Tom Penn fired?

[BGrantFan]

Him creating cap space too far in the future was a failure.

That was really the only solution, though, because of Miles' fucked up situation, which Penn did not create. Plus, wasn't Rudy basically the end result of the trade exception gained by dealing Zach to the Knicks, but via the Suns and the Jones deal?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Nice try, but wrong. The improvement was immediate. It really was addition by subtraction.

Yes, because the players were not rookies anymore. Having ZBO on the team wouldn't have kept it at the status quo. The team would have improved.

There is no such thing as addition by subtraction, all things being equal.

 

[BGrantFan]

not forced to do anything. you can't predict the situation 2 years in the future. that's not how championship teams are built.

As I stated on draft day back then, there was no need to rush that shit of a trade through.

How are championship teams built? Usually a core develops, and supporting pieces are added over time. The happened with the late '80-early '90s Pistons, the Jordan/Pippen Bulls, Hakeem's Rockets, the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, and the Spurs by first adding Duncan to Robinson (which was 100% luck), and then thinking down the road about how Parker and Ginobli would project.

The obvious exception is the 2008 Celtics, which basically was what the Blazers tried to do under Whitsitt.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

How are championship teams built? Usually a core develops, and supporting pieces are added over time. The happened with the late '80-early '90s Pistons, the Jordan/Pippen Bulls, Hakeem's Rockets, the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, and the Spurs by first adding Duncan to Robinson (which was 100% luck), and then thinking down the road about how Parker and Ginobli would project.

The obvious exception is the 2008 Celtics, which basically was what the Blazers tried to do under Whitsitt.

and the L*kers last year.

Look at the championship contenders, they all make big trades to get guys at their peak to push them over the edge, not trade their best rebounder and scorer for imaginary cap space. Trading ZBO for zilch and then just letting RLEC expire.

look what happened. COMPLETELY FUCKED UP.

The biggest failures of this Blazers team is not drafting Oden, its the squandering of cap space opportunities. At least Oden could still pan out and will if he stays healthy.

 

[MickZagger]

And we gave that away for essentially nothing. Oddly enough, what are Portland's main weaknesses right now? Points in the paint and rebounding.



Therefore, Tom Penn is fired.

You missed the key word. On a bad team.

 

[MickZagger]

well, he's doing better now. now that he has better teammates around him. guys he can actually pass to.

He will basically fill your need offensively.

yeah, he has a great collection of teammates around him. He's producing numbers, which look good on paper. Yet, his team is still not making the playoffs.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

The Oregonian has the actual documents that prove Minnesota made an offer. So, it's off to the next conspiracy theory on this firing that makes now sense at all.

Talk about a conspiracy theory . . . you label this as a firing that makes no sense, even though you have no information.

This is not some big conspiracy theory against KP Penn and the agent. Management doesn't like Penn and fired him . . . they are allowed to do that. You and I have no idea why, so how can can you say a firing that makes no sense at all?

 

[maxiep]

not forced to do anything. you can't predict the situation 2 years in the future. that's not how championship teams are built.

As I stated on draft day back then, there was no need to rush that shit of a trade through.

An interesting theory. So what you're saying is that championship teams don't plan for the future? Is that why every single team on the rise is using the same method we are? I suppose it's just coincidence and, of course, you know better.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

That's a hell of an agent, IMO. He has a GM regarded as one of the best in the NBA the past 4 years who has yet to get an extension. He only goes to the media when another client of his, who also happens to be the previous mentioned GM's right-hand man, is fired out of the blue, and with no real reason given to him.

If I was an agent, and one of my clients was just fired while working alongside another client of mine, you're damn straight I'd use all information that I have to prove the Penn did not lie about receiving an offer. Since he is still allegedly negotiating KP's extension, it would makes sense to me to go public to try and get some leverage from the public.

Vulcan has fucked over the Blazer fan base before; Pritchard has not.

Yea that is one hell of an agent. Make war with the Blazers before finishing negotiations for your client. Call themback stabber, go to the press and dangle your#1 asset to prove a point. Then enter the negotiations with the Blazers . . . one hell of an agent.

 

[Minstrel]

Tom Penn created the cap space; it wasn't used.

Why do you say that it wasn't used?

 

[maxiep]

Why do you say that it wasn't used?

I meant at the trade deadline and was referring to RLEC. Of course we used the lesser amount of cap space to sign Miller.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

yeah, he has a great collection of teammates around him. He's producing numbers, which look good on paper. Yet, his team is still not making the playoffs.

The west is very competitive.

 

[maxiep]

The west is very competitive.

And yet Zach always seems to be on the short end of the stick. Shareef Abdur-Rahim anyone?

 

[MickZagger]

The west is very competitive.

Thats all you got? He's got the talent around him.

 

[BGrantFan]

Talk about a conspiracy theory . . . you label this as a firing that makes no sense, even though you have no information.

This is not some big conspiracy theory against KP Penn and the agent. Management doesn't like Penn and fired him . . . they are allowed to do that. You and I have no idea why, so how can can you say a firing that makes no sense at all?

Please allow me to amend my post to say seemingly, to me, makes no sense. I only mentioned conspiracy theories because you were going on and on about Penn lying about having an offer from Minnesota. The Oregonian states flatly that they have the documentation that Penn actually did receive the offer he and his agent said he did. If my client was being smeared, anonymously all over the media and the internet, I'd do what I could in order to shut down the smears.

The fact that you were still speculation about Penn lying to the Blazers, AFTER the information was already in the hands of the Oregonian, tells me his agent needs to do even more to get the word out that his client did not lie about an offer.

 

[BGrantFan]

and the L*kers last year.

Look at the championship contenders, they all make big trades to get guys at their peak to push them over the edge, not trade their best rebounder and scorer for imaginary cap space. Trading ZBO for zilch and then just letting RLEC expire.

look what happened. COMPLETELY FUCKED UP.

The biggest failures of this Blazers team is not drafting Oden, its the squandering of cap space opportunities. At least Oden could still pan out and will if he stays healthy.

You keep stating that the Blazers got zilch for Zach, but that's not true. They wouldn't have Rudy Fernandez without that trade. They also wouldn't have Zach's out of whack contract. Would he help the team? Maybe, but his history, as well as the Blazer history since the trade, says that Zach tends to be a good player with a bad contract on non-playoff teams, and that Rudy Fernandez plays a key role for a playoff team. Also, Andre Miller would not be on the team, since no money would have been available to sign him.

As for LA, it took the Lakers years to win a title after Shaq left. I doubt they drafted Andrew Bynum with the hopes that he'd help Kobe win a title his rookie season.

 

[barfo]

That's a hell of an agent, IMO. He has a GM regarded as one of the best in the NBA the past 4 years who has yet to get an extension. He only goes to the media when another client of his, who also happens to be the previous mentioned GM's right-hand man, is fired out of the blue, and with no real reason given to him.

That last bit - what makes you think no real reason was given to Penn? I'd assume that Penn and his agent know exactly why he was fired.

barfo

 

[BGrantFan]

Yea that is one hell of an agent. Make war with the Blazers before finishing negotiations for your client. Call themback stabber, go to the press and dangle your#1 asset to prove a point. Then enter the negotiations with the Blazers . . . one hell of an agent.

Hey, we'll have to disagree. He did what agents do, and this is a rather bizarre situation with baseless rumors being allowed to fester on boards like this one.

 

[BGrantFan]

That last bit - what makes you think no real reason was given to Penn? I'd assume that Penn and his agent know exactly why he was fired.

barfo

I guess I don't know. Strike that from my comment. I should have said no real reason made public other than "philosophical differences".

Good pick up. I certainly don't know if Penn was given a reason or if he was not.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Please allow me to amend my post to say seemingly, to me, makes no sense. I only mentioned conspiracy theories because you were going on about Penn lying about having an offer from Minnesota. The Oregonian states flatly that they have the documentation that Penn actually did receive the offer he and his agent said he did. If my client was being smeared, anonymously all over the media and the internet, I'd do what I could in order to shut down the smears.

The fact that you were still speculation about Penn lying to the Blazers, AFTER the information was already in the hands of the Oregonian, tells me his agent needs to do even more to get the word out that his client did not lie about an offer.

I've got no problem with all that . . . it is the fact he drags KP into this that I find to be unethical.

I don't know what went down with Penn and if agent wants to bitch and moan about it, fine, I guess that it is his job. But to bring in another client, who is a completely separate client, that should be handled completely separately.

Where you and I don't agree is that I don't think agent did KP any favors today and potentially hindered negotiations. You think agent did the best thing for KP today. Do I have that right?

 

[BGrantFan]

I've got no problem with all that . . . it is the fact he drags KP into this that I find to be unethical.
I don't know what went down with Penn and if agent wants to bitch and moan about it, fine, I guess that it is his job. But to bring in another client, who is a completely separate client, that should be handled completely separately.

Where you and I don't agree is that I don't think agent did KP any favors today and potentially hindered negotiations. You think agent did the best thing for KP today. Do I have that right?

How is it unethical? We can disagree on whether it is a good move, but I don't see at all how it is unethical. I also never said that agent did the best thing for KP. I said I think it was a great move to protect the interests of his client. Vulcan has fucked Roy around, Aldridge around, and now apparently Pritchard around. I see a pattern, and if Vulcan is going to play hardball, I want an agent who plays hardball. Pritchard will get another GM/VP of Operations contract. The only question is will it be in Portland, or will it be for another team in the league.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

How is it unethical? We can disagree on whether it is a good move, but I don't see at all how it is unethical. I also never said that agent did the best thing for KP. I said I think it was a great move to protect the interests of his client. Vulcan has fucked Roy around, Aldridge around, and now apparently Pritchard around. I see a pattern, and if Vulcan is going to play hardball, I want an agent who plays hardball. Pritchard will get another GM/VP of Operations contract. The only question is will it be in Portland, or will it be for another team in the league.

I believe it was unehtical because the agent was talking about Penn. I think he got so emotionally involved that he starts bad mouthing the Blazers and gets into the fact the Blazers won't extend KP in the middle of the season and that they back stabbed Penn.

How does that help KP? It doesn't. The agent should have kept his press comments to Penn (can't really hurt Penn at this stage and maybe save hime some face).

But again, to drag KP into this gives no negotiation advantage to KP and potentially could hurt (pissing off the other side through the media is not good).

If I was KP, I would be pissed. BUt maybe KP is pissed at the Blazers and likes that his agent came out and attacked the organization while using his name. Honestly, I don't know.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

It's also a scumbag move to wait for the season ticket deadline to pass before the firing of Penn.

Stay classy, Volcan.

 

[BGrantFan]

But again, to drag KP into this gives no negotiation advantage to KP and potentially could hurt (pissing off the other side through the media is not good).

If I was KP, I would be pissed. BUt maybe KP is pissed at the Blazers and likes that his agent came out and attacked the organization while using his name. Honestly, I don't know.

If Pritchard's agent speaking about his client in public is going to hurt Pritchard in terms of getting a contract, then I have to wonder more about the business acumen of Vulcan. It's business, and Vulcan plays hardball with everybody (other than Comcast, but then again, Comcast is paying them, and not the other way around). Since I have Comcast, I really don't care, either.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It's also a scumbag move to wait for the season ticket deadline to pass before the firing of Penn.

Stay classy, Volcan.

I wonder if some would not have renewed their season tickets if Penn got fired the day/week before?

I don't see it as having an impact on ticket sales . . . but I could be wrong.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

If Pritchard's agent speaking about his client in public is going to hurt Pritchard in terms of getting a contract, then I have to wonder more about the business acumen of Vulcan. It's business, and Vulcan plays hardball with everybody (other than Comcast, but then again, Comcast is paying them, and not the other way around). Since I have Comcast, I really don't care, either.

You think Vulcan played hardball with Roy and Aldridge?

If that was Vulcan's version of hardball, they need to work on that. Hardball is not resigning Roy or giving Aldrdige a hefty (some say overpaid) contract and forcing them to test the restricted free agent market during a down economic time (like the Griz are doing to Gay).

Do you think an agent bad mouthing an organization, calling them back stabber and publically questioning why they didn't extend the client's contract already is a good thing for the agent to do before entering negotiations for their client?

 

[BGrantFan]

You think Vulcan played hardball with Roy and Aldridge?

If that was Vulcan's version of hardball, they need to work on that. Hardball is not resigning Roy or giving Aldrdige a hefty (some say overpaid) contract and forcing them to test the restricted free agent market during a down economic time (like the Griz are doing to Gay).

Do you think an agent bad mouthing an organization, calling them back stabber and publically questioning why they didn't extend the client's contract already is a good thing for the agent to do before entering negotiations for their client?

As you previously posted, perhaps Pritchard is fed up with the Vulcan bullshit and didn't care if his agent expressed his displeasure. I'm sure Pritchard wasn't thrilled with taking the public heat for an email that Larry Miller/Vulcan sent Memphis, whining about how they were going to sue the Grizz for daring to sign Darius Miles and play him 10 games. A bunch of number crunchers trying to run an NBA team. It's comical. Vulcan seemingly can't get out of their own way.

 

[RR7]

While for us, it's not the best thing for Pritchard, because we, or some of us, anyways might want him extended, I'm sure KP wouldn't struggle to get a job immediately in the NBA.

 

[Masbee]

Just to play devil's advocate, why is the fact that KP did the same thing that any other GM did (draft Oden) any kind of defense? Is a mistake that other people would have made any less of a mistake? But more to the point, if he's all that special, shouldn't he be doing things that are uncommonly right instead of commonly wrong?

Canzano's point is that KP has done enough good (more than enough to make up for the mistakes) to justify his support by the team, and he questions the ability of the team to find a "special" GM if they were to fire KP. KP may or may not be "special", but if you don't have an obvious improvement to replace them where are you going with it?

I fear this as Canzano does. Remember the Aldeman turns into PJ Carlesimo disaster? What the hell was management thinking then? Then they fixed it by getting Dunleavy. Great. But, was Dunleavy any better than Aldeman. NO! Then they dump Dunleavy for failing to corral the misfit crew, and bring in Cheeks. Jesus. Hated that move from day 1. All these moves amounted to a big fucking waste of time, energy, distraction, etc. Motion for motion's sake. This is what Canzano is alluding to when he invokes the spector of dark forces within Vulcan making moves to justify their existence. Doesn't mean his story is fact, just that this shit HAS happened before.

 

[e_blazer]

Originally Posted by PtldPlatypus
Just to play devil's advocate, why is the fact that KP did the same thing that any other GM did (draft Oden) any kind of defense? Is a mistake that other people would have made any less of a mistake? But more to the point, if he's all that special, shouldn't he be doing things that are uncommonly right instead of commonly wrong?

To me, a mistake is when you make an error of judgment by incorrectly evaluating the information available to you at the time you make the decision. It's not a mistake when, after you've made the decision, circumstances change in ways that you had no way of predicting that, had you known those changes would occur, would argue that you should have decided differently. KP, and nobody else either, had any way of knowing that Oden was going to have these knee problems so early in his career. He had no way of knowing that Durant wouldn't suffer similar injuries in his first three season. Even with the best of research and logical evaluation of information, life sometimes serves you up some crap to deal with that you didn't anticipate.