Too 5 NBA Players All Time= Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, and Duncan

[BigGameDamian]

Just how much better was Tim Duncan than David Robinson?

 

[magnifier661]

Just how much better was Tim Duncan than David Robinson?

If you measure titles; a lot better... But I was a huge admiral fan. He was the most agile big man I saw in person.

 

[OregonHuskerMan]

Magic
Jordan
LeBron
Russell
Kareem

Easy. Hardest omission for me is the Big O or Duncan.

 

[OregonHuskerMan]

If you measure titles; a lot better... But I was a huge admiral fan. He was the most agile big man I saw in person.

Quadruple double. Very good player.

 

[Denny Crane]

Quadruple double. Very good player.

Shaq must have had at least on quadruple double. Points, rebounds, blocks, and missed FTAs.

 

[jlprk]

The years should be connected by straight lines. The talent and effort gaps are amusingly-placed.

If you move the red line left so they start together, both lines' ups and downs agree a lot.

In Jabbar's missing 2 years on the left, his college years, he learned great defense. This caused his line to extend far to the right. In other words, great defense is why the NBA wanted Jabbar even when his PER fell. Shaq wasn't a great defender, so when his PER fell he was out.

 

[STOMP]

So, Kareem was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer and better defender. What, exactly was Shaq better at????

eating

STOMP

 

[BBert]

Wow. Just wow. Wilt and Jabbar/Alcindor were the two best centers to ever play basketball. In a class by themselves. Hakeem and Walton were next tier, and Walton only for a year and half, so he's basically disqualified. Both the Admiral and Duncan (if he'd been listed as a center) also were better than Shaq. And yes, so was Bill Russell. Shaq was a giant who be shear force and NBA favoritism was able to dominate (I agree with Sinobas: It is unprecedented the way Shaq got away with offensive fouls and travelling for most of his career). Shaq was not the basketball player those other guys were.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Ostertag was a 7'2" 280lb center. The real deal. He played in two NBA finals against the Bulls.

Yes, but at the end of the day, he's still Greg Ostertag, Big White Stiff personified. The fact that you can make a credible case that a guy with career averages of 4.6 ppg and 5.5 rpg was legitimately a top 5 center in the league during the prime of Shaq's career is more convincing than any argument I can muster.

I'm sure if Greg Ostertag ever googles himself, he'll be delighted to know that he'll go down in the annals if internet basketball lore as one of Shaq's toughest match-ups and biggest rivals. Never mind Wilt/Russell, Shaq/Ostertag was a rivalry for the ages.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, but at the end of the day, he's still Greg Ostertag, Big White Stiff personified. The fact that you can make a credible case that a guy with career averages of 4.6 ppg and 5.5 rpg was legitimately a top 5 center in the league during the prime of Shaq's career is more convincing than any argument I can muster.

I'm sure if Greg Ostertag ever googles himself, he'll be delighted to know that he'll go down in the annals if internet basketball lore as one of Shaq's toughest match-ups and biggest rivals. Never mind Wilt/Russell, Shaq/Ostertag was a rivalry for the ages.

BNM

I didn't say Ostertag was a top 5 center. You act like Shaq wasn't guarded, and you conveniently ignore how Kareem played against guys like Zaid Abdul-Aziz. HE was a top 5 (or close to it) C of the time.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Maybe it's a good idea to look at who Kareem played against.

How about Kareem's best season, 34 PPG?

Dave Cowens = Hall of Fame
Jerry Lucas = Hall of Fame
Bob Rule
Elmore Smith = blocked 393 shots in 73-74, third highest single season total in league history
Wes Unseld = Hall of Fame
Walt Bellamy = Hall of Fame
Sam Lacey
Walt Wesley
Tom Boerwinkle
Neal Walk
Bob Lanier = Hall of Fame
35 year old Wilt = Hall of Fame, led the league in rebounding and FG%
Nate Thurmond = Hall of Fame
Zaid Abdul-Aziz
Elvin Hayes = Hall of Fame
Dale Schlueter

So why is it a stretch to talk about Ostertag when Kareem got to pad his stats against Zaid Abdul-Aziz?

Simple: Abdul-Azis was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a top 5 center during Kareem's prime. There were only 17 teams in the league in 71-72, the year Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg. You just named 8 Hall of Famers from that season, plus guys like Elmore Smith and Tom Boerwinkle were better players than Ostertag. Half the guys Kareem faced that season were future Hall of Famers.

In another post, you made a strong case that Greg Ostertag was a top 5 center during the prime of Shaq's career. Is Greg Ostertag in the Hall of Fame? Hell no. Of the guys Shaq played against in his prime, 2 or 3 might make it into the Hall of Fame - and there were 29 teams in the league at that time. So, 50% of Kareem's opponents, during his prime, were future Hall of Famers. During Shaq's prime, roughly 10% of his opponents were future Hall of Famers.

Now do you understand how Shaq was able to pad his stats against inferior opponents when the league talent pool was diluted by expansion and a lack of quality big men?

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Dave Cowens = Hall of Fame
Jerry Lucas = Hall of Fame
Bob Rule
Elmore Smith = blocked 393 shots in 73-74, third highest single season total in league history
Wes Unseld = Hall of Fame
Walt Bellamy = Hall of Fame
Sam Lacey
Walt Wesley
Tom Boerwinkle
Neal Walk
Bob Lanier = Hall of Fame
35 year old Wilt = Hall of Fame, led the league in rebounding and FG%
Nate Thurmond = Hall of Fame
Zaid Abdul-Aziz
Elvin Hayes = Hall of Fame
Dale Schlueter



Simple: Abdul-Azis was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a top 5 center during Kareem's prime. There were only 17 teams in the league in 71-72, the year Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg. You just named 8 Hall of Famers from that season, plus guys like Elmore Smith and Tom Boerwinkle were better players than Ostertag. Half the guys Kareem faced that season were future Hall of Famers.

In another post, you made a strong case that Greg Ostertag was a top 5 center during the prime of Shaq's career. Is Greg Ostertag in the Hall of Fame? Hell no. Of the guys Shaq played against in his prime, 2 or 3 might make it into the Hall of Fame - and there were 29 teams in the league at that time. So, 50% of Kareem's opponents, during his prime, were future Hall of Famers. During Shaq's prime, roughly 10% of his opponents were future Hall of Famers.

Now do you understand how Shaq was able to pad his stats against inferior opponents when the league talent pool was diluted by expansion and a lack of quality big men?

BNM

I made no such case. Shaq played against Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Dougherty, Smits, Divac, Seikally, Parrish.

You make the case Ostertag is top 5 among that group, then argue against it. Familiar!

Shaq also played against guys like Duckworth, and freaks like Shawn Bradley and Manute Bol.

You scoffed at Mutombo, who was DPOY 4 times, 8x all star, and a career PER over 17. What strawman next?

 

[Boob-No-More]

I didn't say Ostertag was a top 5 center.

Here's the guys you listed as the best centers in the league during Shaq's best year (1999-2000):

David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Mutombo, LaFrentz, Ostertag, Campbell, Divac, etc. true centers. That's 2000, when Shaq was 28.

Clearly Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo were better than Ostertag, as was Vlade. That leaves Ostertag as arguably Shaq's 5th toughest opponent. And, it only got worse from there. Robinson was on the verge of retirement and Zo's career was cut short due to kidney disease. For the rest of Shaq's prime, Mutombo, 6'8" Ben Wallace, and occasionally Yao Ming on the rare occasions when he was healthy, were Shaq's toughest opponents. By then, the league had expanded to 30 teams and at most 10% of those teams had future Hall of Famers playing center for them.

you conveniently ignore how Kareem played against guys like Zaid Abdul-Aziz. HE was a top 5 (or close to it) C of the time.

No, I didn't ignore it. And no, Abdul-Azis was nowhere near a top 5 center during Kareem's prime. There were Kareem, plus 8 other Hall of Famers ahead of him, plus guys like Elmore Smith and Tom Boerwinkle were also clearly better. At absolute best, Abdul-Azisi was 11th best (and that's a big stretch) of the 16 (bottom 30%) centers Kareem played against during his best season, while a stiff like Greg Ostertag was in the top 20% of the centers Shaq played against in his prime.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I made no such case. Shaq played against Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Dougherty, Smits, Divac, Seikally, Parrish.

Other than Robinson, Morning and Mutombo, all those guys were retired by the time Shaq entered his prime - and Robinson and Mourning were almost there.

You make the case Ostertag is top 5 among that group, then argue against it. Familiar!

You were the one that listed Ostertag as one of Shaq's toughest opponents during his prime.

Shaq also played against guys like Duckworth, and freaks like Shawn Bradley and Manute Bol.

Not sure what was freaky about Duckworth, he as a spot up shooting big man. Yeah Bradley and Bol were taller than Shaq, but he also outweighed them by about 100 pounds. They were novelty acts, not future Hall of Famers.

You scoffed at Mutombo, who was DPOY 4 times, 8x all star, and a career PER over 17. What strawman next?

I never scoffed at Mutombo. Along with late career Robinson and Mourning, he was the 3rd center form your list that has a shot at making the Hall of Fame. LaFrentz, Ostertag, Campbell - no way. Vlade, maybe but it will be due to his international career as much as his NBA career.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

I see. So 35 year old Wilt suits you fine, but DRob, who played TEN seasons against Shaq doesn't.

You win if we play by those rules.

EDIT: even better if YOU get to define Shaq's "prime" - I figure his prime was over in 2002-03, the year DRob in reality retired. The irony is Shaq had his best seasons during the Admiral's prime. Hakeem won an MVP and was all nba team for 8 years of Shaq's prime.

EDIT 2: Divac was 23 when Shaq was a rookie. He must have retired at a really young age!

EDIT 3: Ewing scored 20+ for 6 straight seasons during Shaq's prime.

 

[blazerboy30]

I see. So 35 year old Wilt suits you fine, but DRob, who played TEN seasons against Shaq doesn't.

You win if we play by those rules.

EDIT: even better if YOU get to define Shaq's "prime" - I figure his prime was over in 2002-03, the year DRob in reality retired. The irony is Shaq had his best seasons during the Admiral's prime. Hakeem won an MVP and was all nba team for 8 years of Shaq's prime.

EDIT 2: Divac was 23 when Shaq was a rookie. He must have retired at a really young age!

EDIT 3: Ewing scored 20+ for 6 straight seasons during Shaq's prime.

Sabonis wasn't a slouch during Shaq's prime either.

 

[Denny Crane]

Sabonis wasn't a slouch during Shaq's prime either.

He's in the hall of fame, too.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

You were the one that listed Ostertag as one of Shaq's toughest opponents during his prime.

Not sure what was freaky about Duckworth, he as a spot up shooting big man. Yeah Bradley and Bol were taller than Shaq, but he also outweighed them by about 100 pounds. They were novelty acts, not future Hall of Famers.

You get upset at people for using strawman arguments, yet you keep trying to change little things about what they said.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Umm... no. For some reason, people don't seem to realize how dominant Kareem was in his prime. He averaged over 30 ppg 4 times (something Shaq never did). He is the all time leader in total win shares (273.4), by a large margin. Shaq's career win shares = 181.7. Kareem led the league in total win shares 9 times. Shaq did it twice. Kareem averaged over 16 rpg 4 times. Shaq's career best was 13.9 rpg (his rookie year). Kareem had a 7 year stretch where he averaged over 3.0 bpg (it would have been 11 straight years, but they didn't start keeping blocks until his 5th season). Shaq only averaged > 3.0 bpg once (again, his rookie year). Kareem averaged over 4.0 apg 8 times. Shaq's career best was 3.4 apg.

So, Kareem was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer and better defender. What, exactly was Shaq better at????

BNM

Marketing?

 

[Boob-No-More]

You get upset at people for using strawman arguments, yet you keep trying to change little things about what they said.

Why do you assume I'm upset? I'm not. It's entirely possible to disagree without being upset.

Denny and I disagree in our opinions on Shaq's level of greatness. No biggie.

BNM

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Why do you assume I'm upset? I'm not. It's entirely possible to disagree without being upset.

Denny and I disagree in our opinions on Shaq's level of greatness. No biggie.

BNM

You seem to be having trouble understand what people are saying today.

I did not, in any way, say you are upset right now.

 

[Boob-No-More]

You seem to be having trouble understand what people are saying today.

I did not, in any way, say you are upset right now.

The only person I give a hard time about strawman arguments is PapaG. And, I'm not upset when I do so, it's more like a running joke.

BNM

 

[RoyToy]

Kobe offers his 5

“It’s not very difficult for me. I’d go Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell and Jabbar."

And I agree 100% with Kobe with his 5 and the fact it's not difficult. Those are THE 5.

 

[PapaG]

You were the one that listed Ostertag as one of Shaq's toughest opponents during his prime.

BNM

Nobody listed Ostertag as one of Shaq's toughest opponents. They listed him as a center with size.

Strawman

The only person I give a hard time about strawman arguments is PapaG. And, I'm not upset when I do so, it's more like a running joke.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

Shaq was far better than the Wilt I remember.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/players/p/putnawi01n.html

 

[PapaG]

Top ABA/NBA Players in PER, all-time.

Face it folks. LeBron James is one of the greatest players ever.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

For those who dismiss PER as a measure of greatness, notice this, and then notice the players who don't have the asterisk.

Members of the Hall of Fame are marked with an asterisk (*).

Also note that LMA has the 75th best PER of all-time, with ZBO at 76.

 

[jlprk]

You compare players who are in their peaks, to former players whose PER averages include downside years.

 

[jlprk]

I just did a calculation, that I'm too tired to post in understandable form. I figured the average number of teams (and thus centers) against whom Wilt played during his peak 1959-68, and the same for Shaq 1992-2006. I divided the number of good centers during those years by the number of teams played against. The result is that they each played against the same quality of centers. Maybe I'll come back after a rest with details.

 

[huevonkiller]

LeBron is a better post-season player than Jordan statistically, and has better prime seasons than Jordan.

2009 buddy.

 

[Denny Crane]

I just did a calculation, that I'm too tired to post in understandable form. I figured the average number of teams (and thus centers) against whom Wilt played during his peak 1959-68, and the same for Shaq 1992-2006. I divided the number of good centers during those years by the number of teams played against. The result is that they each played against the same quality of centers. Maybe I'll come back after a rest with details.

I get what you mean. Kareem played 2/3 of his games against guys like Abdul-Aziz.