This guy most likely saved lives

[julius]

Well first off I'm still not sure if that guy's gun was really "stolen". I haven't heard a complete story about this. When did the guy realize his gun was stolen. Did he file a police report? Did he have a idea of who might have stolen it?

Or is he just claiming after the fact that the gun was stolen?

not saying this is the case, but if I was this guys friend and I kind of knew he was a little loony, and let him use my gun (thinking he'd just got out in the woods to light up some beer cans or something) and he did this I'd sure as fuck claim it as stolen.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

not saying this is the case, but if I was this guys friend and I kind of knew he was a little loony, and let him use my gun (thinking he'd just got out in the woods to light up some beer cans or something) and he did this I'd sure as fuck claim it as stolen.

Damn straight you would!

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i didnt see in the article where the gunman saw hero guy, or that he made him retreat...did i miss something?

 

[julius]

i didnt see in the article where the gunman saw hero guy, or that he made him retreat...did i miss something?

I believe that was Nate speculating.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

oh...i mean the hero guy didnt even say that somewhere? i would have

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I heard this morning that the kid in Connecticut tried to use his brother's ID and buy a gun this past Tuesday. He was turned down.

So in both of these shootings it wasn't the gun laws that failed it was the legal and registered owners of the guns that failed to keep them properly secured.

 

[Natebishop3]

parental responsibility. not having the guns available in the first place. cost prohibitive prices for certain styles of guns.

people being responsible with their guns (locked up, and not easily accessible by people who aren't the owners).

the proper help he needed to begin with (the guy was obviously in need of help).

Parental responsibility: is a joke in today's society. Parents don't want to take responsibility, they want to blame someone else, like the parents of that kid who died from skiing into a tree. There will always be irresponsible people, either with guns or alcohol, or drugs, or whatever.

Not having the guns available in the first place: okay, so how does this work? Outlaw guns entirely? Round up all the guns in the country and destroy them? Go back in time and uninvent guns? Just really not sure how this world without guns would come to be.

Cost prohibitive prices: Okay, so he uses a non-cost prohibitive gun instead of a cost-prohibitive one. Shit, you can go out and get a 10/22 for a couple hundred bucks and a .22 bullet still does a lot of damage.

People being responsible with their guns: again, this won't happen. In a perfect world this would be the case, but people are morons. They're going to leave their guns out where others can get to them. We could even implement fines, but short of going into people's homes and checking, how would you enforce it?

Proper help for mentally ill: I agree with this, but this isn't gun related and would take time to implement.

 

[Hobbesarable]

I believe that was Nate speculating.

Wrong. This guy Nick Meli speculated the following point: "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

 

[Natebishop3]

Wrong. This guy Nick Meli speculated the following point: "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

Ding ding ding!

 

[SlyPokerDog]

People being responsible with their guns: again, this won't happen. In a perfect world this would be the case, but people are morons. They're going to leave their guns out where others can get to them. We could even implement fines, but short of going into people's homes and checking, how would you enforce it?

If the guy whose gun was stolen in the Clackamas shooting is lying about this or he didn't report it to the police for whatever reason he should be sent to prison for many many years.

There should be severe criminal penalties for not being a responsible gun owner.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Wrong. This guy Nick Meli speculated the following point: "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

And based off this guys own speculating Nate wants to declare him a hero.

 

[julius]

Parental responsibility: is a joke in today's society.

So then maybe those people shouldn't have guns then.

I think if you can't take care of a kid, or be responsible for a child, you sure as fucking fuck can't be responsible enough to take care of a gun.

Parents don't want to take responsibility, they want to blame someone else, like the parents of that kid who died from skiing into a tree. There will always be irresponsible people, either with guns or alcohol, or drugs, or whatever.

Not having the guns available in the first place: okay, so how does this work? Outlaw guns entirely?

It's an interesting tactic that gun supporters tend to exhibit. No where in my comments here or in the other thread, have I said anything remotely close to 'outlaw guns entirely'.

Stop saying it, and stop acting like everyone who thinks we should actually have some limitation on gun accessibility (and as i've said, better mental health support) are only arguing one point. AND quit acting like that one point they're arguing is complete gun removal.

Round up all the guns in the country and destroy them? Go back in time and uninvent guns? Just really not sure how this world without guns would come to be.

again, not even close to what I suggested.

Cost prohibitive prices: Okay, so he uses a non-cost prohibitive gun instead of a cost-prohibitive one. Shit, you can go out and get a 10/22 for a couple hundred bucks and a .22 bullet still does a lot of damage.

true, but did the guy in Clackamas use a .22? or the guy in Connecticut use a .22?

People being responsible with their guns: again, this won't happen. In a perfect world this would be the case, but people are morons. They're going to leave their guns out where others can get to them. We could even implement fines, but short of going into people's homes and checking, how would you enforce it?

Proper help for mentally ill: I agree with this, but this isn't gun related and would take time to implement.

If people won't be responsible for their guns, they need to maybe not have guns. And maybe, just maybe, everyone having guns isn't actually such a good idea, nor is having as huge of a variety of guns available.

Oh wait, that's kind of my point.

 

[julius]

Wrong. This guy Nick Meli speculated the following point: "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

So it's speculation that Nate is just continuing.

Not sure that proves your point, or his point any better.

 

[jlprk]

You guys are going around in circles. Good thing I'm here to clear this up.

The missing piece of information, which witnesses can provide, is: How long was the time between when the gunman saw our self-claimed hero, and the time of the suicide? The longer it was, the less probable that Hero was the proximate cause of Gunman's suicide. Was it 10 seconds or the opposite extreme, say, 3 minutes?

 

[RR7]

Wrong. This guy Nick Meli speculated the following point: "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

weird thing is, walking away from the scene, he still had the option and ability to kill others along the way and didn't. Including running into someone in the back corridor where he killed himself. Pointed the gun at the person, but didn't shoot. I don't think this guy really wanted to kill as many people as possible. I know that probably sounds stupid.

 

[Hobbesarable]

So it's speculation that Nate is just continuing.

Not sure that proves your point, or his point any better.

I have no point in this discussion. I merely showed you "your" error.

 

[julius]

You guys are going around in circles. Good thing I'm here to clear this up.

The missing piece of information, which witnesses can provide, is: How long was the time between when the gunman saw our self-claimed hero, and the time of the suicide? The longer it was, the less probable that Hero was the proximate cause of Gunman's suicide. Was it 10 seconds or the opposite extreme, say, 3 minutes?

that is a good point. I think this guy might be trying to be a hero, more so than actually being a hero.

If he was an off duty cop, retired cop or something along those lines, I'd be more inclined to believe him.

one of my good friends has a CWP (or whatever its called) and I wouldn't trust him to make the wisest decision in that scenario. And he's been hunting for all of our lives (well, for over 30 years now). Why wouldn't I trust him to make that decision? Because he's never had to do it before, and isn't trained on how to shoot people.

 

[julius]

I have no point in this discussion. I merely showed you "your" error.

oh yeah? well....ok then.

 

[Natebishop3]

So then maybe those people shouldn't have guns then.

I think if you can't take care of a kid, or be responsible for a child, you sure as fucking fuck can't be responsible enough to take care of a gun.



It's an interesting tactic that gun supporters tend to exhibit. No where in my comments here or in the other thread, have I said anything remotely close to 'outlaw guns entirely'.

Stop saying it, and stop acting like everyone who thinks we should actually have some limitation on gun accessibility (and as i've said, better mental health support) are only arguing one point. AND quit acting like that one point they're arguing is complete gun removal.



again, not even close to what I suggested.



true, but did the guy in Clackamas use a .22? or the guy in Connecticut use a .22?



If people won't be responsible for their guns, they need to maybe not have guns. And maybe, just maybe, everyone having guns isn't actually such a good idea, nor is having as huge of a variety of guns available.

Oh wait, that's kind of my point.

What are you even talking about? You said that guns should not have been available in the first place. I'm merely asking how you would make that happen? Did I say that you mentioned all those things? No. I'm merely asking how you would go about making them unavailable, either by outlawing them, removing them, etc etc etc.

People are irresponsible. They run up huge credit card debt, they drive drunk, they let their kids ski without helmets, and they leave their guns out where others can get to them. That part of our society isn't going to change. How would you go about changing or even enforcing it?

The best avenue right now is trying to address mental illness. It's the cause of these attacks and it's the only true way to prevent them in the future. Trying to regulate guns, or weapons at all, is a fools errand and will not stop something like this from happening.

 

[Hobbesarable]

You guys are going around in circles. Good thing I'm here to clear this up.

The missing piece of information, which witnesses can provide, is: How long was the time between when the gunman saw our self-claimed hero, and the time of the suicide? The longer it was, the less probable that Hero was the proximate cause of Gunman's suicide. Was it 10 seconds or the opposite extreme, say, 3 minutes?

Or actually go to the surveillance cameras and gather the visual evidence.

 

[julius]

What are you even talking about? You said that guns should not have been available in the first place.

please, re-read what i wrote and get back to me. You are making an argument against something I didn't say.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

If "the hero" saw that the guy's weapon was jammed why didn't he run up to him, tackle him and take the weapon away? Why would he let him just walk away and possibly shoot more innocent people? How did he know that just staring at the guy with his gun pointed at him was enough to stop the killings?

 

[Natebishop3]

please, re-read what i wrote and get back to me. You are making an argument against something I didn't say.

You said this

not having the guns available in the first place.

I'm merely asking how you would go about making that happen.

 

[julius]

You said this

I'm merely asking how you would go about making that happen.

Why are you changing what I said to fit your point?

Here is an EXACT quote of what I said.

just imagine if he didn't have the gun in the first place. or had access to the help he needed in the first place.

The emphasis is on if HE didn't have have the gun.

That is not saying anything about the guns themselves not being accessible.

So stop making my point to fit your narrow view of what the argument is about.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

If "the hero" saw that the guy's weapon was jammed why didn't he run up to him, tackle him and take the weapon away? Why would he let him just walk away and possibly shoot more innocent people? How did he know that just staring at the guy with his gun pointed at him was enough to stop the killings?

this would have made a much better story, and might possibly stop some of these assholes. they dont want to get caught, they want to off themselves

fuck run up and shoot the bitch in the legs

 

[PapaG]

That's what the guy is claiming. There is no way to really know that. If he had killed the shooter that's one thing. Good for him! But he didn't do anything so he can't claim that he had any effect on the outcome of the shooting.

Why would the guy lie about not shooting? What's wrong with you? The guy is a security guard and wants to be in law enforcement.

 

[PapaG]

just imagine if he didn't have the gun in the first place. or had access to the help he needed in the first place.

Just imagine if the shooter wasn't addicted to his X-Box violent games? We should ban those, too.

 

[PapaG]

Because I heard stories on the day of the shooting about a guy with a CHL protecting people in a store. Why would he lie?

I posted it during the live thread, too. Somebody I know on Facebook was near the guy who had the killer in his sights and posted about it.

 

[julius]

this would have made a much better story, and might possibly stop some of these assholes. they dont want to get caught, they want to off themselves

fuck run up and shoot the bitch in the legs

I'm not sure that the guys who do these things have the same cognitive level of thought process that you and I do. To you and me, the idea of someone shooting us would probably stop us from doing a LOT of things (not that we'd ever think about doing them).

To them, they don't think that way. In some ways, their illness prohibits them from having the social awareness of wrong or right. They don't necessarily think that someone might shoot them or that being stopped/shot is as high of a deterrent as it should be.

It might cause them to run or go somewhere else, but it's unlikely they thought it through enough to consider just offing themselves in the first place.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

end of the day this guy is telling his story, its fair for anyone to believe or not

i see no reason to suspect he is lying personally, especially since his friend was right there and could blow the lid off his whole shizzle