Politics These tariffs are the biggest pain in my ass

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If Trump does not manage to correct the trade issues with China, is there a Democrat ass kisser on the horizon that will even acknowledge the issues?
 
MarAzul said:
If Trump does not manage to correct the trade issues with China, is there a Democrat ass kisser on the horizon that will even acknowledge the issues?
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Honestly the thing that makes me interested in Yang is that he seems to be the only one realistic about automation and manufacturing. If the US wants to compete with China and uphold our product quality, and working environment we need to upskill our workers AND automate the heck out of mfg process.

I think, “If”, I were in charge, Id be spending like crazy on R&D for helping US manufacturers reduce their costs, and compete with China that way. If our product is cheaper and better, guess who that hurts the most. China. I have really mixed feeling about UBI, but I do think Yang is the only one who seems to acknowledge that Automation / AI / Robotics is the way for the US MFG’s to compete.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Id be spending like crazy on R&D for helping US manufacturers
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I don't think the Government needs to do anything about R&D except encourage it with fair tax policy. What is needed is if the China can sell here, then we can sell there without giving them the controlling interest and proprietary secrets to do so.
Probably need to level the field in what a worker costs also, but that will not come for a long time yet. First, the big trade issues must be leveled.
 
oldfisherman said:
History has shown trade wars increase the risk of real war. Taxing imports and exports does not always ends well.

Most notable, our revolutionary war. High tariffs lead to the Boston tea party. Rather than compromising on a workable solution, the high tariffs resulted in a real war.

Remembered by few, the USA tariff act of 1930 was very similar to Trumps tariffs. The tariffs were meant to increase and protect USA jobs. As the other countries retaliated, tensions escalated. The tariff wars continued for years. These tariffs are considered the kindling that feed the flames that lead to world war 2.

Of course there were other factors that caused these 2 wars. But tariff wars do not promote world peace. Just the opposite, by increasing the tension between countries.
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The Japanese crushed and massacred Chinese citizens while FDR has no other choice but to terminate oil transactions with the Japanese rather than quick strike Japanese assets like the Syrian problem a few years ago. We were the prime oil supplier to that empire. They were war like and considered themselves invincible. Their goals were to supplement their expansion in the Dutch East Indies and to eliminate European and US interests. The Japanese were a very dangerous foe due to their naval and air power buildup
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
If the US wants to compete with China and uphold our product quality, and working environment we need to upskill our workers
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That is a rather strange statement all by itself. I have done a fair amount of automation in my time. The objective of most efforts, and the result, usually is a large reduction in workers.
One effort I did, resulted in reducing one specific task from about 1000 workers at one company, to around 150 when fully implemented.
 
MarAzul said:
That is a rather strange statement all by itself. I have done a fair amount of automation in my time. The objective of most efforts, and the result, usually is a large reduction in workers.
One effort I did, resulted in reducing one specific task from about 1000 workers at one company, to around 150 when fully implemented.
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I work in robotics and automation, my entire job is developing systems for it. However one of the things we aim to do is not replace workers, but increase their skillsets. Automate tasks that is just “labor”, and teach their employees new more advanced skills in the process. It helps the employee have more future proof skillsets, helps the company have employees with more knowledge, and to lower the cost of their production cycles.

The objective has always been ROI and decreasing costs, but it doesnt mean you have to screw over employees in the process.

Of course automation has generally meant lets fire workers, but theres a major push in the industry to change that view.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I work in robotics and automation, my entire job is developing systems for it. However one of the things we aim to do is not replace workers, but increase their skillsets. Automate tasks that is just “labor”, and teach their employees new more advanced skills in the process. It helps the employee have more future proof skillsets, helps the company have employees with more knowledge, and to lower the cost of their production cycles.

The objective has always been ROI and decreasing costs, but it doesnt mean you have to screw over employees in the process.

Of course automation has generally meant lets fire workers, but theres a major push in the industry to change that view.
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Well good luck with it. A company would need to be quite large to reabsorb 850 employees into an entirely different job, even retrained.
These guys were the top tier Teamster Union employees too. Not all that willing to change to a lower tier.
 
stampedehero said:
The Japanese crushed and massacred Chinese citizens while FDR has no other choice but to terminate oil transactions with the Japanese rather than quick strike Japanese assets like the Syrian problem a few years ago. We were the prime oil supplier to that empire. They were war like and considered themselves invincible. Their goals were to supplement their expansion in the Dutch East Indies and to eliminate European and US interests. The Japanese were a very dangerous foe due to their naval and air power buildup
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While true, Japan did not invade China untill 1945. The trade war started in 1930. At one point, world wide trade declined by 66%.

Not defending Japan's horrible actions. But we pushed them into a corner with only two options. Submit to our demands. Or invade countries that had the natural resources their island nation lacked, and needed to survive.

You can only push other countries around for so long, and they start to fight back.
 
oldfisherman said:
While true, Japan did not invade China untill 1945. The trade war started in 1930. At one point, world wide trade declined by 66%.

Not defending Japan's horrible actions. But we pushed them into a corner with only two options. Submit to our demands. Or invade countries that had the natural resources their island nation lacked, and needed to survive.

You can only push other countries around for so long, and they start to fight back.
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1936, I think.

I do not think Trump is pushing China unjustly, more like a necessity. I can't quite grasp why China does not acquiesces, other than for counting on support from Democrats in the US.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Honestly the thing that makes me interested in Yang is that he seems to be the only one realistic about automation and manufacturing. If the US wants to compete with China and uphold our product quality, and working environment we need to upskill our workers AND automate the heck out of mfg process.

I think, “If”, I were in charge, Id be spending like crazy on R&D for helping US manufacturers reduce their costs, and compete with China that way. If our product is cheaper and better, guess who that hurts the most. China. I have really mixed feeling about UBI, but I do think Yang is the only one who seems to acknowledge that Automation / AI / Robotics is the way for the US MFG’s to compete.
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When Japan and other countries have proven the American consumer will spend more for products that are innovative. People were paying more money for generators that have low noise levels. Consumers went from Detroit Iron to Japanese Auto's. Its innovation in the world market place that drives industries.
Innovation and support of manufacturing for the purpose of competing should be an American priority. This what will pave the way for a great future for our kids and grandkids.
If an American company sold a quality bamboo utensil I'd pay more it. I payed more a a Traeger grill because of innovation, and other things.
 
oldfisherman said:
While true, Japan did not invade China untill 1945. The trade war started in 1930. At one point, world wide trade declined by 66%.

Not defending Japan's horrible actions. But we pushed them into a corner with only two options. Submit to our demands. Or invade countries that had the natural resources their island nation lacked, and needed to survive.

You can only push other countries around for so long, and they start to fight back.
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The Nanjing massacre occurred much earlier than 1945.
 
Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 against the rules of the League of Nations...this sparked WWII The rape of Nanching was Dec 37-Jan 38 the US showed up in 41...the Japanese invaded Manchurian and China from 1931 they actually claimed victory over China in 37 or 38....between this time Mao and Chiang Kai Shek were battling for control
 
The only way we start making everything in the US that we want to buy is if we are willing to pay much more for those things.

Even if Trump succeeds in destroying the US-China trade, it will likely be replaced by manufacturing in Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

Because Americans don't actually want to pay more for goods made in the USA.

I don't see how Trump wins this trade war, but I'm pretty sure we will see him surrendering and claiming that he won.

China isn't stupid, and they know Trump is.

barfo
 
riverman said:
Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 against the rules of the League of Nations...this sparked WWII The rape of Nanching was Dec 37-Jan 38 the US showed up in 41...the Japanese invaded Manchurian and China from 1931 they actually claimed victory over China in 37 or 38....between this time Mao and Chiang Kai Shek were battling for control
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You are correct, and I was wrong.
Massive brain fart on my part. Of course 1945 is when it ended. Sorry for the error.
 
Hoopguru said:
Both China and the US will come up with a compromised deal and chances are it will be better than we ever have had with China.
Its in the best interest of both nations to settle and they know it.
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China has already said they'd settle for some sort of compromise but Trump will not compromise nor will he settle for an even better compromise by working with our allies, whom he has insulted a great deal, to get that better compromise for both us and our previous friends.
 
oldfisherman said:
You are correct, and I was wrong.
Massive brain fart on my part. Of course 1945 is when it ended. Sorry for the error.
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It's all good....I've spent a couple of decades of my adult life over there...know a lot of the trivia
 
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Lanny said:
China has already said they'd settle for some sort of compromise but Trump will not compromise nor will he settle for an even better compromise by working with our allies, whom he has insulted a great deal, to get that better compromise for both us and our previous friends.
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They will resolve it soon imo.
 
riverman said:
Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 against the rules of the League of Nations...this sparked WWII The rape of Nanching was Dec 37-Jan 38 the US showed up in 41...the Japanese invaded Manchurian and China from 1931 they actually claimed victory over China in 37 or 38....between this time Mao and Chiang Kai Shek were battling for control
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Teddy and his generals taught the Japanese the importance of following the sun and conquer those that get in the way.
 
Lanny said:
China has already said they'd settle for some sort of compromise but Trump will not compromise nor will he settle for an even better compromise by working with our allies, whom he has insulted a great deal, to get that better compromise for both us and our previous friends.
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Trump may screw it up with China but I haven’t heard anyone else’s plan to finally get the Chinese from cleaning our clocks. You can’t just give into them for the long haul. The playing field needs to change.
 
barfo said:
The only way we start making everything in the US that we want to buy is if we are willing to pay much more for those things.

Even if Trump succeeds in destroying the US-China trade, it will likely be replaced by manufacturing in Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

Because Americans don't actually want to pay more for goods made in the USA.

I don't see how Trump wins this trade war, but I'm pretty sure we will see him surrendering and claiming that he won.

China isn't stupid, and they know Trump is.

barfo
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Hey, people in this country purchase foo foo coffee's for $4-$6 a cup. You comment about Amercian's not wanting to pay more goods made here, is not true. The key is its got to be innovative like foo foo coffee or Honda Lawn mowers and they will. If its quality they will buy.
 
Hoopguru said:
Trump may screw it up with China but I haven’t heard anyone else’s plan to finally get the Chinese from cleaning our clocks. You can’t just give into them for the long haul. The playing field needs to change.
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If you want to level the playing field, be careful what you wish for.

The complaint about China undercutting other countries prices because their govt. subsidises the companies, is a two edged sword.

Worldwide, we are the largest exporter of food. In large part due to our lower prices. This is a direct result of subsidies farmers and ranchers receive.

Also, many businesses that export their products receive tax breaks at the state level. This is also a form of subsidy.
 
oldfisherman said:
If you want to level the playing field, be careful what you wish for.

The complaint about China undercutting other countries prices because their govt. subsidises the companies, is a two edged sword.

Worldwide, we are the largest exporter of food. In large part due to our lower prices. This is a direct result of subsidies farmers and ranchers receive.

Also, many businesses that export their products receive tax breaks at the state level. This is also a form of subsidy.
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I do agree with you. Good pro active strategies need to be considered and dialed in. Subsidies are important as is being business/ corporate friendly enough to cultivate innovation and manufacturing incentives for companies to remain here or move here.
 
Hoopguru said:
Hey, people in this country purchase foo foo coffee's for $4-$6 a cup. You comment about Amercian's not wanting to pay more goods made here, is not true. The key is its got to be innovative like foo foo coffee or Honda Lawn mowers and they will. If its quality they will buy.
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I don't know whether coffee is such a great example, since it is manufactured (grown) almost entirely in other countries.

But I think your point is that people will pay a lot of money for stuff if they feel like it.

It's hard to imagine every single product being innovative. Imagine a Wal-Mart competitor called USA-Mart that sells the same range of goods, but everything is made in the US. Imagine that the prices at USA-Mart are on average twice what Wal-Mart charges for Chinese made goods. Which store do you think more people will shop at?

Don't bother answering, we already did the experiment over the past several decades. Cheap stuff won, overwhelmingly.

barfo
 
Hoopguru said:
They will resolve it soon imo.
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You are probably right, because Trump desperately needs to resolve it before the election / before it causes a recession. Too bad he never read 'The Art of the Deal'.

The Chinese don't have to make a deal - the trade war is hurting them for sure, but Xi doesn't have an election coming up.

The asymmetry there, along with the fact that Trump doesn't have even a freshman level grasp of economics or diplomacy, suggests that Trump will lose the war. The Chinese will, however, let him think he won the war.

barfo
 
barfo said:
You are probably right, because Trump desperately needs to resolve it before the election / before it causes a recession. Too bad he never read 'The Art of the Deal'.

The Chinese don't have to make a deal - the trade war is hurting them for sure, but Xi doesn't have an election coming up.

The asymmetry there, along with the fact that Trump doesn't have even a freshman level grasp of economics or diplomacy, suggests that Trump will lose the war.

barfo
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Do we have a bigger red button than China?
 
barfo said:
I don't know whether coffee is such a great example, since it is manufactured (grown) almost entirely in other countries.

But I think your point is that people will pay a lot of money for stuff if they feel like it.

It's hard to imagine every single product being innovative. Imagine a Wal-Mart competitor called USA-Mart that sells the same range of goods, but everything is made in the US. Imagine that the prices at USA-Mart are on average twice what Wal-Mart charges for Chinese made goods. Which store do you think more people will shop at?

Don't bother answering, we already did the experiment over the past several decades. Cheap stuff won, overwhelmingly.

barfo
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Then amazon came along and said we’ll give you cheap prices, convenience and quality and won.
 
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