Too 5 NBA Players All Time= Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, and Duncan

[PtldPlatypus]

So, Kareem was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer and better defender. What, exactly was Shaq better at????

BNM

Kareem played in a much faster-paced era than Shaq, so the per game numbers are misleading. Compare the advanced stats.

• eFG%--Shaq .582, Kareem .559.
• TRB%--Shaq 17.8, Kareem 15.7
• Blk%--Shaq 4.5, Kareem 3.8
• TOV%--Shaq 11.9, Kareem 13.4

There are plenty of other places where Kareem is superior, but it's disingenuous to say that Shaq wasn't better in any significant category.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

My All Time Starting 5:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson / John Stockton

 

[Boob-No-More]

Kareem played in a much faster-paced era than Shaq, so the per game numbers are misleading. Compare the advanced stats.

• eFG%--Shaq .582, Kareem .559.
• TRB%--Shaq 17.8, Kareem 15.7
• Blk%--Shaq 4.5, Kareem 3.8
• TOV%--Shaq 11.9, Kareem 13.4

Kareem's career averages are skewed because he played until he was 42 - and still played 78 - 80 games a year in his late 30s and early 40s. Shaq played until he was 38, but only averaged 54 games per season over his last six years in the league. So, his career totals were not as negatively impacted by his declining late career production.

And, the one advanced stat you didn't mention is win shares. Kareem had far greater defensive win shares, offensive win shares and total win shares than Shaq, both during his prime and over the course of his career. Kareem led the league in total win shares and WS/48 9 times. Shaq led the league in both categories twice.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

I thought Walton and Kareem were near equals, in spite of statistical differences. Yet Walton MUST be disqualified because of his injuries? I don't think so.

Kareem wins the "better fit at age 40" comparison.

Remember, I think Kareem was the better player. That doesn't diminish how great Shaq was, too.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Shaq played in an era with a number of skilled big men. I think he finished 2nd a lot, to guys like Mutombo who specialized in defense and rebounding.

Oh please, during the prime of Shaq's career, the center position was the weakest it's ever been. With all the expansion, the talent level was extremely diluted. Sure, the early part of Shaq's career overlapped with Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem, but by the time Shaq entered his prime, those guys were all well past theirs, or out of the league. The fact that guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, who both struggled to score 10 ppg, regularly made 2nd team All-NBA, tells you just how weak the center position was during Shaq's prime.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I thought Walton and Kareem were near equals, in spite of statistical differences.

For about 1.5 seasons. Kareem was a better scorer, by far, but Walton did other things better. The difference was Kareem played at a very high level for nearly 20 years (19 time all-star). Walton was a 2 time all-star.

Yet Walton MUST be disqualified because of his injuries? I don't think so.

From a list of all-time great players, you better believe it does. How can you possibly rank him ahead of guys who were as good, or better, than his best, but did it over a MUCH longer period? Walton was one of my all-time favorite players, but in terms of all-time greats, no way does he belong in the Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc. class.

Kareem wins the "better fit at age 40" comparison.

Well, if that's the comparison, Kareem wins the "better fit at any age" comparison.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh please, during the prime of Shaq's career, the center position was the weakest it's ever been. With all the expansion, the talent level was extremely diluted. Sure, the early part of Shaq's career overlapped with Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem, but by the time Shaq entered his prime, those guys were all well past theirs, or out of the league. The fact that guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, who both struggled to score 10 ppg, regularly made 2nd team All-NBA, tells you just how weak the center position was during Shaq's prime.

BNM

These guys played during shaq's peak years:

David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Mutombo, LaFrentz, Ostertag, Campbell, Divac, etc. true centers. That's 2000, when Shaq was 28.

Earlier, when he was with Orlando, those guys were younger and you can include Ewing and Hakeem.

I don't see where he was any less dominant when he played against some of the best centers in history, and against a legit C (not PF playing C) most nights.

 

[Denny Crane]

For about 1.5 seasons. Kareem was a better scorer, by far, but Walton did other things better. The difference was Kareem played at a very high level for nearly 20 years (19 time all-star). Walton was a 2 time all-star.



From a list of all-time great players, you better believe it does. How can you possibly rank him ahead of guys who were as good, or better, than his best, but did it over a MUCH longer period? Walton was one of my all-time favorite players, but in terms of all-time greats, no way does he belong in the Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc. class.



Well, if that's the comparison, Kareem wins the "better fit at any age" comparison.

BNM

Walton is in the Hall of Fame. By definition, that makes him on the list of all-time great players. He made it in spite of never? playing even 70 games in a season. He was that good.

Again, I saw him play. So did the HoF electors. He was every bit the rebounder and shot blocker Kareem was. Better on defense. A much better passer (maybe the greatest passing C ever), and he hustled all the time. He won championships with two franchises, as Kareem and Wilt (and Shaq) did.

I can say I have near 100% confidence that Walton would have played as well, or better, if his career progressed without injuries. Unlike my lack of confidence that Charles Barkley would perennially lead the league in rebounding.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

Walton is in the Hall of Fame. By definition, that makes him on the list of all-time great players. He made it in spite of never? playing even 70 games in a season. He was that good.

Again, I saw him play. So did the HoF electors. He was every bit the rebounder and shot blocker Kareem was. Better on defense. A much better passer (maybe the greatest passing C ever), and he hustled all the time. He won championships with two franchises, as Kareem and Wilt (and Shaq) did.

I can say I have near 100% confidence that Walton would have played as well, or better, if his career progressed without injuries. Unlike my lack of confidence that Charles Barkley would perennially lead the league in rebounding.

For 1 and 1/2 seasons, Bill Walton was the greatest Center in the history of the NBA. Bar none. Owned the game and made every player on his team better. Could take over games at whim. Was the total package: scoring, rebounding, passing, playmaking, being a floor general, hustle. Destroyed Kareem in Jabbar's prime. *sigh* what might have been if not for those feet....

 

[Boob-No-More]

These guys played during shaq's peak years:

David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Mutombo, LaFrentz, Ostertag, Campbell, Divac, etc. true centers. That's 2000, when Shaq was 28.

Seriously, If that's your best argument, I rest my case.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Walton is in the Hall of Fame. By definition, that makes him on the list of all-time great players. He made it in spite of never? playing even 70 games in a season. He was that good.

That does not "by definition" put him on the list of all time NBA greats (depends on how long your list is). There is no NBA Hall of Fame. It's the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. Walton made the hall based on his combined college and pro careers. If it was just based on NBA accomplishments, he would not have made it due to the shortness of his career. If anything, he accomplished more in college than the pros. It is the strength of his college career, combined with a very brief, but outstanding pro career that got him into the Hall of Fame.

BNM

 

[blue9]

Seriously, If that's your best argument, I rest my case.

BNM

Hehehe - that's what I was thinking when I saw those bolded names too. Funny that those names made the cut, but Dale Davis didn't?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Hehehe - that's what I was thinking when I saw those bolded names too. Funny that those names made the cut, but Dale Davis didn't?

And if those were the BEST opponents Shaq faced in his prime (BTW, Morning was done the next year with his kidney ailment), what's that say about the other 23 centers Shaq faced on a nightly basis?

BNM

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Kareem's career averages are skewed because he played until he was 42 - and still played 78 - 80 games a year in his late 30s and early 40s. Shaq played until he was 38, but only averaged 54 games per season over his last six years in the league. So, his career totals were not as negatively impacted by his declining late career production.

And, the one advanced stat you didn't mention is win shares. Kareem had far greater defensive win shares, offensive win shares and total win shares than Shaq, both during his prime and over the course of his career. Kareem led the league in total win shares and WS/48 9 times. Shaq led the league in both categories twice.

BNM

You're right, I didn't mention win shares--but I did specifically state, "There are plenty of other places where Kareem is superior." Obviously, win shares is one of them. However, I'm not trying to claim that Shaq is better than Kareem; I'm arguing that they're comparable. Pointing out that win shares is is Kareem's favor doesn't contradict the fact that several advanced stats are in Shaq's. Also, if you want to argue that Kareem's career numbers are reduced by him playing more years, then you can look at their best seasons in those various advanced stats and see that Shaq is right there with Kareem there too. Kareem's win shares are also inflated by the number of seasons he played, as well as by playing half his career with Magic, and his best seasons with the Big O.

One place where Shaq can't compete with Kareem, however, was on screen. Airplane! was far superior to Blue Chips.

 

[Denny Crane]

Hehehe - that's what I was thinking when I saw those bolded names too. Funny that those names made the cut, but Dale Davis didn't?

Ostertag was a 7'2" 280lb center. The real deal. He played in two NBA finals against the Bulls.

 

[blue9]

Ostertag was a 7'2" 280lb center. The real deal. He played in two NBA finals against the Bulls.

Yeah, he's certainly the best of those three. But c'mon - he's not great by any stretch of the imagination. He's a better version of Joel P.
And Mark Madsen is a champion! Good thing Shaq played WITH him rather than against him.

 

[Denny Crane]

Maybe it's a good idea to look at who Kareem played against.

These are the starting centers in the NBA when Kareem was a rookie.

Willis Reed. 6'7" Wes Unseld. Darrall Imhoff. Connie Dierking. Hank Finkel. Otto Moore. Jim Davis. 33 year old Wilt. Jim Fox. Tom Boerwinkle. Bob Rule. Nate Thurmond. Elvin Hayes.

How about Kareem's best season, 34 PPG?

Dave Cowens. Jerry Lucas. Bob Rule. Elmore Smith. Unseld. Walt Bellamy. Sam Lacey. Walt Wesley. Boerwinkle. Neal Walk. Bob Lanier. 35 year old Wilt. Thurmond. Zaid Abdul-Aziz. Hayes. Dale Schlueter.

So why is it a stretch to talk about Ostertag when Kareem got to pad his stats against Zaid Abdul-Aziz?

 

[Denny Crane]

Interesting stat.

Since Kareem came into the league, the only centers who led the league in scoring:

Kareem (2x), McAdoo (3x, though he was a PF/C), Robinson (once), and Shaq (twice). 43 years, 8 times led by a center.

 

[KingSpeed]

I'm not the one claiming he's a top 5 player ever.

Good. So we are clear. YOU are the one who needs to learn the game before posting. Head to YouTube and get back to me. There are full games of Wilt on there.

 

[jlprk]

Poor Shaq carried a 70-pound backback full of fat, so his effectiveness was way below his potential. Jabbar had all the raw talent of Chamberlain, but Wooden taught him a controlled, thoughtful style which made him 10 times the defender than he was offender, 36 ppg notwithstanding. Walton was more conventional than Jabbar in that he devoted less energy to scoring which made him the most powerful center defender ever, while tying Jabbar and Russell for most cerebral center defender ever.

Ignoring longevity, they rank Walton, Jabbar, Chamberlain. Shaq's not in that class.

 

[Sinobas]

Shaq was not a good basketball player, he was very big and strong, and was allowed to muscle guys in ways that would usually draw an offensive foul. Duncan is also good, but would not put him in the top 5. You can make as strong an argument for magic jordan and wilt as any other player at their position, but Larry Bird has to be up there too.

 

[jlprk]

Yes, Bird. I'd replace Magic with Bird. The defensive engine of the 80s Lakers was Jabbar. Magic was just showtime icing on the cake.

 

[magnifier661]

Shaq > Kareem

Shaq had the worst work ethic I've seen in a big. If he just worked the offseason like most nba players; he could of been the best player ever!

Instead he just had his summer vacations of gaining weight and enjoying life; then used the first part of the seasons to rehab from injury.

 

[magnifier661]

We can hate if shaq all we want; but te dude played against some of the best in the league.

Wilt only had to worry about Russell and it seemed he got the better if him on most occasions. In Wilts day; the league didn't have too many dominant bigs.

Also; shaq had tons of offensive fouls called on him; while I watched players hang on his arms in feeble attempts to stop him. He was fouled almost every time he touched the ball.

I will admit that I watched Kareem a lot since I lived in Los Angeles from 86. He was definitely dominant; but in a finesse way. Shaq was pure in your face; duck for cover center. He was a fucking beast!

I admit I absolutely hated him as a player. He talked the most trash and thought he was Gods gift to the nba. But I can't discount his dominance!

 

[Denny Crane]

My bet would be the shot went in.

 

[jlprk]

Wilt only had to worry about Russell and it seemed he got the better if him on most occasions. In Wilts day; the league didn't have too many dominant bigs...

I will admit that I watched Kareem a lot since I lived in Los Angeles from 86.

Your last 2 posts disagree with each other. You do that a lot. The Jabbar you saw was in his late 30s. He was unstoppable as a young Buck.

As for Wilt's opponents, I quickly thought of Thurmond (defense) and Bellamy (offense) so I ran this. There were more good 60s centers than you realize.

http://bkref.com/tiny/nSnan

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[Denny Crane]

Your last 2 posts disagree with each other. You do that a lot. The Jabbar you saw was in his late 30s. He was unstoppable as a young Buck.

As for Wilt's opponents, I quickly thought of Thurmond (defense) and Bellamy (offense) so I ran this. There were more good 60s centers than you realize.

http://bkref.com/tiny/nSnan

5 of those guys had a PER over 20. Roughly like Joakim Noah two seasons ago. Impressive!

Andre Blatche PER last season would put him in the top 20.

 

[jlprk]

Height was measured barefoot then. Now it's in shoes. As for Russell, greatness is greatness across the ages. No one can explain Tim Duncan, either.

 

[magnifier661]

Dang wilt had some hops!