The Untouchables: who's your fourth guy?

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Who should we send after Al Capone along with Roy, LMA and Oden?

  • Joel

    Votes: 3 5.9%

  • Rudy

    Votes: 12 23.5%

  • Bayless

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Batum

    Votes: 36 70.6%
  • Total voters
    51

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Idog1976 said:
fair enough. I'm not mad about it or anything, but if Joel isn't untouchable can you explain to me how Battier isn't fair value? Battier is twice the player Joel is
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I think this is what most people disagree with you on. Battier is not twice the player, and I don't see how one can come to that conclusion.

PERs the last two years (15.0 is average)

Battier: 11.7, 10.7 (this year)
Przybilla: 12.3, 15.4 (this year)

Battier is a great perimeter defender, Przybilla is a great interior defender. Both are great team defenders, but the team defense of big men tends to be more impactful.

I realize that Battier does things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but they are mostly on the defensive end and I really don't think Przybilla is lacking in defense. Even if one posits "intangibles" for Battier (and none for Przybilla), he needs a significant amount just to catch Przybilla, let alone surpass him...let alone being "twice the player."
 
Idog1976 said:
Ah that makes sense. And I agree about Rudy. It seems to me he will go when we find the PG we want (a young guy of course).

Rudy for Flynn + filler? Rudy for Mike Conley? Rudy + Bayless + Outlaw for Conley and Gasol (is that overpaying do you think?).
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Seriously? Every thread that goes over 30-some posts becomes Imaginary Trade Land. I was joking earlier about an Imaginary Trade Sticky Thread, but Kee-rist.

/End or rant
 
Minstrel said:
I think this is what most people disagree with you on. Battier is not twice the player, and I don't see how one can come to that conclusion.

PERs the last two years (15.0 is average)

Battier: 11.7, 10.7 (this year)
Przybilla: 12.3, 15.4 (this year)

Battier is a great perimeter defender, Przybilla is a great interior defender. Both are great team defenders, but the team defense of big men tends to be more impactful.

I realize that Battier does things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but they are mostly on the defensive end and I really don't think Przybilla is lacking in defense. Even if one posits "intangibles" for Battier (and none for Przybilla), he needs a significant amount just to catch Przybilla, let alone surpass him...let alone being "twice the player."
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Battier's a good perimeter defender who seems to be a bit overrated IMO. Both Roy and Kobe Bryant had very few problems against him in the playoffs. Is Battier better defensively than Batum next year? I'm not sure about that one. Certainly not worthing giving up Przy for in Imaginary Trade Land.
 
Idog1976 said:
fair enough. I'm not mad about it or anything, but if Joel isn't untouchable can you explain to me how Battier isn't fair value? Battier is twice the player Joel is and we could use his experience and shooting at the 3.
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Battier is nothing special. There's no way he's twice the player that Joel is. Minstrel goes into some of the reasons in his post.

He didn't mention, though, that Battier is 31 years old--over a year older than Joel. He did not mention that Battier's field goal percentage has gone down in each of the last three years and that his PER has gone down in FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS. All of that shows a downward trend that I'm not sure he'll be able to turn around.

That his PER has gone down for five straight seasons--when it peaked at a just-above-average 15.3--is reason enough for me to be uninterested in having him as a Blazer, period. To have to even explain why he's not twice the player that Joel is seems like a waste of time.

But I have time to waste sometimes. So there you go.

Ed O.
 
PapaG said:
Battier's a good perimeter defender who seems to be a bit overrated IMO. Both Roy and Kobe Bryant had very few problems against him in the playoffs. Is Battier better defensively than Batum next year? I'm not sure about that one. Certainly not worthing giving up Przy for in Imaginary Trade Land.
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In Imaginary Trade Land, our team has already been gutted from the inside out. I'm pretty sure only Roy is left from our Original Team, and even he is on the trading block for Lebron.
 
Ed O said:
He didn't mention, though, that Battier is 31 years old--over a year older than Joel. He did not mention that Battier's field goal percentage has gone down in each of the last three years and that his PER has gone down in FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS. All of that shows a downward trend that I'm not sure he'll be able to turn around.
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That's harsh.
 
TripTango said:
In Imaginary Trade Land, our team has already been gutted from the inside out. I'm pretty sure only Roy is left from our Original Team, and even he is on the trading block for Lebron.
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The biggest acquisition of the offseason IMO in Imaginary Trade Land was how New Orleans gave up Chris Paul for Bayless/Outlaw/Aldridge. I was shocked about that one, and the Imaginary Trade Land team is going to be unstoppable from the perimeter and now has two All-Stars in the back court. Imaginary Kevin Pritchard really outdid himself on that one, but I do worry about a low post scorer..
 
PapaG said:
Seriously? Every thread that goes over 30-some posts becomes Imaginary Trade Land. I was joking earlier about an Imaginary Trade Sticky Thread, but Kee-rist.

/End or rant
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I was responding to something that another poster said and actually answering their question and being reasonable. How about the threads you turned into imaginary Vulcan conspiracy land? Or imaginary valuation of Hinrich or any other random position you take in threads that is merely you spouting your opinion based on facts you see. I was just doing the same. I don't feel this team is complete, when someone busts out a trade idea or mentions a player is likely to be traded the immediate question that rises in my mind is for who?
 
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PapaG said:
Battier's a good perimeter defender who seems to be a bit overrated IMO. Both Roy and Kobe Bryant had very few problems against him in the playoffs. Is Battier better defensively than Batum next year? I'm not sure about that one. Certainly not worthing giving up Przy for in Imaginary Trade Land.
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He might be a little overrated, but I think he's still a pretty elite wing defender. Roy and Kobe are transcendent scorers...no one can stop them. I disagree that they had "few problems"...they got their numbers, but had to work very hard for them. Roy's scoring efficiency took a minor hit. I'm not sure if Kobe's did, since I don't know where to find advanced stats for single series (Roy only played one series, so his overall playoff numbers do the trick).

Anyway, Battier is essentially entering his Bruce Bowen dotage. Not a productive player, a very good defender and potentially a little overrated due to that being his calling card. I don't think Battier would represent an upgrade on Batum.
 
Minstrel said:
I think this is what most people disagree with you on. Battier is not twice the player, and I don't see how one can come to that conclusion.

PERs the last two years (15.0 is average)

Battier: 11.7, 10.7 (this year)
Przybilla: 12.3, 15.4 (this year)

Battier is a great perimeter defender, Przybilla is a great interior defender. Both are great team defenders, but the team defense of big men tends to be more impactful.

I realize that Battier does things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but they are mostly on the defensive end and I really don't think Przybilla is lacking in defense. Even if one posits "intangibles" for Battier (and none for Przybilla), he needs a significant amount just to catch Przybilla, let alone surpass him...let alone being "twice the player."
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Thanks for the reasonable response. I feel that battier's clutch abilities and anchoring of the perimeter along with range out to damn near half court on the three ball make him a great vet to have around the team and a good person to take up some minutes while batum continues to learn the game and get his 24 or so minutes a game. I feel like I would rather have a banging back-up PF and LMA as the front line for scoring reasons. I'm someone who values inside scoring more then most do in the moder hand check NBA.

There's no arguing with the stats. I feel Battiers impact as a starting SF would be much larger the Joels 16 or so minutes at center and I guess that's where I part ways with most people.
 
Ed O said:
Battier is nothing special. There's no way he's twice the player that Joel is. Minstrel goes into some of the reasons in his post.

He didn't mention, though, that Battier is 31 years old--over a year older than Joel. He did not mention that Battier's field goal percentage has gone down in each of the last three years and that his PER has gone down in FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS. All of that shows a downward trend that I'm not sure he'll be able to turn around.

That his PER has gone down for five straight seasons--when it peaked at a just-above-average 15.3--is reason enough for me to be uninterested in having him as a Blazer, period. To have to even explain why he's not twice the player that Joel is seems like a waste of time.

But I have time to waste sometimes. So there you go.

Ed O.
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Thanks for the reasonable response see mine to Minstrel. I think you raise good points I just look at things differently. I regret the "twice as good" statement as that is clearly hyperbole. Saying he would have twice the impact on the team (which I believe to be true) would have been more accurate. Again see the response to Minstrel.
 
Idog1976 said:
I'm actually legitimately curious why you personally thought it was a bad idea. A number of the people who hated it and slammed me for it (as opposed to disagreeing with it) didn't really say why they hated it with such a passion.
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I don't think Battier is anywhere close to being twice the player Joel is. Minstrel and Ed O covered the rest for me.
 
Idog1976 said:
I was responding to something that another poster said and actually answering their question and being reasonable. How about the threads you turned into imaginary Vulcan conspiracy land? Or imaginary valuation of Hinrich or any other random position you take in threads that is merely you spouting your opinion based on facts you see. I was just doing the same. I don't feel this team is complete, when someone busts out a trade idea or mentions a player is likely to be traded the immediate question is for who.
Click to expand...

You mean the thread I started where I asked if the Vulcans were behind the Roy negotions? Is that the one I turned into an imaginary Vulcan conspiracy? The thread that I dedicated to the Vulcan conspiracy theory?

http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143961
 
yuyuza1 said:
I don't think Battier is anywhere close to being twice the player Joel is. Minstrel and Ed O covered the rest for me.
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It's a "legitimate response" now to say that Battier isn't twice the player as Przy. Pointing out an illegitimate argument? Not so much.
 
Minstrel said:
He might be a little overrated, but I think he's still a pretty elite wing defender. Roy and Kobe are transcendent scorers...no one can stop them. I disagree that they had "few problems"...they got their numbers, but had to work very hard for them. Roy's scoring efficiency took a minor hit. I'm not sure if Kobe's did, since I don't know where to find advanced stats for single series (Roy only played one series, so his overall playoff numbers do the trick).

Anyway, Battier is essentially entering his Bruce Bowen dotage. Not a productive player, a very good defender and potentially a little overrated due to that being his calling card. I don't think Battier would represent an upgrade on Batum.
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I can't agree with the Bruce Bowen comment. That guy absolutely killed us during the Houston series. He changed momentum in that series so many times with clutch three's. Artest is a vaunted defender and yet Battier was usually asked to guard him. If Artest is such a huge pickup for LA then Battier's perimeter defense would have to be a huge add. Even if he is backing up Batum I still feel he would be asked to play significant minutes. He is also insurance if Rudy is hurt to play spot SG minutes. I think that Rudy will eventually be traded, possibly soon, and I feel the same about Bayless. I think those two could bring back a real prospect PG at the trade deadline or high lottery pick from a bottom dweller.
 
PapaG said:
It's a "legitimate response" now to say that Battier isn't twice the player as Przy. Pointing out an illegitimate argument? Not so much.
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what are you saying there?
 
Idog1976 said:
I can't agree with the Bruce Bowen comment. That guy absolutely killed us during the Houston series. He changed momentum in that series so many times with clutch three's. Artest is a vaunted defender and yet Battier was usually asked to guard him. If Artest is such a huge pickup for LA then Battier's perimeter defense would have to be a huge add. Even if he is backing up Batum I still feel he would be asked to play significant minutes. He is also insurance if Rudy is hurt to play spot SG minutes. I think that Rudy will eventually be traded, possibly soon, and I feel the same about Bayless. I think those two could bring back a real prospect PG at the trade deadline or high lottery pick from a bottom dweller.
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So did Von Wafer. Just sayin'

I like Battier quite a bit, but more for his leadership and BBIQ than his on-court play if that makes any sense. I think he would make a tremendous coach if he chose to go that route.
 
MrSelfDestruct said:
So did Von Wafer. Just sayin'

I like Battier quite a bit, but more for his leadership and BBIQ than his on-court play if that makes any sense. I think he would make a tremendous coach if he chose to go that route.
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One of the roles of a riding into the sunset vet is to be a sort of player coach. I think Battier could teach this team a ton. I know Von Wafer killed us LOL that's just embarassing and my mind kind of blanked that out. I saw Battier hit clutch shots against alot of teams it was just magnified during the playoffs. Von Wafer lit up Rudy and Blake I believe which is frustrating as to what that says about their defense.
 
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