Time to trade CJ

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Natebishop3 said:
Please, point me to where I have ever said that CJ is useless. That's absurd hyperbole.
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I know for a fact you've said the team is better without him and that he makes other players, like Little, worse because he's selfish. "Useless" is less hyperbolic than "selfish enough to make teammates worse," so if I accidentally added "useless" (I did think you had said that but I believe you if you say you never used that exact word), that hardly changes anything.

Trent fits our need better, so why wouldn't we want to trade him for another position of need?
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I'm all for trading him. My point is that when making that argument, you slag him off as a player who makes teams worse, then you turn around and act like every other team would/should prefer to have him instead of their superior, two-way star.
 
Minstrel said:
I know for a fact you've said the team is better without him and that he makes other players, like Little, worse because he's selfish. "Useless" is less hyperbolic than "selfish enough to make teammates worse," so if I accidentally added "useless" (I did think you had said that but I believe you if you say you never used that exact word), that hardly changes anything.



I'm all for trading him. My point is that when making that argument, you slag him off as a player who makes teams worse, then you turn around and act like every other team would/should prefer to have him instead of their superior, two-way star.
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I think people are saying that CJ makes the Blazers worse because he's paired with Dame, but would make other teams better given the opportunity to play the Dame role.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I think people are saying that CJ makes the Blazers worse because he's paired with Dame, but would make other teams better given the opportunity to play the Dame role.
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I could buy that if it wasn't for the "selfish" part. Is he only selfish when paired with Dame?

I'm not responding to general sentiment, I'm commenting specifically on Nate's position(s).
 
Minstrel said:
I could buy that if it wasn't for the "selfish" part. Is he only selfish when paired with Dame?

I'm not responding to general sentiment, I'm commenting specifically on Nate's position(s).
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All good. Since you're responding to Nate, I'll let him answer for himself. But I will say that if his position is in fact that CJ only plays selfishly when playing with Dame, I'm not sure that I would dispute that claim.

Or perhaps it's as simple as saying that it's OK for the #1 option to be selfish, but not the #2 guy.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
All good. Since you're responding to Nate, I'll let him answer for himself. But I will say that if his position is in fact that CJ only plays selfishly when playing with Dame, I'm not sure that I would dispute that claim.
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So you don't think that when CJ takes over on offense, when Dame is on the floor, that it isn't intentional? Maybe giving Dame a chance to take some plays off? I find it hard to believe that as close as the two of them are, that they haven't dissected every detail of every game over the last few years. We all know that Dame is a great leader, my guess is that he does not think CJ is hurting him or the team with his "selfish play"....or he would say so over a nice bottle of vino.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Or perhaps it's as simple as saying that it's OK for the #1 option to be selfish, but not the #2 guy.
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I'm not sure that makes sense. He's not using "selfish" in the context of being the top dog and finding his shot...he's using it in the context of making his teammates worse. Do we consider Lillard to be "selfish" in that context, just because he's the #1? I don't think so. I can't really read Nate's comments as anything but writing CJ off as an empty-stats player. Which, if he feels that way, is fine--but then that undercuts the idea that other teams' GMs would trade "useful stars" (i.e. stars that aren't empty stats) for CJ.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
All good. Since you're responding to Nate, I'll let him answer for himself. But I will say that if his position is in fact that CJ only plays selfishly when playing with Dame, I'm not sure that I would dispute that claim.

Or perhaps it's as simple as saying that it's OK for the #1 option to be selfish, but not the #2 guy.
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I dont think CJ plays selfish, and I guarantee you if he did, Dame would call him out on it, imo. He plays like many 2 guards do in looking for a shot and to get rolling. CJ isnt just an off the ball catch and shoot 2 guard. He does dribble alot but many high scoring guards do, including Dame. I think Dame knows CJ has to play his game to get rolling.
 
Minstrel said:
I'm not sure that makes sense. He's not using "selfish" in the context of being the top dog and finding his shot...he's using it in the context of making his teammates worse. Do we consider Lillard to be "selfish" in that context, just because he's the #1? I don't think so. I can't really read Nate's comments as anything but writing CJ off as an empty-stats player. Which, if he feels that way, is fine--but then that undercuts the idea that other teams' GMs would trade "useful stars" (i.e. stars that aren't empty stats) for CJ.
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I agree.
 
I wish we would play more off screen catch and shoot versus same old p&r. Nurk is better at lob city than Dame so when he gets back I want to see him high post looking for cutters or guys coming off screens.
 
Minstrel said:
I know for a fact you've said the team is better without him and that he makes other players, like Little, worse because he's selfish. "Useless" is less hyperbolic than "selfish enough to make teammates worse," so if I accidentally added "useless" (I did think you had said that but I believe you if you say you never used that exact word), that hardly changes anything.



I'm all for trading him. My point is that when making that argument, you slag him off as a player who makes teams worse, then you turn around and act like every other team would/should prefer to have him instead of their superior, two-way star.
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Useless and "makes teammates worse because he's selfish" are not even remotely the same thing. I posted a meme and if you're going to infer a bunch of subtext from a meme.... well..... I don't know. You're not usually this bombastic.

CJ is great at what CJ does, and that's call CJ's number. He's an amazing ISO player, one of the best in the league. The guy can score on anyone when he has it going. He also can fill up the box score, but when it comes to making his teammates better, he's horrible. He only passes when he absolute has to. Dame on the other hand will actively try to find his teammates.

We have multiple players that can play shooting guard right now, and at least one of them is playing at a very high level. Maybe not as well as CJ, but well enough that he makes CJ a luxury, and a very expensive luxury. I think CJ can absolutely go somewhere else and be an AllStar. He's putting up numbers that deserve to be an Allstar, and in the East he would definitely be on the team. Does that not make him worthy of similar talent in trade? Just because we don't need him to be a #1 on our team doesn't mean that he isn't capable of being that guy on another team.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Useless and "makes teammates worse because he's selfish" are not even remotely the same thing. I posted a meme and if you're going to infer a bunch of subtext from a meme.... well..... I don't know. You're not usually this bombastic.
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I don't know what meme you're talking about. "Team is better without him" and "useless" are very similar concepts. "Makes teammates worse because he's selfish" is a much harsher claim, so I'm not sure where you're getting "hyperbolic" and "bombastic" from. In these contexts, my perhaps-mistaken memory of you saying he was useless is hardly outside of the scope of the things we agree you said.

He also can fill up the box score, but when it comes to making his teammates better, he's horrible.
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This is my point. You're essentially saying he's a black hole scorer. Which teams are going want to trade a two-way star for a scorer who won't pass and makes the guys around him worse? Are you suggesting that some teams need and want a black hole that makes everyone around him worse because he can score a lot?
 
CJ an all-star in the East?

Ben Simmons
James Harden
Kyrie Irving
Khris Middleton
Bradley Beal
Jalen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Zach Lavine
Malcolm Brogdon
Trae Young
Jimmy Butler

Jrue Holiday
Gordon Hayward
Kyle Lowry
Fred Van Vleet
Terry Rozier
Colin Sexton
Lamelo Ball

I forget what the format is....5 guards and 1 at-large that can be a guard? CJ would have to beat out 12 or 13 of those guys.

and if you say that Butler and Tatum would be forwards instead of guards or at large selections, than you have to factor in Joel Embiid, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Sabonis, Siakam, Adebayo, and Vucevic (which 2 of those guys get bumped in favor of CJ?), not to mention Jerami Grant, Tobias Harris, Julius Randle, & John Collins

I suppose if you assumed that moving forward CJ was going to be the player we saw for the first 12 games of the season instead of the player we saw for the first 530 games of his career he'd have a shot. But if CJ regresses back toward his norms, I can't see him beating out 12 or of the guys on those first two lists

this "CJ would be an all-star in the East" narrative has been around for a while now, but I've never considered it as anything but a remote chance. Even more remote now with Harden and Durant in the east
 
I think a lot of people in this thread are forgetting how damn good CJ was this season before the injury setback. He's also Portland's only other shot creator, which will be a welcome addition the second-half of the season to ensure Dame doesn't overly exert himself in the regular season.

I do agree that GT is a starter in this league and I hope he's able to thrive at the 3 once CJ returns. I don't foresee any big deals being made at the deadline so we'll have the rest of the season to see how the roster starts to settle in once we get CJ and Nurk back.
 
HolyBackboard said:
I think a lot of people in this thread are forgetting how damn good CJ was this season before the injury setback. He's also Portland's only other shot creator, which will be a welcome addition the second-half of the season to ensure Dame doesn't overly exert himself in the regular season.

I do agree that GT is a starter in this league and I hope he's able to thrive at the 3 once CJ returns. I don't foresee any big deals being made at the deadline so we'll have the rest of the season to see how the roster starts to settle in once we get CJ and Nurk back.
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This....CJ is better than he's ever been in Portland...added the 3 pt shot...added assists....he's really not the player he used to be...I think the CJ baggage is dated. There are players I'd trade to upgrade positions....Trent has a ton of trade value and will get paid next season if we have to match him....that's a lot of scratch for 3 guards..they'll move Simons if they can I think and maybe Zach if you get a PF in return
 
When CJ comes back Trent will go back to the bench I don't see him starting ahead of Jones or Covington. The reason both those are better defender then Trent at there position and with CJ back in the lineup your going need good defenders around CJ and Dame.
 
Minstrel said:
I don't know what meme you're talking about. "Team is better without him" and "useless" are very similar concepts. "Makes teammates worse because he's selfish" is a much harsher claim, so I'm not sure where you're getting "hyperbolic" and "bombastic" from. In these contexts, my perhaps-mistaken memory of you saying he was useless is hardly outside of the scope of the things we agree you said.



This is my point. You're essentially saying he's a black hole scorer. Which teams are going want to trade a two-way star for a scorer who won't pass and makes the guys around him worse? Are you suggesting that some teams need and want a black hole that makes everyone around him worse because he can score a lot?
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Just because I have the opinion that CJ is too selfish for the role that we try to put him in on this team, doesn't mean that he won't work somewhere else in a different role. Stotts gives him too much rope to do whatever he wants. I have never said he's a bad player. I have said he's a frustrating player and I don't particularly care for his brand of basketball, but guess what, there are a lot of GMs out there who are morons.

Someone traded for Melo.... twice.

Someone traded for Steve Francis.

Someone traded for Allen Iverson.

Someone traded for Stephon Marbury..... at least twice.

I could go on and on listing selfish iso type players who have held high value around the league.
 
I didn’t even notice the Bucks are only 16-13. If the Bucks flame out in the playoffs again, Middleton would also be a great get for CJ. Something like CJ, Hood, and our 2023 1st for Middleton. Then re-sign Gary and go into next season with a starting lineup of:

Dame/Trent/Middleton/Covington/Nurkic
 
Natebishop3 said:
Just because I have the opinion that CJ is too selfish for the role that we try to put him in on this team, doesn't mean that he won't work somewhere else in a different role. Stotts gives him too much rope to do whatever he wants. I have never said he's a bad player. I have said he's a frustrating player and I don't particularly care for his brand of basketball, but guess what, there are a lot of GMs out there who are morons.

Someone traded for Melo.... twice.

Someone traded for Steve Francis.

Someone traded for Allen Iverson.

Someone traded for Stephon Marbury..... at least twice.

I could go on and on listing selfish iso type players who have held high value around the league.
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. But you’re hypocritical. You prefer Trent to start at SG?? He doesn’t pass at all! CJ’s playmaking was All-NBA level before he got hurt.
 
pougie said:
I didn’t even notice the Bucks are only 16-13. If the Bucks flame out in the playoffs again, Middleton would also be a great get for CJ. Something like CJ, Hood, and our 2023 1st for Middleton. Then re-sign Gary and go into next season with a starting lineup of:

Dame/Trent/Middleton/Covington/Nurkic
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That there’s a good team.
 
riverman said:
This....CJ is better than he's ever been in Portland...added the 3 pt shot...added assists....he's really not the player he used to be...I think the CJ baggage is dated. There are players I'd trade to upgrade positions....Trent has a ton of trade value and will get paid next season if we have to match him....that's a lot of scratch for 3 guards..they'll move Simons if they can I think and maybe Zach if you get a PF in return
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But you can't tell me that he added size or defense. We already have shot makers and people who will pass the ball. We need to keep Gary starting and upgrade another position. If you didn't forget how good CJ looked on offense neither did the GMs in the league. The fact is if Dame were a dominant defender then I wouldn't mind having CJ back and here to stay but Dame is not even close to a dominant defender. We need Gary next to him in the back court for the majority of the minutes at SG.

Also what is Zach's value in a sign and trade?

This idea that the Dame/CJ back court is as good as the sum of its parts is absolute insanity. They are not complementary players on offense and they are terrible, absolutely terrible together on defense. I don't need to look for proof. We literally have a better record without CJ than with him and people can talk about the team settling into the defense or schedule but the fact is if CJ were so great next to Dame (good enough for 30M per year) we wouldn't see anything but a huge drop off without him.
 
pougie said:
I didn’t even notice the Bucks are only 16-13. If the Bucks flame out in the playoffs again, Middleton would also be a great get for CJ. Something like CJ, Hood, and our 2023 1st for Middleton. Then re-sign Gary and go into next season with a starting lineup of:

Dame/Trent/Middleton/Covington/Nurkic
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I really want Middleton. He is a solid all around SF that we have needed for a long time. With how much we are giving up, I bet we could get Augustin too
 
damianlillard said:
I really want Middleton. He is a solid all around SF that we have needed for a long time. With how much we are giving up, I bet we could get Augustin too
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Getting Augustin doesn’t make too much sense to me at $14.3m over the last two years of his contract. I was thinking that ideally, Simons would play spot minutes at backup guard behind Dame/CJ/Trent for the rest of the season when CJ is back, then we re-sign him to a reasonable 3 year (maybe 3 yr/$30m) deal and he can enter his 4th year as our 6th man and have a clearly defined bigger role. Maybe he will turn into what we intended CJ to be and for the next 4 years, we’ll be getting a more explosive Lou Williams who will continue to get better with his playmaking coming off the bench to back up Dame and Trent. But to do that, Simons will need as many minutes as possible to continue to develop. Augustine doesn’t look like he’s been any better than Teague, and you could probably get Teague for cash considerations right now if you’re just looking for a backup guard who can play spot minutes.
 
pougie said:
I didn’t even notice the Bucks are only 16-13. If the Bucks flame out in the playoffs again, Middleton would also be a great get for CJ. Something like CJ, Hood, and our 2023 1st for Middleton. Then re-sign Gary and go into next season with a starting lineup of:

Dame/Trent/Middleton/Covington/Nurkic
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I like the idea of getting Jrue more. CJ and change for Jrue would set us up to be a more balanced team and Jrue/Covington/Jones switching would be nasty.
 
I don’t see that it’s time to trade CJ. He’s taken a monumental leap in offensive efficiency this year. He’s rivaling Dame. Sure CJ gets 2+ fewer assists than Dame but he also has 2 fewer turnovers. That’s probably a wash. Dame gets a lot more FTA but CJ offsets that with better shooting. CJ has always been less efficient than Dame but this year for the first time, he’s not.

Here are CJ’s improvements per 36 vs past 3 years:
TS% 0.620 up from 0.543
Assists +48%
Turnovers -35%
Steals +65%
Points +35%
FTA +28%

We definitely need him. Average players are hard to come by and he’s way above average. Who knows if he’ll keep this up but I’d like to find out..

Anyway, I do agree he’s not a good fit. So if you can get a better player or an equal player who’s a better fit, then it makes sense. But isn’t that always true for every player? I don’t think there is more reason now than before to try to trade CJ. I don’t think a small-sample hot streak is much to go on.
 
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