The Veritable Quandary to Close - say it ain't so?!?!?! (1 Viewer)

[riverman]

Unfortunately there are only 2 cities left in California protected by the Historical Society from destroying old architecture and installing neon signs, etc..Nevada City and Santa Cruz...if they build on that site in Portland, it is obviously not protected for any historical reason. I watched old town Sioux City Iowa get destroyed when I was young...beautiful architecture and cobblestone streets, sculptures, street cars, etc. all built by Capone in his heyday...now it's steel and glass high rises. Sad but it happens.

 

[Denny Crane]

You really don't get it, do you. The restaurant is NOT on the land the government is building on. They were NOT forced to vacate. They chose to, probably because the construction noise next door would be a detriment to business. But that's a risk every business that doesn't own all neighboring land runs.

barfo

Again with the crystal ball. You're a mind reader.

The government is doing harm. Get it?

 

[riverman]

Again with the crystal ball. You're a mind reader.

The government is doing harm. Get it?

Somebody has to take care of the crystal ball, barfo is a logical choice..they'll never find it

 

[Denny Crane]

Somebody has to take care of the crystal ball, barfo is a logical choice..they'll never find it

Looking at the crystal ball.

 

[riverman]

Looking at the crystal ball.

I'd have at least taken off the tie first

 

[barfo]

Again with the crystal ball. You're a mind reader.

The government is doing harm. Get it?

Well, I suppose your position is that the government shouldn't build a courthouse. Anywhere. Ever. Because no matter when and where they build it, it might have a negative impact on someone.

And that would be bad. Government bad. Bad government.

So we don't need courthouses. By extension, we don't need post offices, or roads, or military bases, or really anything else. Because they might inconvenience someone.

But private enterprise does not inconvenience anyone when they build things. So that's ok.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, I suppose your position is that the government shouldn't build a courthouse. Anywhere. Ever. Because no matter when and where they build it, it might have a negative impact on someone.

And that would be bad. Government bad. Bad government.

So we don't need courthouses. By extension, we don't need post offices, or roads, or military bases, or really anything else. Because they might inconvenience someone.

But private enterprise does not inconvenience anyone when they build things. So that's ok.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

barfo

Straw man - Your position must be that all we need is courthouses everywhere. One on every lot in the city. Or maybe roads or military bases. See how silly you are?

My position is they should have sold or leased the land to the restaurant, or used it to make a park or something. Government is supposed to serve the people (I don't mean serving food), not doing harm (put restaurants out of business, people out of work).

If the government needs a courthouse, it should buy the land and build it, not own ridiculous amounts of land for no purpose. Where and how they build it should have no negative impact on the people. Like maybe they should build that courthouse next to the dump.

"Government good, restaurant evil!"
-- barfo

 

[Further]

Straw man - Your position must be that all we need is courthouses everywhere. One on every lot in the city. Or maybe roads or military bases. See how silly you are?

My position is they should have sold or leased the land to the restaurant, or used it to make a park or something. Government is supposed to serve the people (I don't mean serving food), not doing harm (put restaurants out of business, people out of work).

If the government needs a courthouse, it should buy the land and build it, not own ridiculous amounts of land for no purpose. Where and how they build it should have no negative impact on the people. Like maybe they should build that courthouse next to the dump.

"Government good, restaurant evil!"
-- barfo

If I remember correctly, the govt. owned that land for over 100 years because it was necessary when building the Hawthorne bridge after the Morrison bridge burnt down. It was an awkward lot because of the bridge on/offramps. But as the city built up, and space became more precious, even awkward lots became more desirable.

It's too bad the VQ is shutting it's doors, but I don't think that the restaurant could have afforded to lease the adjacent lot long term as you suggest, knowing downtown costs that would have been prohibitive for a porch. But I don't know that to be the case, it's just conjecture.

 

[Denny Crane]

If I remember correctly, the govt. owned that land for over 100 years because it was necessary when building the Hawthorne bridge after the Morrison bridge burnt down. It was an awkward lot because of the bridge on/offramps. But as the city built up, and space became more precious, even awkward lots became more desirable.

It's too bad the VQ is shutting it's doors, but I don't think that the restaurant could have afforded to lease the adjacent lot long term as you suggest, knowing downtown costs that would have been prohibitive for a porch. But I don't know that to be the case, it's just conjecture.

What did the government charge for the porch all along?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Does anyone know what will happen to all the art and stone work in the old courthouse?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You bitches high jacked my thread and made it a cock fight.

Classic S2 at its finest. I love this place.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

You bitches high jacked my thread and made it a cock fight.

Classic S2 at its finest. I love this place.

Denny is an expert on movies he's never seen and restaurants he's never been to.

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny is an expert on movies he's never seen and restaurants he's never been to.

And you are the expert movie critic and the oceans being dead.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

And you are the expert movie critic and the oceans being dead.

Thank you!

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You guys are so elitist and racist.

But Denny is God so you lose.

 

[Denny Crane]

You guys are so elitist and racist.

But Denny is God so you lose.

Actually, God wants to be Denny Crane.

 

[barfo]

You bitches high jacked my thread and made it a cock fight.

It's what we do.

barfo

 

[Further]

What did the government charge for the porch all along?

I don't know, but the area 20 years ago had a bunch of vacant lots, a decade ago had a couple and now really has zero that I can think of. So, whatever the city was charging would have likewise been affected substantially by the extreme growth. I do know the courthouse is expected to cost 250M. But just because I don't have all the information about past lease amounts or any of the financial breakdowns doesn't mean i can't make an educated guess that a mid-sized restaurant couldn't afford a property like that for it's porch.





Back to the issue at hand. I have had several good friends who have worked at the VQ over the years and not only will miss the great food and service, but also the friendships and atmosphere. PDX has become such a food mecca that the VQ had gotten lost in my restaurant patronage list in the past few years but their duck confit spring rolls and their osso bucco were a couple of my favorite dishes for years.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't know, but the area 20 years ago had a bunch of vacant lots, a decade ago had a couple and now really has zero that I can think of. So, whatever the city was charging would have likewise been affected substantially by the extreme growth. I do know the courthouse is expected to cost 250M. But just because I don't have all the information about past lease amounts or any of the financial breakdowns doesn't mean i can't make an educated guess that a mid-sized restaurant couldn't afford a property like that for it's porch.

So you're saying the restaurant survived 45 years of building on all those lots. I don't think the city was charging anything, FWIW. If they owned all those lots and sold them, then perfect!

Like I said, they could spend that $250M building out by the dump. It likely wouldn't cause businesses to close up. If not by the dump, perhaps in some industrial area so it won't be a blight.

Back to the issue at hand. I have had several good friends who have worked at the VQ over the years and not only will miss the great food and service, but also the friendships and atmosphere. PDX has become such a food mecca that the VQ had gotten lost in my restaurant patronage list in the past few years but their duck confit spring rolls and their osso bucco were a couple of my favorite dishes for years.

 

[Denny Crane]

It's what we do.

barfo

"Pirating" the thread is a better term for it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Have a drink of water, barfo.

 

[Further]

So you're saying the restaurant survived 45 years of building on all those lots. I don't think the city was charging anything, FWIW. If they owned all those lots and sold them, then perfect!

Like I said, they could spend that $250M building out by the dump. It likely wouldn't cause businesses to close up. If not by the dump, perhaps in some industrial area so it won't be a blight.

To fill you in, this is not a really great location. The restaurant succeeded for a long time, but go up a few blocks or over a few and prices soar. But because of this location being all by itself on an island of on/offramps. Not saying the spot isn't worth quite a bit or that plenty of business wouldn't have loved to be there, but this is actually a pretty good spot for a courthouse from a land-use perspective. It's in the downtown, by the jail, yet will be separated from all the other business in the area due to it's awkward location. It's not a case of govt using the most expensive land, but still it's certainly not cheap either.

 

[Denny Crane]

To fill you in, this is not a really great location. The restaurant succeeded for a long time, but go up a few blocks or over a few and prices soar. But because of this location being all by itself on an island of on/offramps. Not saying the spot isn't worth quite a bit or that plenty of business wouldn't have loved to be there, but this is actually a pretty good spot for a courthouse from a land-use perspective. It's in the downtown, by the jail, yet will be separated from all the other business in the area due to it's awkward location. It's not a case of govt using the most expensive land, but still it's certainly not cheap either.

Sounds like a better spot for a park.

 

[Further]

Sounds like a better spot for a park.

No, there is a large waterfront park on the other side of the offramps that stretches the entire width of downtown, and the "Park Blocks" are up 6 blocks the other way. There are also three little courtyard style parks within 5 blocks that I can think of. Honestly I don't think it would make a good place for a park at all, and I'm someone who generally supports more parks.

 

[Denny Crane]

No, there is a large waterfront park on the other side of the offramps that stretches the entire width of downtown, and the "Park Blocks" are up 6 blocks the other way. There are also three little courtyard style parks within 5 blocks that I can think of. Honestly I don't think it would make a good place for a park at all, and I'm someone who generally supports more parks.

If it's empty and government using it kills a business, then it's better suited as a park Just plant trees (or whatever) and leave it be.

Government's interests should come last. The Peoples' first.

 

[Further]

If it's empty and government using it kills a business, then it's better suited as a park Just plant trees (or whatever) and leave it be.

Government's interests should come last. The Peoples' first.

So the govt should spend the extra money over the long run to operate several different courthouses and handle all the transports rather than use a piece of land they own that displaces one business with perhaps 20 employees? I thought you were tired of govt operating inefficiently and spending taxpayer money on repetitive services. This consolidates, and it's not even a case of imminent domain or anything like that. It's simply making use of their property for the betterment of the city.

Now, there most likely is some bullshit built in there too, I don't actually trust govt or business, but theoretically this is actually a prudent use of public land, a good use of taxpayer money and evidence of a more efficient government.

 

[Denny Crane]

So the govt should spend the extra money over the long run to operate several different courthouses and handle all the transports rather than use a piece of land they own that displaces one business with perhaps 20 employees? I thought you were tired of govt operating inefficiently and spending taxpayer money on repetitive services. This consolidates, and it's not even a case of imminent domain or anything like that. It's simply making use of their property for the betterment of the city.

Now, there most likely is some bullshit built in there too, I don't actually trust govt or business, but theoretically this is actually a prudent use of public land, a good use of taxpayer money and evidence of a more efficient government.

Or maybe the government can build one big courthouse out by the dump where nobody wants to build or run a business. $250M they're planning to take from yours and everyone else's paychecks there can go to making that eyesore a little less of a blight.

It would be better for the restaurant if it were a case of imminent domain. At least the owner would be compensated for his business being ruined.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

It's what we do.

barfo

Oh, I know it is. It's par for the course - I'm guilty of it all the time. It's just I don't start many threads, so it stands out more. Plus, I'm pretty disappointed VQ is closing.

 

[Further]

Or maybe the government can build one big courthouse out by the dump where nobody wants to build or run a business. $250M they're planning to take from yours and everyone else's paychecks there can go to making that eyesore a little less of a blight.

It would be better for the restaurant if it were a case of imminent domain. At least the owner would be compensated for his business being ruined.

So now you want all the businesses that are downtown and built off the fact that the courthouses are down there to go out of business. You want all the lawyers, all the police, all the guards, all the Portland Citizens to have to drive a half hour away and spend all that extra money commuting so as to not use land that is already owned by the govt. You want all the extra prisoner transport busses and jail trips to come out of my pocket to keep a porch alive? I know you are trying to defend a position from a long ways away and aren't familiar with PDX, but this is actually a pretty good idea. The nearest dump would be 20 min without traffic and 45min-1h with traffic. I understand feeling bad for the VQ, they are getting a raw deal having to close, but there are citywide interests that affect thousands of people every day and unfortunately causing the closing of one business might be the best option. And if they moved to the dump, what about the taco stand or the vacuum store that would need to be displaced out that way.

Now, in total honesty I'm not sure that consolidating is that important. Safety-standard improvements are required which is the impetus for this build, but I'm really not sure how the total financials would break down. The nice thing is that with the new courthouses being built, it should free up some more prime real-estate for other businesses to move into or build on where some of the old courthouses are. But who knows what the govt will actually do with those properties. Some of those courthouses are in extremely prime locations.

 

[Further]

Oh, I know it is. It's par for the course - I'm guilty of it all the time. It's just I don't start many threads, so it stands out more. Plus, I'm pretty disappointed VQ is closing.

Sorry, I can stop bickering. Really, I can.

What was your favorite dish at the VQ?