole plan. With Gordon Hayward leaving, the jazz team that they've been patiently building is screwed - years of work somewhat down the drain (though they may be able to mitigate their problems if they can agree to a sign-and-trade). So, if you're going to be building through the draft, you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want your star players to commit to the organization. Dame has committed - even to the point of forgoing a player option in the last year of his contract for zero benefit to himself. CJ has just written an article professing his love for Portland on the Player's Tribune. Trading either of these players for a player, NO MATTER HOW GOOD, who might leave would be foolish.

Dame and CJ were on ESPN's "2nd West all-star team." They're both VERY good, but yes, they have their warts. They're not perfect, but they're OURS. We need to get complementary pieces. We filled our gaping hole with Nurkic. We just need to keep improving our team, but not by trading CJ or Dame.

Great post....!

 

[H.C.]

I didn't say they were a copy, I said it was a similar situation.

You can't admit that they are a suboptimal pairing, because of their defensive deficiencies and need to dominate the ball to be at peak effectiveness?

Ellis has shot above league average from three twice in his career. His rookie year, and his last full season in GSW.
Rest of the time he's been well below league average. He is a non-shooting ball dominate guard who can't play off the ball due to his lack of range.
CJ has shot above league average his entire NBA career. With three straight seasons of over 40% from three.
It allows him to play off-the-ball and still perform at peak effectiveness.

His defense is questionable, but that's where the comparison between CJ & Ellis end.
CJ doesn't need the ball in his hands to impact the game. Unlike Ellis, who has shown over his entire career he needs the ball in his hands to impact the game.

Curry & Ellis didn't work because not only were they both a defensive liability. But Ellis was also a non-shooter who would take the ball out of Curry's hands.
KD took the ball out of Curry's hands, but he also opened up the floor even more for Curry. Where Ellis is basically Aminu out on the perimeter.

He often drew the other team's best guard. As I said, Ginobili was a better defender than Bowen for smaller guards.
I said that advanced stats backed up what everyone except you, including analysts, could see. Not that advanced stats proved it.

Subjective much?
Bowen started for the Spurs because he'd always draw the teams best perimeter player. point or wing it didn't matter. That was how BB made a living.
Manu was a great offensive player, but to say he was also a great defender is pretty silly. He had pieces around him that allowed him to play a certain way on defense.
I don't understand how you don't think those pieces helped prime-Manu defensively.. Which by the way, everyone except you, including analysts can see.

Spoiler

Also by the way. Bowen also would take guards like Nash over Manu.
There is some video on the internet that shows highlights of the series where Nash got checked by Horry.
Certainly looks like Bowen is guarding Nash, not Manu. I guess there goes your argument that Bowen wouldn't take the teams best perimeter offensive player.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

@Natebishop3 You have a huge amount of basketball knowledge, experience, and wisdom, and outside a few wacky trade proposals, you're usually spot on. But here, you're just wrong, and you should change your tune. Trading CJ or Dame would be a historic mistake. Why? Lamarcus Aldridge, Paul George, and especially Gordon Hayward for starters...

There are 3 mechanisms to improve your team: draft, trades, and free agency. For the most part, 2nd tier small market teams are shut out of big time free agency. Many here have criticized Neil when they have no clue of what has actually happened, but even I admit that overpaying ET was his greatest mistake. So, even though we attempted to get into Free Agency, it was a mistake. Thus, for us and other teams, there's only 2 avenues to improvement: draft and trades. Building through the draft, especially under the current CBA, is not only appropriate, but essential for us and other small market teams. Sprinkle in a few good trades and some patience, and if you're a bit lucky, you can contend.

HOWEVER, this whole line of team building is dependent on your best players not leaving. When LMA left, it fucked our whole plan. With Gordon Hayward leaving, the jazz team that they've been patiently building is screwed - years of work somewhat down the drain (though they may be able to mitigate their problems if they can agree to a sign-and-trade). So, if you're going to be building through the draft, you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want your star players to commit to the organization. Dame has committed - even to the point of forgoing a player option in the last year of his contract for zero benefit to himself. CJ has just written an article professing his love for Portland on the Player's Tribune. Trading either of these players for a player, NO MATTER HOW GOOD, who might leave would be foolish.

Dame and CJ were on ESPN's "2nd West all-star team." They're both VERY good, but yes, they have their warts. They're not perfect, but they're OURS. We need to get complementary pieces. We filled our gaping hole with Nurkic. We just need to keep improving our team, but not by trading CJ or Dame.

Dwight agrees with you and while he may not normally be right I think you both are this time.

http://www.csnnw.com/portland-trail...rything-possible-avoid-utahs-hayward-calamity

 

[BonesJones]

Trade Damian or CJ for a guy who is more complimentary (sort of like Golden State did with Curry and Ellis), throw in some of the bloated salaries (if possible) to get your cap in order and start thinking about loading up on assets in a post 2020 league, where the Warriors aren't the colossus astride the world. Of course by then you'll have other colossi to contend with like Milwaukee, the 76ers, Boston, Lakers, and whomever the hell else, but at least you won't be throwing good money after bad in a futile attempt to play catch-up with the Warriors.

Subtracting an all-star level player to add one results in a net gain of 0 all-star players. How do we add one?

 

[Schilly]

@Natebishop3 You have a huge amount of basketball knowledge, experience, and wisdom, and outside a few wacky trade proposals, you're usually spot on. But here, you're just wrong, and you should change your tune. Trading CJ or Dame would be a historic mistake. Why? Lamarcus Aldridge, Paul George, and especially Gordon Hayward for starters...

There are 3 mechanisms to improve your team: draft, trades, and free agency. For the most part, 2nd tier small market teams are shut out of big time free agency. Many here have criticized Neil when they have no clue of what has actually happened, but even I admit that overpaying ET was his greatest mistake. So, even though we attempted to get into Free Agency, it was a mistake. Thus, for us and other teams, there's only 2 avenues to improvement: draft and trades. Building through the draft, especially under the current CBA, is not only appropriate, but essential for us and other small market teams. Sprinkle in a few good trades and some patience, and if you're a bit lucky, you can contend.

HOWEVER, this whole line of team building is dependent on your best players not leaving. When LMA left, it fucked our whole plan. With Gordon Hayward leaving, the jazz team that they've been patiently building is screwed - years of work somewhat down the drain (though they may be able to mitigate their problems if they can agree to a sign-and-trade). So, if you're going to be building through the draft, you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want your star players to commit to the organization. Dame has committed - even to the point of forgoing a player option in the last year of his contract for zero benefit to himself. CJ has just written an article professing his love for Portland on the Player's Tribune. Trading either of these players for a player, NO MATTER HOW GOOD, who might leave would be foolish.

Dame and CJ were on ESPN's "2nd West all-star team." They're both VERY good, but yes, they have their warts. They're not perfect, but they're OURS. We need to get complementary pieces. We filled our gaping hole with Nurkic. We just need to keep improving our team, but not by trading CJ or Dame.

Collins being a legit "Franchise Building Block" is going to be so important to this team, like could be completely pivotal.

 

[Reep]

I would challenge you to show me a time where a combo like Dame/CJ has worked as a formula for a championship.

Two score-first, sub-6'6, poor defense guards that like to have the ball in their hands.

Show me where that has been a recipe for success.

Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier maybe?

It has never happened. You have a point there.

I would not actively shop either, but if I had a chance to get another guard who could create his own shot and play much better defence in trade for CJ, and said guard wanted to be in Portland, I think this would increase the teams chances of winning a title.

But, since I haven't seen that opportunity, we have to work with what we have. I think Dame and CJ could be the starting backcourt of a contending team, but every other player would have to be a plus defender. True that it has never been done, but it could be. Much less likely though if you fill up the rest of the roster with minus defenders.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Subtracting an all-star level player to add one results in a net gain of 0 all-star players. How do we add one?

We won't. At best you can hope Nurkic develops into one or that Collins becomes one. Barring that, you start thinking about what takes to compete in a few years and structure your roster, contracts and assets to take advantage of the eventual Golden State decline.

 

[BonesJones]

Best part about this is 3 posts above is him saying, 'and people give me shit about my trade ideas.'

That's because you have some fascination with blowing up the team to make us awful and we get trade banged MASSIVELY most of the time.

In this case, we take on MASSIVE contracts that hinder our flexibility because we lose assets and retaining money, and in the off chance that we get the #1 pick from the NYK and that player turns out to be as good as LeBron James, we have little room to improve because we dissected the team of players and assets so we have no way of putting players around them. Then you'll complain why we don't have flexibility. This also assumes said player turns into Lebron James from day 1.

So essentially we blow up the team for a 5% chance at getting a franchise changing player that can contribute at a championship caliber immediately to match with CJ and Dame...

Or do you wanna trade them too and play around nurk and our #1 pick since they are younger and closer in age with Collins and Swanigan as well?

How the fuck do we blow up the team? Jeez dude. I made a suggestion 4 days ago involving a 4 for 2 and you changed it to a 6 for 1 and made shit up. You're yet another homer that overvalues what we have.. I'm not even gonna participate with you rook. Bye now.

 

[Strenuus]

We won't. At best you can hope Nurkic develops into one or that Collins becomes one. Barring that, you start thinking about what takes to compete in a few years and structure your roster, contracts and assets to take advantage of the eventual Golden State decline.

ALL OF THIS.

 

[Hobbesarable]

How the fuck do we blow up the team? Jeez dude. I made a suggestion 4 days ago involving a 4 for 2 and you changed it to a 6 for 1 and made shit up. You're yet another homer that overvalues what we have.. I'm not even gonna participate with you rook. Bye now.

Haha

#triggered

 

[e_blazer]

Welp, this rumor has now passed the survivability threshold with nothing happening. Time to call it:

 

[Strenuus]

How the fuck do we blow up the team? Jeez dude. I made a suggestion 4 days ago involving a 4 for 2 and you changed it to a 6 for 1 and made shit up. You're yet another homer that overvalues what we have.. I'm not even gonna participate with you rook. Bye now.

lol. Didn't you get mad at HCP for calling you a rook?

 

[illmatic99]

How the fuck do we blow up the team? Jeez dude. I made a suggestion 4 days ago involving a 4 for 2 and you changed it to a 6 for 1 and made shit up. You're yet another homer that overvalues what we have.. I'm not even gonna participate with you rook. Bye now.

Not sure I've ever seen a mod respond to another poster like this.

 

[BonesJones]

I can't fault the Pacers much for not finding anyone out side our big 3 particularly appealing. Hark is probably on the best contract. But 3 first round picks?

Sabonis is looking like a scrub at best. Oladiop is another average player making 20+ million. I'd have taken the 3 draft picks + Harkless over that.

This may turn out for the best though, if George goes to LA after one year anyway.

Our players don't have much trade value? Shocker.

 

[Natebishop3]

Subtracting an all-star level player to add one results in a net gain of 0 all-star players. How do we add one?

We have a shit ton of guards. Someone like Paul George would have been perfect. There is a lot of balance to a Dame/George/Nurk franchise. Unfortunately that didn't work out, and I wouldn't have offered CJ anyway under the current circumstances.

 

[BonesJones]

Not sure I've ever seen a mod respond to another poster like this.

I have.

 

[BonesJones]

We have a shit ton of guards. Someone like Paul George would have been perfect. There is a lot of balance to a Dame/George/Nurk franchise. Unfortunately that didn't work out, and I wouldn't have offered CJ anyway under the current circumstances.

There's a lot of balance of we had forwards if Jae Crowder and Amir Johnson too. That's type of setup is what I'm after.

 

[Minstrel]

Bowen started for the Spurs because he'd always draw the teams best perimeter player. point or wing it didn't matter. That was how BB made a living.
Manu was a great offensive player, but to say he was also a great defender is pretty silly. He had pieces around him that allowed him to play a certain way on defense.
I don't understand how you don't think those pieces helped prime-Manu defensively..

Yeah, those pieces (like Tim Duncan) helped Bowen too. It's silly to pretend that it's one or the other--either you were good or your teammates helped you. You can be good/great and helped by having good teammates around you. I fully agree that having a great defensive system and good teammates helped Ginobili--just as he helped them by being an excellent defender. Ginobili was a star because he was a very good offensive and very good defensive player. He wasn't an overpowering enough offensive player that he would have been a star as a bad defender. He was a lot like Andre Iguodala--not a superstar scorer, but did everything well, on offense and defense. He wasn't at Iguodala's level defensively, but he was still very good.

 

[BonesJones]

lol. Didn't you get mad at HCP for calling you a rook?

Yeah, I wasnt pestering the hell out of him though.