Thorn screwed up BADLY

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jloc857 @ Jan 24 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>
You can't really blame Thorn for that...I mean Jefferson had been hurt the entire season and it was looking like we were gonna add SAR to the trio of Kidd, RJ, VC and Krstic was looking like he was a future all star. I don't think there was a GM in the league that would have been looking to trade Carter with the team we had or at least thought we had.
</div>

Hell yes Thorn can be blamed for that. There was a tremendous lack of vision.

Any GM worth their salt wouldn't have gone after SAR or Swift (the fall back choice). The Nets weren't on the verge of a championship, but they acted like they were.

The top GM's would have traded him because they would have known that there were plenty of GMs that they could have ripped off.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>

The seminal moment for the franchise.

The Nets might be champions now if Thorn made the right deal.

 

[JCB]

Don't you just love 20-20 hindsight?

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Jan 24 2008, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't you just love 20-20 hindsight?</div>

If you are talking about me, I was preaching that gospel then and was labeled a heretic. So it isn't hindsight from my end

 

[JCB]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Jan 24 2008, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't you just love 20-20 hindsight?</div>

If you are talking about me, I was preaching that gospel then and was labeled a heretic. So it isn't hindsight from my end
</div>

Was referring to Jizzy's original post. Honestly haven't read any other posts in this thread yet.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 24 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why did Kidd sign with New Jersey instead of San Antonio if both teams were offering 20 mill per year?</div>


Not that it matters, but SA could only offer Kidd 90 mil while NJ offered 100+.

 

[Joey FistPump]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jloc857 @ Jan 24 2008, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>
You can't really blame Thorn for that...I mean Jefferson had been hurt the entire season and it was looking like we were gonna add SAR to the trio of Kidd, RJ, VC and Krstic was looking like he was a future all star. I don't think there was a GM in the league that would have been looking to trade Carter with the team we had or at least thought we had.
</div>

Hell yes Thorn can be blamed for that. There was a tremendous lack of vision.

Any GM worth their salt wouldn't have gone after SAR or Swift (the fall back choice). The Nets weren't on the verge of a championship, but they acted like they were.

The top GM's would have traded him because they would have known that there were plenty of GMs that they could have ripped off.
</div>
Most top analysts thought the Nets with a healthy RJ, an emerging Nenad and the potential addition of SAR were legit championship contenders...while I will agree it would have been a great move to trade Vince I can't call it a huge mistake going with conventionaly thought. He played it safe and it didn't work out...two second round exits and now we are where we are. The bottomline is that Thorn does need to make a decision soon because his legacy is being tarnished by this disaster that has been this season.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jloc857 @ Jan 24 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Most top analysts thought the Nets with a healthy RJ, an emerging Nenad and the potential addition of SAR were legit championship contenders</div>

Ah, don't get me started on that. I'll leave it at these same people thought McInnis was going to be a good backup for Kidd

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>...while I will agree it would have been a great move to trade Vince I can't call it a huge mistake going with conventionaly thought. He played it safe and it didn't work out...two second round exits and now we are where we are. The bottomline is that Thorn does need to make a decision soon because his legacy is being tarnished by this disaster that has been this season.</div>

Thorn is too afraid to blow it up.

 

[Joey FistPump]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jloc857 @ Jan 24 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Most top analysts thought the Nets with a healthy RJ, an emerging Nenad and the potential addition of SAR were legit championship contenders</div>

Ah, don't get me started on that. I'll leave it at these same people thought McInnis was going to be a good backup for Kidd

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>...while I will agree it would have been a great move to trade Vince I can't call it a huge mistake going with conventionaly thought. He played it safe and it didn't work out...two second round exits and now we are where we are. The bottomline is that Thorn does need to make a decision soon because his legacy is being tarnished by this disaster that has been this season.</div>

Thorn is too afraid to blow it up.
</div>
Hey I'm with you on both points...I never liked the team chemistry in the first place and I've been asking about getting younger and deeper for a long time. You are also right...Thorn is afraid to blow it up...its one of the reasons he needs to retire.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Jan 24 2008, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't you just love 20-20 hindsight?</div>


why cant i critcize this management?

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>

The seminal moment for the franchise.

The Nets might be champions now if Thorn made the right deal.
</div>
we could have traded VC for brand after his best season

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Jan 24 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Jan 24 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There are 2 sides to a negotiation, and there are logical starting points. Like Carter would had signed elsewhere for the MLE, all money being equal if the teams with cap space won't want to sign with him. So the starting amount would be over the MLE. And other factors should play in to. You are using a pretty extreme case/example.

Do you think if Thorn had pressed to take a deal that was 1 million less a year, over the life of the contract, he would had signed for the MLE or less elsewhere?

-Petey</div>

Another logical starting point in negotiations could also have been such and such make this much around the league. Or I made this much last year but to stay in Jersey I'll take a pay cut of about 2-3 million from what I'll make next season.

And maybe Thorn already negotiated the price down from a higher point during the negotiations and they both agreed on it. After all, if Carter didn't opt out of his contract he would have been paid like 15-16 million this season so he did take a pay cut this season.
</div>

Yes that's a logical starting point too. But read your example again, and explain if that is how you would go about getting the best deal possible in Thorn's case. It's not a knock on Carter. Just when he opted out there wasn't a market for a max/close to max SG/SF. That's why Thorn overpaid.

-Petey

 

[Petey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 24 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After the 2004-2005 season, Thorn could have trade Vince for a lot. That was the screw up.</div>

The seminal moment for the franchise.

The Nets might be champions now if Thorn made the right deal.
</div>
we could have traded VC for brand after his best season
</div>

The Clippers weren't going to trade Brand.

-Petey

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

</div>

I haven't eaten in days.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

</div>

I haven't eaten in days.
</div>
i could fix you up a sammich if i could

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

</div>

I haven't eaten in days.
</div>
i could fix you up a sammich if i could
</div>

I'm staying strong.

 

[JCB]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Jan 24 2008, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't you just love 20-20 hindsight?</div>


why cant i critcize this management?
</div>

Why do you always manipulate what I say? Quite annoying. Nowhere did I say you couldn't criticize the way this team has been built. All I said was that it's easy to scrutinize the moves they've made after the fact. At the time most of those deals were made, there were logical reasons for all of them. Now, though, it's easy to see we messed up.

 

[Lavalamp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

</div>

I haven't eaten in days.
</div>
i could fix you up a sammich if i could
</div>

I'm staying strong.
</div>
lol, kind of funny. Are you actually going to do it for a day or two?

All food smells really good while you do it, and looks tasty lol.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jan 25 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 25 2008, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>
they have great value on guys with rookie contracts. i'll take roy, aldridge and oden anyday!
</div>

No shit.
</div>

why would you curse?

</div>

I haven't eaten in days.
</div>
i could fix you up a sammich if i could
</div>

I'm staying strong.
</div>
lol, kind of funny. Are you actually going to do it for a day or two?

All food smells really good while you do it, and looks tasty lol.


</div>

I wanted a delicious BK Hamlette sandwich this morning, but Thorn let me down.

 

[shookem]

damn am i hungry. anything from bk would go over great right now. i skipped breakfast and lunch is still 45 minutes away. booo!

 

[ly_yng]

To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 25 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.</div>

The Nets also got him for less than the full MLE with that extension. The following summer when Twin would have been eligible for RFA, the Knicks signed Jerome James to a full MLE deal.

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 25 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.</div>

there's something else, too. Right before Collins signed the Nets had dismantled their NBA finals team, jettisoning Kenyon, KK, and Lu. Ratner was getting totally ripped in the press. I believed at the time--and I still do--that the timing (and length) of Collins' deal was designed as a response to those criticisms and to convince the fans that the reason those other players was dealt was NOT a financial one and that the new ownership was willing to spend money. In effect, (in my view), Collins was the beneficiary of the break-up of the Nets. In that light, I'm not going to criticise the Collins signing, because it was as much an immediate business decision as it was a judgment of his skills and future.

Also, there may have been a general assumption that the salary cap would go up each year, instead of stagnate, and therefore throwing money at Collins would not have hamstrung the team as has happened. I'm not sure about that.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 25 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.</div>

The Nets also got him for less than the full MLE with that extension. The following summer when Twin would have been eligible for RFA, the Knicks signed Jerome James to a full MLE deal.
</div>
Collins wasnt worth anwhere close to the MLE back then either. he was a decent guy but a 5 million dollar player most. that move was a clear desperation move because he was losing familiar big bodies

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 25 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.</div>

The Nets also got him for less than the full MLE with that extension. The following summer when Twin would have been eligible for RFA, the Knicks signed Jerome James to a full MLE deal.
</div>
Collins wasnt worth anwhere close to the MLE back then either. he was a decent guy but a 5 million dollar player most. that move was a clear desperation move because he was losing familiar big bodies
</div>

Jerome James was worth much less than Twin. The point is that Twin would have gotten the full MLE on the market.

 

[footswalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>

Okay, this is why arguing on message boards can be pointless. Ghoti, I was simply stating that it's disturbing that Collins is the 4th highest paid player on the team, and it's evidence that the Nets have spent extremely poorly. How can argue that??? Who was talking about Portland? No one. I guess your attempting to argue that you can still be a successful team with bad contracts. Okay, whatever, Portland's situation has nothing to do with Nets. They were extremely horrible for several years and have improved through the draft and a couple nice trades. The Nets haven't had a top 10 pick, since like 2000 with Kenyon. How are they supposed to follow Portland's gameplan? Please get a little knowledge before just adding up a couple contracts in an attempt to sound knowledgeable.

This Nets team is screwed, because the majority of their cap space is tied up in 2 aging stars past their prime, they Never invested in a serviceable big man and their 4th highest paid player is the least productive "starter" in the last 10 years. If you don't see a problem there, I don't know what to tell you. You would fit right in with Nets current management.

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Jan 25 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Jan 25 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To put the Collins signing in perspective, he signed his contract in the summer before the 04-05 season. At the time, he was a great post defender with a mediocre, passable offensive game.

That same summer, the Suns signed Steve Nash, unofficially kicking off the new run n' gun era in the NBA. The main result of this is that in the 4 seasons since, teams across the NBA have been using smaller and smaller lineups. This means less post-dependent teams, and fewer opportunities for Collins to utilize his main strength - post defense.

Meanwhile, a series of chronic injuries have devastated Collins' legs, which has obviously hurt his shooting and his ability to finish, as well as his speed on help defense. He's made up for as much as he can with his intelligence, but it really hasn't been enough.

What I'm trying to say is that the signing was defensible at the time, but both the NBA and Collins' health took a sharp, unexpected turn.</div>

The Nets also got him for less than the full MLE with that extension. The following summer when Twin would have been eligible for RFA, the Knicks signed Jerome James to a full MLE deal.
</div>
Collins wasnt worth anwhere close to the MLE back then either. he was a decent guy but a 5 million dollar player most. that move was a clear desperation move because he was losing familiar big bodies
</div>

Jerome James was worth much less than Twin. The point is that Twin would have gotten the full MLE on the market.
</div>
look at the source who gave JJ the MLE. not good guy to base your premis with

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jan 24 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best part of the original post is that it notes that Collins is the Nets' 4th highest paid player. I mean... WOW. I knew he was making a ridiculous 6 mil, but didn't realize he was the 4th highest on the team. That just says it ALL right there. You don't even need to look further to see why this team is completely effed.</div>

Portland is paying Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz and Darius Miles $34M this season and $37M next season.

They must be REALLY effed!
</div>

Okay, this is why arguing on message boards can be pointless. Ghoti, I was simply stating that it's disturbing that Collins is the 4th highest paid player on the team, and it's evidence that the Nets have spent extremely poorly. How can argue that“? Who was talking about Portland? No one. I guess your attempting to argue that you can still be a successful team with bad contracts. Okay, whatever, Portland's situation has nothing to do with Nets. They were extremely horrible for several years and have improved through the draft and a couple nice trades. The Nets haven't had a top 10 pick, since like 2000 with Kenyon. How are they supposed to follow Portland's gameplan? Please get a little knowledge before just adding up a couple contracts in an attempt to sound knowledgeable.

This Nets team is screwed, because the majority of their cap space is tied up in 2 aging stars past their prime, they Never invested in a serviceable big man and their 4th highest paid player is the least productive "starter" in the last 10 years. If you don't see a problem there, I don't know what to tell you. You would fit right in with Nets current management.

</div>

So Collins' contract doesn't "say it ALL right there" and we do have to look further to see "why the team is completely effed".

That makes more sense.