Too 5 NBA Players All Time= Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, and Duncan

[KingSpeed]

/threadclosed

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Kobe over Shaq?

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Kareem?

 

[KingSpeed]

Kobe over Shaq?

Yes. Shaq was fully unstoppable. There was no team or player who cold stop Shaq in his prime. Kobe takes crappy shots and does things like refusing to shoot in the second half of a game 7 vs Phoenix. Goes 7-22 vs Celtics Game 6 in 2008. 6 of 24 in Game 7 2010. Kobe was and is stoppable. Shaq no. Kareem is a fine player but he's not better than those five. Maybe 6th place. I don't include Bill Russell because Russell was basically the best role player of all time. You couldn't run your offense through him and count on him for 20 points in a game 7.

 

[MAS RipCity]

Hakeem has to be in the Top 5, he's the greatest center to have ever played the game...the footwork, the post moves, the defense..no other big could do it all like him. And what separates him from the other great bigs from other eras is that I believe, Hakeem would dominate in today's NBA just as he did in the 80's/90's.

Dream, MJ, Magic are definitely 3 of the 5, the other 2 are up for debate.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Kareem is a fine player but he's not better than those five. Maybe 6th place.

Precisely how is Duncan better than Kareem?

 

[OregonHuskerMan]

LeBron...?

 

[jlprk]

Did a Laker fan start this thread?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Kobe over Shaq?

Shaq was finals mvp for three rings...by a wide margin. Gasol should have been finals mvp for the last lakers ring...kobe was only "the man" once.

hoop fam

 

[oldguy]

The Big O.

Go Blazers

 

[blazerboy30]

/threadclosed

Did you ever see Wilt play?

No, you didn't.

Learn the game, then post.

 

[Reep]

No Russel?

 

[MARIS61]

Shaq doesn't even make the top 20. Probably the most limited skillset of any starting center in his era.

Had he been a big clumsy white tub of goo rather than a big clumsy black tub of goo he'd probably never have lasted in the league, due to foul trouble.

 

[Denny Crane]

Shaq doesn't even make the top 20. Probably the most limited skillset of any starting center in his era.

Had he been a big clumsy white tub of goo rather than a big clumsy black tub of goo he'd probably never have lasted in the league, due to foul trouble.

The clumsy oaf managed to score 24 points a game for his career and grab over 11 rebounds per game for his career as well. As if he didn't have actual basketball skills, he blocked 2.3 shots a game for his career, and dished 2.6 assists per game for his career. He was a perennial all-star and made the all nba teams 15 times. He had a 30+ PER three times, and won 4 championships.

His skill set may have been very close to Wilt's, right down to the poor FT shooting. I saw them both play.

 

[KingSpeed]

Did you ever see Wilt play?

No, you didn't.

Learn the game, then post.

I've seen two games on video. My Dad was a sportswriter for the NY Times when Wilt was in his prime. He says that Wilt is the most unstoppable player he's ever seen.

Have YOU ever seen Wilt play..

 

[KingSpeed]

No Russel?

Russell was a role player.

 

[blue9]

The clumsy oaf managed to score 24 points a game for his career and grab over 11 rebounds per game for his career as well. As if he didn't have actual basketball skills, he blocked 2.3 shots a game for his career, and dished 2.6 assists per game for his career. He was a perennial all-star and made the all nba teams 15 times. He had a 30+ PER three times, and won 4 championships.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Certainly during his Laker days I wrote him off as an unskilled oaf. But in reality he did develop a nice baby hook and was a pretty decent passer. However, he was also officiated differently than other players, and that's what allowed him to dominate the league. I would venture a guess that he got away with an offensive foul on 50% of his shots - that's a total shot in the dark, maybe it's much more, maybe it's much less...but it feels like a slightly conservative guess. If he hadn't been allowed to push his defenders out of the way he'd still certainly be an imposing player, but he probably wouldn't have dominated the league.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Certainly during his Laker days I wrote him off as an unskilled oaf. But in reality he did develop a nice baby hook and was a pretty decent passer. However, he was also officiated differently than other players, and that's what allowed him to dominate the league. I would venture a guess that he got away with an offensive foul on 50% of his shots - that's a total shot in the dark, maybe it's much more, maybe it's much less...but it feels like a slightly conservative guess. If he hadn't been allowed to push his defenders out of the way he'd still certainly be an imposing player, but he probably wouldn't have dominated the league.

Funny thing is I think he was hammered on by defenders because he was so strong and hard to defend. Because of his size and strength, the defenders hit him really hard, too, even though it really hurt him.

Moses Malone was a similar kind of player - big, strong. The officials let him get away with 3 second violations virtually all of the time. He consistently led the league in offensive boards.

 

[blazerboy30]

I've seen two games on video. My Dad was a sportswriter for the NY Times when Wilt was in his prime. He says that Wilt is the most unstoppable player he's ever seen.

Have YOU ever seen Wilt play..

I'm not the one claiming he's a top 5 player ever.

 

[blazerboy30]

The clumsy oaf managed to score 24 points a game for his career and grab over 11 rebounds per game for his career as well. As if he didn't have actual basketball skills, he blocked 2.3 shots a game for his career, and dished 2.6 assists per game for his career. He was a perennial all-star and made the all nba teams 15 times. He had a 30+ PER three times, and won 4 championships.

His skill set may have been very close to Wilt's, right down to the poor FT shooting. I saw them both play.

I think it depends if somebody's "top" players is based on fundamentals and skill, or how much they dominated a game and their production.

In terms of how much a player dominated a game, a prime Shaq, is only second to MJ in my lifetime.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Shaq > Kareem

 

[Denny Crane]

I think it depends if somebody's "top" players is based on fundamentals and skill, or how much they dominated a game and their production.

In terms of how much a player dominated a game, a prime Shaq, is only second to MJ in my lifetime.

Shaq was a remarkable and dominating player. I didn't call him a top 5 player. I just thought it was silly to suggest he sucked and he'd have had a short career if he were white.

I think Kareem was better, FWIW. Dominating and highly skilled at all aspects of he game.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Russell was a role player.

Yeah, his role was to lead his team to 11 NBA championships.

Defense and rebounding wins championships. Russel was amazing at both, especially in the playoffs. And, he could score, too - when needed. During his prime, Russell had a three year stretch where he averaged 20.8 ppg, 26.9 rpg and 5.0 apg. Some role player.

He was also one of the greatest defenders to ever play the game. He led the league in defensive win shares 11 times during his 13 year career and is the all time leader in defensive win shares. In 13 seasons, Russell accumulated 133.6 defensive win shares - more than twice the 66.4 defensive win shares Shaq totaled in 19 NBA seasons.

There is more to basketball, especially playoff basketball, than scoring. Wilt (93.9 DWS), Russell (133.6 DWS), Kareem (94.5 DWS) and Hakeem (94.5 DWS) all belong ahead of Shaq (66.4 DWS) on any list of greatest NBA centers. They all played MUCH better defense and were much better rebounders than Shaq.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

The clumsy oaf managed to score 24 points a game for his career and grab over 11 rebounds per game for his career as well. As if he didn't have actual basketball skills, he blocked 2.3 shots a game for his career, and dished 2.6 assists per game for his career. He was a perennial all-star and made the all nba teams 15 times. He had a 30+ PER three times, and won 4 championships.

His skill set may have been very close to Wilt's, right down to the poor FT shooting. I saw them both play.

Wilt was a much better rebounder (22.9 rpg), a better passer (4.4 apg), a better defender (93.9 DWS) and a much more dominant scorer (30.1 ppg) in his prime. He was also much more durable. The last three years of his career, at ages 34, 35 and 36 he played in all 82 games and averaged over 43 mpg - and led the league in rebounding all three years. For his entire career, he averaged 45.8 mpg.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Shaq > Kareem

Umm... no. For some reason, people don't seem to realize how dominant Kareem was in his prime. He averaged over 30 ppg 4 times (something Shaq never did). He is the all time leader in total win shares (273.4), by a large margin. Shaq's career win shares = 181.7. Kareem led the league in total win shares 9 times. Shaq did it twice. Kareem averaged over 16 rpg 4 times. Shaq's career best was 13.9 rpg (his rookie year). Kareem had a 7 year stretch where he averaged over 3.0 bpg (it would have been 11 straight years, but they didn't start keeping blocks until his 5th season). Shaq only averaged > 3.0 bpg once (again, his rookie year). Kareem averaged over 4.0 apg 8 times. Shaq's career best was 3.4 apg.

So, Kareem was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer and better defender. What, exactly was Shaq better at????

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Wilt was a much better rebounder (22.9 rpg), a better passer (4.4 apg), a better defender (93.9 DWS) and a much more dominant scorer (30.1 ppg) in his prime. He was also much more durable. The last three years of his career, at ages 34, 35 and 36 he played in all 82 games and averaged over 43 mpg - and led the league in rebounding all three years. For his entire career, he averaged 45.8 mpg.

BNM

Wilt grabbed big rebound numbers, true. But look at his contemporaries.

Like the season Wilt set the record for RPG at ~27, 2 other guys averaged 20+, 6'5" Elgin Baylor came close (19.8), and quite a few averaged 12+. This year, only DHoward had 12+. Big rebounding numbers back then were far more common.

 

[Denny Crane]

Umm... no. For some reason, people don't seem to realize how dominant Kareem was in his prime. He averaged over 30 ppg 4 times (something Shaq never did). He is the all time leader in total win shares (273.4), by a large margin. Shaq's career win shares = 181.7. Kareem led the league in total win shares 9 times. Shaq did it twice. Kareem averaged over 16 rpg 4 times. Shaq's career best was 13.2 rpg (his rookie year). Kareem had a 7 year stretch where he averaged over 3.0 bpg (it would have been 11 straight years, but they didn't start keeping blocks until his 5th season). Shaq only averaged > 3.0 bpg once (again, his rookie year). Kareem averaged over 4.0 apg 8 times. Shaq's career best was 3.4 apg.

So, Kareem was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer and better defender. What, exactly was Shaq better at????

BNM

Shaq averaged 13.6 RPG and 3.8 APG and 3 BPG in 1999-00 at age 27.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Wilt grabbed big rebound numbers, true. But look at his contemporaries.

Like the season Wilt set the record for RPG at ~27, 2 other guys averaged 20+, 6'5" Elgin Baylor came close (19.8), and quite a few averaged 12+. This year, only DHoward had 12+. Big rebounding numbers back then were far more common.

If you want to skip the actual numbers and look at it in terms of relative dominance: Wilt led the league in rebounding 11 times. Shaq led the league in rebounding 0 times. I think it's pretty obvious who was the better rebounder. Given his huge size and strength advantage over his contemporaries, Shaq should have regularly led the league in rebounding, but it was never a priority for him and he just didn't put in the effort. Same with defense, where he spent most of his career coasting on the defensive end of the court.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Like the season Wilt set the record for RPG at ~27, 2 other guys averaged 20+, 6'5" Elgin Baylor came close (19.8).

And, during the prime of his career, Shaq was consistently outrebounded by 6'6" (actual 6'4.5") Charles Barkley, 6'8" Dennis Rodman and 6'8" Ben Wallace. Shaq was a very poor rebounder for his size.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

If you want to skip the actual numbers and look at it in terms of relative dominance: Wilt led the league in rebounding 11 times. Shaq led the league in rebounding 0 times. I think it's pretty obvious who was the better rebounder. Given his huge size and strength advantage over his contemporaries, Shaq should have regularly led the league in rebounding, but it was never a priority for him and he just didn't put in the effort. Same with defense, where he spent most of his career coasting on the defensive end of the court.

BNM

Shaq played in an era with a number of skilled big men. I think he finished 2nd a lot, to guys like Mutombo who specialized in defense and rebounding.