Time to trade CJ

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BonesJones said:
I fucking hate how everytime the team plays well without C.J.... or when Gary Trent Jr. plays well... It becomes "We're better without C.J."
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We don’t need him. We are fucking flush at guard. The dude is a luxury we don’t need. Why not convert him into a position of need like small forward? Cash in the chips.
 
Also I think I very clearly memed change my mind. So change my mind.
 
bobf said:
Hmmmm don’t know what to make of this, it’s unexpected given your lists are a form of plus/minus and so is this (CJ #1 Trent #75)
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/2

I think you have to be careful - plus minus takes a huge sample size to work itself out.
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Think about this though, with CJ the team has a whole was playing worse, so CJ had to carry more of the offensive load.

Without CJ we have had a more balanced attack. :dunno:

Four 20+ point scorers tonight.
 
I like CJ. I like guys that can create their own shot and score in a variety of ways. Comes real handy in half court playoff basketball. Before his injury, I thought he was probably playing the most consistent basketball he's played and worthy of an All Star nod. Yet, imo, the team is running more smoothly while he and Nurk have been out. What we lost in isolation scoring, has been counter-balanced with better defense, rebounding, ball movement and more consistent level of play.

I don't see them as a problem, they just need to be used differently when they return. Who are the best four guys to complement Dame should always be the question. We like Nurk with Dame because of the two man ability, but Kanter is showing he can do a little of that himself, while being a much better rebounder and active player. Trent gives Dame a true spot up shooter and is a better defender. At the same time, while Kanter and Trent play better surrounded by superior players, Nurk and CJ don't necessarily need to feed off Dame to be effective. I'd like to see one of CJ or Nurk lead the 2nd unit when they return, or even both. Stotts and Olshey will never do it, but I think it's the right move. Best five isn't necessarily most talented scoring five line of thinking.
 
Drttimmy said:
I like CJ. I like guys that can create their own shot and score in a variety of ways. Comes real handy in half court playoff basketball. Before his injury, I thought he was probably playing the most consistent basketball he's played and worthy of an All Star nod. Yet, imo, the team is running more smoothly while he and Nurk have been out. What we lost in isolation scoring, has been counter-balanced with better defense, rebounding, ball movement and more consistent level of play.

I don't see them as a problem, they just need to be used differently when they return. Who are the best four guys to complement Dame should always be the question. We like Nurk with Dame because of the two man ability, but Kanter is showing he can do a little of that himself, while being a much better rebounder and active player. Trent gives Dame a true spot up shooter and is a better defender. At the same time, while Kanter and Trent play better surrounded by superior players, Nurk and CJ don't necessarily need to feed off Dame to be effective. I'd like to see one of CJ or Nurk lead the 2nd unit when they return, or even both. Stotts and Olshey will never do it, but I think it's the right move. Best five isn't necessarily most talented scoring five line of thinking.
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This is why we trade CJ and Nurk for Randle, Rivers, Noel and the Dallas pick. Then we have to trade Noel, the Dallas pick and any draft considerations of our own for Allen. Or stick with Noel and the Dallas pick. Dame, Gary, RoCo, Randle, Enes, Rivers, DJJ, Noel and Hoodie is better than what we currently have plus a pick. Dame, Gary. RoCo, Randle, Allen, Rivers, DJJ, Enes and Hoodie is far far better than what we currently have. Possibly that team contends.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Think about this though, with CJ the team has a whole was playing worse, so CJ had to carry more of the offensive load.

Without CJ we have had a more balanced attack. :dunno:

Four 20+ point scorers tonight.
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That’s true but there are so many variables and so much variance game to game (even with the exact same players) that it’s hard to be sure of what is the cause of a given effect.

You could go to 10 Blazer games and the Blazers could win by and average of +8 and move the ball beautifully and have balanced scoring and play good D and then I could go to 10 different games and they suck and average -8, play crappy D and take turns ISOing it. So you’re a +8 and I’m a -8 yet our attending the game had nothing to do with any of it.

Plus minus stats take hundred of games for random variances average out to a decent degree.

You could be 100% right. I just don’t think you can prove it using plus/minus stats over a small sample. I noticed that DJJ looks about as good as GT in the lineups you posted.
 
Natebishop3 said:
We don’t need him. We are fucking flush at guard. The dude is a luxury we don’t need. Why not convert him into a position of need like small forward? Cash in the chips.
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I'm not against trading him, but saying we are better without him is ridiculous. Fame gets trapped hard in the playoffs. How we dealing with that without CJ? Trent gonna create his own shot?
 
BonesJones said:
I'm not against trading him, but saying we are better without him is ridiculous. Fame gets trapped hard in the playoffs. How we dealing with that without CJ? Trent gonna create his own shot?
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You keep saying that but we have a hard time dealing with the trap when CJ is healthy too. We need something with the guys that are playing right now that is different... not necessarily a step down but different from CJ and probably Nurk.

The reason why people are saying we're better right now without CJ isn't because they believe he's a bad player but it's because they look at the team and it makes sense. We don't have two undersized guards out there that suck at defense and need the ball in their hands to be their best on O. That makes a huge difference.
 
BonesJones said:
I'm not against trading him, but saying we are better without him is ridiculous. Fame gets trapped hard in the playoffs. How we dealing with that without CJ? Trent gonna create his own shot?
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That's a Terry Stotts problem. And having CJ against the Pels didn't seem to make a bit of difference.

One problem at a time my man. Trade CJ for a star wing or power forward and then if we need to fire Stotts, make that move.
 
Natebishop3 said:
And having CJ against the Pels didn't seem to make a bit of difference.
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This is why you add an extra ball handler, not get rid of one. That just compounds the issue. Not many Jokics out there so it needs to come from a forward spot. Dame, CJ, and Trent would have fared better against that Pelican trap. They went with a 3 guard lineup. Of course, having AD helps quite a bit but still, Trent would have matched up well with Moore.

I guess if you traded CJ for a forward who can handle the ball, but I still think those types of superstars are hard to come by. They have to want out for their team to get rid of them.
 
BonesJones said:
I'm not against trading him, but saying we are better without him is ridiculous. Fame gets trapped hard in the playoffs. How we dealing with that without CJ? Trent gonna create his own shot?
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Does Klay Thompson create his own shot?
 
Pinwheel1 said:
This is why you add an extra ball handler, not get rid of one. That just compounds the issue. Not many Jokics out there so it needs to come from a forward spot. Dame, CJ, and Trent would have fared better against that Pelican trap. They went with a 3 guard lineup. Of course, having AD helps quite a bit but still, Trent would have matched up well with Moore.

I guess if you traded CJ for a forward who can handle the ball, but I still think those types of superstars are hard to come by. They have to want out for their team to get rid of them.
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Man.... if we could get Ben Simmons it would be perfect.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Trade CJ for a star wing or power forward
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Unless CJ comes back and keeps playing the way he did at the start of the season for a long stretch, no one's going to trade a star wing or power forward for him. The CJ from before his explosion this season wasn't a star--so it all rides on whether that explosion is his new level.
 
blazerkor said:
You keep saying that but we have a hard time dealing with the trap when CJ is healthy too. We need something with the guys that are playing right now that is different... not necessarily a step down but different from CJ and probably Nurk.

The reason why people are saying we're better right now without CJ isn't because they believe he's a bad player but it's because they look at the team and it makes sense. We don't have two undersized guards out there that suck at defense and need the ball in their hands to be their best on O. That makes a huge difference.
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The problem is that you're looking at this from your view that CJ needs to go in order to balance the team. Who knows, Olshey could agree with you by now, but he has to find a team that's willing to trade a stud SF for CJ. Given the relative scarcity of players at that position vs relatively numerous scoring combo-guard options, that's not easy to do.
 
e_blazer said:
The problem is that you're looking at this from your view that CJ needs to go in order to balance the team. Who knows, Olshey could agree with you by now, but he has to find a team that's willing to trade a stud SF for CJ. Given the relative scarcity of players at that position vs relatively numerous scoring combo-guard options, that's not easy to do.
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I think RoCo can play the 3 and we could go after a 4. I actually think that given his sustained excellence this season and the Knicks cap flexibility that Julius Randle would be a good player to target. I think both him and Austin Rivers could be had for the CJ we've had for a while now, not just for the CJ from this season.
 
I think with the offer Trent is likely to get in a somewhat bare market next offseason, the move is to trade CJ and match any offer, or trade Trent this season and kick that free agency can down the road a little bit if possible. I wonder who could generically return more in a trade. CJ, established, teams know what they get with him, really good player, can carry an offense for you for stretches. Or Trent, more of a question mark, but startiung to establish himself, and much younger. But, looming RFA.
 
BonesJones said:
I'm not against trading him, but saying we are better without him is ridiculous. Fame gets trapped hard in the playoffs. How we dealing with that without CJ? Trent gonna create his own shot?
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To be fair, having CJ hasn't solved ANY of the trapping issues ever since he has entered the starting line up years ago.
 
RR7 said:
I think with the offer Trent is likely to get in a somewhat bare market next offseason, the move is to trade CJ and match any offer, or trade Trent this season and kick that free agency can down the road a little bit if possible. I wonder who could generically return more in a trade. CJ, established, teams know what they get with him, really good player, can carry an offense for you for stretches. Or Trent, more of a question mark, but startiung to establish himself, and much younger. But, looming RFA.
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Not sure OKC would bite with him locked in on such a cheap contract, but Lu Dort would fit like a glove. Better more physical defense, can play 3 much better than Trent allowing him to share the floor with CJ and Dame (or either and Anfernee) and an improved 3-ball. Trent's D is OK and he puts in max effort, but Dort would be a big step up. For OKC, GT is probably a better fit for the future for SGA. We may need to add a pick or something.

Follow that up with Giles/Collins/2nd for PJ Tucker.

This would be a team with championship level defense to cover for CJ/Ant/Melo/Kanter. We could also play a lot more zone with our improved length and mobility which would help hide those guys.

Lillard/Simons
CJ/Jones
Dort/Hood
Covington/Tucker
Nurkic/Kanter

sprinkle minutes for Nas whenever one of the 2/3/4s is out.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Trent choked on his last two wide-opened 3, it almost cost us.
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There’s a difference between choking and just missing a shot. Those were good looks that just didn’t go in. Choking would be if he hit the side of the backboard on those shots.

It was him and RoCo hustling and playing defense that got them the big lead in the 3rd.
 
OneSport3 said:
There’s a difference between choking and just missing a shot. Those were good looks that just didn’t go in. Choking would be if he hit the side of the backboard on those shots.

It was him and RoCo hustling and playing defense that got them the big lead in the 3rd.
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Agreed he played great. But still, he needs to come through in the clutch when he is that wide open.
 
OneSport3 said:
There’s a difference between choking and just missing a shot. Those were good looks that just didn’t go in. Choking would be if he hit the side of the backboard on those shots.

It was him and RoCo hustling and playing defense that got them the big lead in the 3rd.
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He choked that last wide open shot and he knows it most....
 
Serbian said:
Trent JR can not walk away!!!! CJ must be traded!!!!
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I agree with the idea that CJ should be traded. I have to agree with your first statement because it is factual. Gary can not walk away. The guy is a RFA so we have to be the ones that let him go, he has no say in the matter. He can sign a huge offer sheet but then we get to decide if we match it and we can go over the cap to do so.
 
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