Thoughts on the Death Penalty

[Denny Crane]

this thread is about the death penalty, not sure what all encompassing crime stats have to do with that

I think there's a really strong correlation between violent crime and violent crime.

If your neighborhood is overrun by gangs, more people are going to shoot at each other.

 

[RR7]

I think there's a really strong correlation between violent crime and violent crime.

If your neighborhood is overrun by gangs, more people are going to shoot at each other.

I think there's a strong correlation between race and whether or not you get the death penalty for a violent crime.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

oh. you didnt say violent crime.

 

[Further]

IF the death penalty only was handed down to people who truly committed their crimes, AND, IF the death penalty was racist, I would have a problem that more whites didn't get the same result, not that Blacks shouldn't be getting that result. Meaning, I would want all raping murders to get hung. But, that all supposes that there aren't mistakes. But there are mistakes. Innocent people are killed by our court system. That's messed up. Fuck the race, fuck the pain in the actual process, as long as they truly deserve that needle in the first place. I think the state should be required to do due diligence not to cause more pain than needed to get the job done, but I don't think that it matters much in the long run if it takes 10 minutes or 2 hours to get the job done. But lets never do it if we cant be certain they committed the crime.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think we should go back to the gladiatorial system. Let them fight to the death.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think there's a strong correlation between race and whether or not you get the death penalty for a violent crime.

I think there's a strong correlation between race and committing crimes, and being arrested for them.

I went to a friend's wedding in East Palo Alto a few years back. In the church parking lot, several of the cars had bullet holes in them. I never saw that before in any other neighborhood I've been in. Bullet holes in cars are evidence of violent gun crime, no?

Why do you think that is?

 

[MARIS61]

My bad. It is race of victims.

BLACK 477 34%
LATINO 110 8%
WHITE 774 56%
OTHER 24 2%

Either way, it appears we are not killing enough asians to be fair.

 

[barfo]

Bullet holes in cars are evidence of violent gun crime, no?

No. Sometimes people go to the shooting range but park at the wrong end.

Besides, if those cars weren't asking for it, why were they wearing such short skirts?

barfo

 

[barfo]

What are the racial percentages of those who commit crimes? That's the right question.

50% black, 50% white, everyone knows that.

The right question is why Obama is committing so many crimes.

barfo

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I would think carbon monoxide would be easy. Or just throw them off a bridge.

If someone killed a child there isn't anything too bad for them.

 

[maxiep]

I have zero moral issue with the state killing people who have been found guilty of a serious crime. However, I am 100% opposed to the death penalty. Here are my reasons:

First, it is more expensive to kill someone than to lock them up for life without hope of parole. These maggots should have the minimum amount of money spent on their miserable lives as possible.

Second, the constant appeals process by those opposed to the death penalty (which is a cottage industry in and of itself) makes the family re-live the horror of the crime. Putting someone away for life with no hope of parole limits the appeals.

Third, we humans are not perfect. Yet the death penalty is a perfect solution in the sense it cannot be revoked. There have been enough cases where people have been put to death or were on death row for crimes they did not commit to make me oppose the death penalty.

Fourth, it has not proven to be a deterrent. Why go to the trouble and expense of killing someone if it doesn't work?

Fifth, the death penalty is not punitive enough. There is one of two possibilities: a) there is a Hell; or b) there isn't. If there is, making someone's life Hell on earth for 30-70 years doesn't take much a chunk out of eternity. If there isn't, then you have relieved their suffering, thereby doing them a favor. Let them suffer on earth for a few years before they're sent on their way.

Put them away for life without hope of parole, and whatever happens to them in prison, happens. People who are serving life for violent offenses shouldn't be mixed with anyone else without those characteristics. No TV, no weights, no time outside and food enough for sustenance. Put a photo in their cell of their victim, so they never forget. If life is so cheap to them, let them live in a society made up of only those people. If they are raped or killed while in this kind of micro-society, it was their choice.

 

[Denny Crane]

The death penalty isn't meant to deter anyone. It's simply the penalty befitting certain crimes.

 

[magnifier661]

The death penalty isn't meant to deter anyone. It's simply the penalty befitting certain crimes.

I disagree. It is definitely a tool to deter. In fact, capital punishment is used in Malaysia for drug trafficking. No trial, nothing. You get caught selling, you meet their firing squad. That country had such a problem with drugs, they raised the stakes to detour people from selling drugs.

 

[maxiep]

The death penalty isn't meant to deter anyone. It's simply the penalty befitting certain crimes.

I disagree. When we recommenced with the death penalty in 1976, a huge argument was that it served as a deterrent. The deterrence aspect of capital punishment is always a main argument for it.

 

[Denny Crane]

I disagree. It is definitely a tool to deter. In fact, capital punishment is used in Malaysia for drug trafficking. No trial, nothing. You get caught selling, you meet their firing squad. That country had such a problem with drugs, they raised the stakes to detour people from selling drugs.

Do people still sell drugs?

If you have a penalty for a crime, but don't enforce it, you're giving everyone the green light to break the law.

 

[magnifier661]

Do people still sell drugs?

If you have a penalty for a crime, but don't enforce it, you're giving everyone the green light to break the law.

Well absolutely, but it did reduce greatly. That's why it's called "deter" not "eliminate".

 

[Denny Crane]

I disagree. When we recommenced with the death penalty in 1976, a huge argument was that it served as a deterrent. The deterrence aspect of capital punishment is always a main argument for it.

It's not a deterrent is the bleeding heart argument against it.

It was never supposed to be a deterrent. People murder, penalty or not.

 

[maxiep]

It's not a deterrent is the bleeding heart argument against it.

It was never supposed to be a deterrent. People murder, penalty or not.

What? People murder regardless of the consequences? No shit, Denny. Did you even bother to read my post? All I was saying was that those in favor of the death penalty use the deterrence argument.

 

[Denny Crane]

It likely does deter a few murders, but deterrence is the least important factor in why we have a death penalty.

The primary reasons are to punish people who commit a heinous crime, and to prevent the person from committing the crime again.

 

[magnifier661]

It likely does deter a few murders, but deterrence is the least important factor in why we have a death penalty.

The primary reasons are to punish people who commit a heinous crime, and to prevent the person from committing the crime again.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

Arguments for and against capital punishment are based on moral, practical, and religious grounds. Advocates of the death penalty argue that it deters crime, is a good tool for prosecutors (in plea bargaining for example),[103] improves the community by eliminating recidivism by executed criminals, provides closure to surviving victims or loved ones, and is a just penalty for the crimes it punishes.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

Weak sauce. There's not a single citation to support that claim.

Perhaps some advocates do say it's a deterrent, but deterrence is not the main reason to have a death penalty.

https://www.asc41.com/policies/policypaper2.html

While there may be some outstanding due process issues surrounding the application of the sanction, these are either rare or can be corrected by legislative and administrative reforms. More importantly, as evidenced by public opinion, the most commonly accepted argument in favor of the death penalty in America, today remains retribution. Of those Americans who support the death penalty, polls show that most favor it because of just deserts, or an “eye for an eye” even though this principle is not applied in any other offense – arson, rape, etc. Since this moral justification is not amenable to nor requires scientific testing, it is a sufficient basis for continuing the use of the death penalty. However, when presented with evidence that the death penalty is currently administered in a way that produces significant racial disparities, substantial error rates, and other problems, common moral ground may be achieved between proponents and abolitionists.

 

[magnifier661]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

Did you not see the citation right after what I posted in bold? You are losing your touch Denny....

 

[Denny Crane]

Did you not see the citation right after what I posted in bold? You are losing your touch Denny....

No citations IN THE FREAKING WIKIPEDIA page.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/student/c/about/arguments/argument1a.htm

For years, criminologists analyzed murder rates to see if they fluctuated with the likelihood of convicted murderers being executed, but the results were inconclusive.

(but they kept executing people anyway)

 

[magnifier661]

No citations IN THE FREAKING WIKIPEDIA page.

103 on that page bro... Usually it's the numbers that are posted immediately after the sentence. I know reading can sometimes be hard... Would you like me to hold your hand and click the link too?

 

[magnifier661]

http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/student/c/about/arguments/argument1a.htm

For years, criminologists analyzed murder rates to see if they fluctuated with the likelihood of convicted murderers being executed, but the results were inconclusive.

(but they kept executing people anyway)

From your link

For years, criminologists analyzed murder rates to see if they fluctuated with the likelihood of convicted murderers being executed, but the results were inconclusive. Then in 1973 Isaac Ehrlich employed a new kind of analysis which produced results showing that for every inmate who was executed, 7 lives were spared because others were deterred from committing murder. Similar results have been produced by disciples of Ehrlich in follow-up studies.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I think Maxie is pretty spot on. I still think there might be exceptions, but in general, its a mess

 

[Denny Crane]

Deterrence is not the reason we have a death penalty. We had it long before anyone did any studies. Not because it deterred people, but because it put an end to them and was the punishment fitting the crime.

And 103 on your wikipedia page I already looked at. It talks about death penalty as a tool for prosecutors in plea bargaining.

 

[porkchopexpress]

http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/student/c/about/arguments/argument1a.htm

For years, criminologists analyzed murder rates to see if they fluctuated with the likelihood of convicted murderers being executed, but the results were inconclusive.

(but they kept executing people anyway)

That doesn't mean that the Pro death penalty crowd doesn't argue that it is a deterrent. It only means that that argument is wrong.

 

[Denny Crane]

That doesn't mean that the Pro death penalty crowd doesn't argue that it is a deterrent. It only means that that argument is wrong.

I don't hear anyone who's a lawyer or judge talk about deterrence. It's punishment that fits the crime, and carrying out the sentence is done so people know the laws have teeth.