TPEs (Traded Player Exceptions)

[hoopsjock]

Insane price we paid???? Two future 2nd round picks is insane?

Here's an example of an insane price to pay for a 2nd round pick. I'll use your Darrell Arthur example, because he makes $5.5 million less than Faried.

Here's what it would have cost POR to use the TPE on Arthur to get an additional 2nd round pick from DEN...

Based on the luxury tax table at cbafaq.com:

View attachment 21717

Using the non-repeater column for 2018-19...

After Nurk's extension, POR's guaranteed payroll for 2018-19 is at $131,638,624, that's $7,905,624 over the luxury tax threshold of $123,733,000. Add in Arthur's 2018-19 salary of $7,464,912, and that puts POR $15,370,536 over the luxury tax threshold.

Using the table above, POR's tax penalty with Arthur would be $29,676,342.50. The tax penalty without Arthur would be $12,584,843.75, a difference of $17,091,498.75 in additional tax penalty. Add in Arthur's salary of $7,464,912 and the total cost of adding that one additional 2nd round pick would have been $24,556,410.75. Do you really think a future 2nd round pick is worth over $24.5 million cash money? Because, that's what you proposed. There are MUCH cheaper ways to get a future 2nd round pick.

I used Arthur, because he was, by far, the cheaper of the two options. The cost of adding Faried to obtain an additional 2nd round pick would have been over $35 million. That would be somewhat mitigated by the fact that Faried may have actually cracked our rotation.

BNM

BNM, I understand the cap. In the Arthur example we wouldn't have Stauskas nor paid cash in the Trent trade so that offsets a little bit of the money. As @PtldPlatypus points out, we also have until the trade deadline to alleviate more money from that equation. That 2021 Miami pick is in a draft that is expected to have the first year of the one and done rule being eliminated, that draft could be crazy good.

 

[Boob-No-More]

BNM, I understand the cap. In the Arthur example we wouldn't have Stauskas nor paid cash in the Trent trade so that offsets a little bit of the money. As @PtldPlatypus points out, we also have until the trade deadline to alleviate more money from that equation. That 2021 Miami pick is in a draft that is expected to have the first year of the one and done rule being eliminated, that draft could be crazy good.

You didn't answer the question. Do you not think there are cheaper ways to acquire a future 2nd round pick?

Stauskas is a min contract. Having him, or not having him, doesn't save much money.

Yes, we have until the trade deadline to give away assets to save money. Just remember, we are required to carry 14 players on the roster. Giving away an end of the bench 15th man won't save much money.

If the 2020-21 draft is going to be so deep go out and buy a pick. It will cost a lot less than $24.5 million.

Overpaying for mediocre assets (Crabbe, Turner, Meyers) is what got us here. Continuing to do so isn't the way to dig ourselves out of this hole. Even in the deepest draft, any 2nd round pick is a total crap shoot. Paying $24.5 cash for a future 2nd round pick is the definition of overpaying for a marginal asset.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

You didn't answer the question. Do you not think there are cheaper ways to acquire a future 2nd round pick?

Stauskas is a min contract. Having him, or not having him, doesn't save much money.

Yes, we have until the trade deadline to give away assets to save money. Just remember, we are required to carry 14 players on the roster. Giving away an end of the bench 15th man won't save much money.

If the 2020-21 draft is going to be so deep go out and buy a pick. It will cost a lot less than $24.5 million.

Overpaying for mediocre assets (Crabbe, Turner, Meyers) is what got us here. Continuing to do so isn't the way to dig ourselves out of this hole. Even in the deepest draft, any 2nd round pick is a total crap shoot. Paying $24.5 cash for a future 2nd round pick is the definition of overpaying for a marginal asset.

BNM

First of all, when you keep mentioning a certain amount a min contract is significant because you are counting it along with that multiplier. So it wouldn't still be that much.

Second of all, I have multiple posts explaining how having another expiring contract could be useful in getting a guy who WOULD be worth paying the tax for.

Third of all, the 2nd round pick is just a small part of the equation. I am in no way endorsing making no other moves and keeping the roster the same after using the TPE but having a backup like Arthur does help our frontcourt depth issue.

 

[Boob-No-More]

First of all, when you keep mentioning a certain amount a min contract is significant because you are counting it along with that multiplier. So it wouldn't still be that much.

Second of all, I have multiple posts explaining how having another expiring contract could be useful in getting a guy who WOULD be worth paying the tax for.

Third of all, the 2nd round pick is just a small part of the equation. I am in no way endorsing making no other moves and keeping the roster the same after using the TPE but having a backup like Arthur does help our frontcourt depth issue.

Typical selling price for a high 2nd round draft pick = $3.5 million. There was no reasonable way of using the TPE to take on a bad contract to get a pick that wouldn't have cost many times that amount.

I'm not against accumulating future assets. I just don't want to overpay for them. I specifically replied to your comment about using the TPE on Arthur or Faried to acquire an additional 2nd round pick. I still believe there are much cheaper ways to acquire such a pick.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

That's always easier to say when it's not your money. None of the moves you've suggested would put the Blazers anywhere close to competing with the Warriors. Spending that kind of money for most likely the same result as doing nothing is pretty tough to justify to the boss.

I'm in no way saying those moves make us a contender with the Warriors. What it does do is make it more realistic to get a trade in the future that would help with that. Instead we don't have much to work with this summer now that the TPE expired.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm in no way saying those moves make us a contender with the Warriors. What it does do is make it more realistic to get a trade in the future that would help with that. Instead we don't have much to work with this summer now that the TPE expired.

We still have the Vonleh TPE. We also have C.J., and several very young, talented players on cheap rookie contracts (Collins, Simons, Trent Jr.) and own all of our future first round picks. Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE.

BNM

 

[illmatic99]

Olshey tried to move the TPE and draft picks …..didn't get the offers he wanted for them. He went out and signed 3 pt shooters for the bench...tried to get Boogie....made a pitch to Kawhi….just didn't pan out...any other move he could have made was a lateral move and he figured our young guys once again could build some value and upgrade in areas....if he didn't get the guy you want....it is what it is...they passed on Beasley early....Faried is not an upgrade in my view...never liked the guy's game...I'd play Swanigan over him anytime...he only does what Swanigan doesn't which is dunk.

A for effort!

Wish my profs graded me this way. I studied my ass off in college and still got some shitty ass grades.

Or my performance evaluations at work. Woulda had a lot more bonuses come my way had I been evaluated for things I tried to do but still couldn't actually get done.

 

[illmatic99]

We still have the Vonleh TPE. We also have C.J., and several very young, talented players on cheap rookie contracts (Collins, Simons, Trent Jr.) and own all of our future first round picks. Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE.

BNM

 

[Propagandist]

Olshey tried to move the TPE and draft picks …..didn't get the offers he wanted for them. He went out and signed 3 pt shooters for the bench...tried to get Boogie....made a pitch to Kawhi….just didn't pan out...any other move he could have made was a lateral move and he figured our young guys once again could build some value and upgrade in areas....if he didn't get the guy you want....it is what it is...they passed on Beasley early....Faried is not an upgrade in my view...never liked the guy's game...I'd play Swanigan over him anytime...he only does what Swanigan doesn't which is dunk.

Man, I don't understand your optimism when it comes to Swanigan.

 

[hoopsjock]

We still have the Vonleh TPE. We also have C.J., and several very young, talented players on cheap rookie contracts (Collins, Simons, Trent Jr.) and own all of our future first round picks. Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE.

BNM

I specifically said last night that I was talking in terms of making the team better with Dame and CJ on it. Otherwise keeping Cj makes no sense if they aren't willing to try to make this roster better.

Attaching those picks and young guys to expiring contracts like Aminu and whoever we got from the TPE (Lin, Faried, Arthur, Etc.) has way more value than attching guys like Turner or Leonard to make salaries work. In my mind that is the difference between landing a guy like Blake Griffin or last year with Mirotic or insert whatever name becomes available this year.

 

[riverman]

Man, I don't understand your optimism when it comes to Swanigan.

it is what it is....at his age, I like the guy...he just needs to play some regular season games and get some experience against veteran bigs...that's always a learning curve….I do think he'll give us Big Ed's rebounds when he's subbed in....Faried is a one trick pony vet....sorry..I don't get the love for him at all...he couldn't make the Nuggets better...he wouldn't make Portland better either

 

[Boob-No-More]

I specifically said last night that I was talking in terms of making the team better with Dame and CJ on it. Otherwise keeping Cj makes no sense if they aren't willing to try to make this roster better.

Attaching those picks and young guys to expiring contracts like Aminu and whoever we got from the TPE (Lin, Faried, Arthur, Etc.) has way more value than attching guys like Turner or Leonard to make salaries work. In my mind that is the difference between landing a guy like Blake Griffin or last year with Mirotic or insert whatever name becomes available this year.

You are assigning way too much value to guys like Faried, Arthur and Lin. They actually have negative trade value. DEN had to give BRK a 1st round pick to take Fareid and Arthur off their books. BRK sent Lin to ATL for a guy who will probably never play in the NBA and gave ATL the right to swap future 2nd round picks.

The last thing this team needs it more players with negative trade value. We have plenty of those. That's not accumulating assets, that's accumulating deficits.

BNM

 

[riverman]

Man, I don't understand your optimism when it comes to Swanigan.

I really don't understand pessimism heading into a new season with so many unknown factors ..haven't even had a training camp yet. I never go into a season with doubt and negative affirmations about what nobody knows....how the roster will click. It's all guess work until we've seen the roster play

 

[Boob-No-More]

So, you actually believe that anything we could have gotten with the Crabbe TPE has more trade value than all of C.J./ Collins, Simons, Trent Jr. and all of our future 1st round picks?

Because here's what you responded to:

"Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE."

Feel free to disagree all you want, but don't act like I'm the one who's the fool.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

You are assigning way too much value to guys like Faried, Arthur and Lin. They actually have negative trade value. DEN had to give BRK a 1st round pick to take Fareid and Arthur off their books. BRK sent Lin to ATL for a guy who will probably never play in the NBA and gave ATL the right to swap future 2nd round picks.

The last thing this team needs it more players with negative trade value. We have plenty of those. That's not accumulating assets, that's accumulating deficits.

BNM

Are you saying trading Aminu and Lin and a 1st has the same value as trading Turner and a 1st this year? It's not even close.

 

[hoopsjock]

You are assigning way too much value to guys like Faried, Arthur and Lin. They actually have negative trade value. DEN had to give BRK a 1st round pick to take Fareid and Arthur off their books. BRK sent Lin to ATL for a guy who will probably never play in the NBA and gave ATL the right to swap future 2nd round picks.

The last thing this team needs it more players with negative trade value. We have plenty of those. That's not accumulating assets, that's accumulating deficits.

BNM

They had to give up a 1st because they took on $20 million in salary for nothing. Our situation would be a normal trade, not a salary dump.

 

[Propagandist]

I really don't understand pessimism heading into a new season with so many unknown factors ..haven't even had a training camp yet. I never go into a season with doubt and negative affirmations about what nobody knows....how the roster will click. It's all guess work until there's games to watch

Well geez...I was just talking about your optimism in regards to Swanigan, so I'll stick with that. It is my observation that Swanigan is too slow--too slow to guard PFs and practically too slow to guard Cs, his help D is okay but he isn't athletic, can't get his own shot, doesn't seem to make the best decisions, etc. Good things? He seems to pass okay and rebound well. But I find it simultaneous depressing, surprising, and terrifying that he might actually play significant minutes ever, let alone next season.

So again, is observation/opinion pessimism? It might lead to it, maybe. My point is that I don't think Swanigan fits in the NBA and you do and that surprises me.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Are you saying trading Aminu and Lin and a 1st has the same value as trading Turner and a 1st this year? It's not even close.

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is overpaying for "assets" with negative trade value isn't going to land us a superstar in return.

BNM

 

[Propagandist]

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is overpaying for "assets" with negative trade value isn't going to land us a superstar in return.

BNM

You know what I bet will land us a superstar? Just doing nothing.

 

[Boob-No-More]

They had to give up a 1st because they took on $20 million in salary for nothing. Our situation would be a normal trade, not a salary dump.

Then why didn't DEN move Faried and/or Arthur in a "normal" trade that would have brought back something of positive value in return?

Because they couldn't. You don't think they tried?

They have been shopping Faried for a couple years with no takers. In the end, they had to pay someone a 1st round pick to take him. That is the definition of negative trade value. We already have plenty of those guys, We don't need any more, especially if it costs us over $35 million in salary and luxury tax.

BNM

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is overpaying for "assets" with negative trade value isn't going to land us a superstar in return.

BNM

Once the trade deadline approaches, expiring deals like Lin and Faried no longer necessarily have negative trade value.

 

[hoopsjock]

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is overpaying for "assets" with negative trade value isn't going to land us a superstar in return.

BNM

The way I look at it, we are screwed the next two years anyway. Adding a 2nd rounder and expiring contract is better than doing nothing.

 

[illmatic99]

So, you actually believe that anything we could have gotten with the Crabbe TPE has more trade value than all of C.J./ Collins, Simons, Trent Jr. and all of our future 1st round picks?

Because here's what you responded to:

"Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE."

Feel free to disagree all you want, but don't act like I'm the one who's the fool.

BNM

No I was responding to you bringing up the Vonleh TPE when @hoopsjock mentioned that we have nothing more to work with.

You really think we will use the Vonleh TPE?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Once the trade deadline approaches, expiring deals like Lin and Faried no longer necessarily have negative trade value.

I realize that, but you have to also realize, given the Blazers tax situation, we would be desperate to move them, which diminishes their trade value. Everyone in the league knowing that moving a guy like Faried would save the Blazers ~$30 million wouldn't exactly have the Blazers negotiating from a position of strength.

Chances are we'd end up just like DEN, paying someone a 1st round pick to take that albatross contract off our books. I'm all for accumulating assets. Giving away 1st round picks to move bad contracts is not how it's done. If it was possible to get something of value for Faried at the deadline, why didn't DEN just keep him and hold onto their 1st round pick?

BNM

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I realize that, but you have to also realize, given the Blazers tax situation, we would be desperate to move them, which diminishes their trade value. Everyone in the league knowing that moving a guy like Faried would save the Blazers ~$30 million wouldn't exactly have the Blazers negotiating from a position of strength.

Chances are we'd end up just like DEN, paying someone a 1st round pick to take that albatross contract off our books. I'm all for accumulating assets. Giving away 1st round picks to move bad contracts is not how it's done. If it was possible to get something of value for Faried at the deadline, why didn't DEN just keep him and hold onto their 1st round pick?

BNM

Can't speak for Denver. Don't know their owner's financial situation.

If the Blazers were trading Faried at the deadline, it wouldn't be attaching assets to him to reduce the payroll, and it wouldn't be with him as the primary asset sought by the other team; it only be with him as ballast to match salary for a player that could actually improve the team. Essentially, as @hoopsjock said, extending the life of the TPE to a potentially usable timeframe, though with the underlying risk of possibly not being able to find a deal and having to pay the exorbitant tax bill.

Basically, I see it as Neil/Paul being unwilling to assume that risk for the chance of being able to improve the team, which to me feels like a commentary on Neil.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The way I look at it, we are screwed the next two years anyway. Adding a 2nd rounder and expiring contract is better than doing nothing.

And, again, I'm back to there are cheaper ways to accomplish that. GSW bought the 38th pick in the 2017 draft (Jordan Bell) for $3.5 million cash. If we want a pick next summer, or the summer after that, why can't we do the same? It's a lot cheaper than using the TPE to take back a bad contract.

Didn't RLEC teach us anything. How many times to we need to have the biggest expiring contract, or the biggest TPE, before people start to understand how overrated those "assets" are.

And you can't just blame Olshey for that. He has nothing to do with RLEC. It's just a fact of life that fans put way more value on those things than opposing GMs do.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Can't speak for Denver. Don't know their owner's financial situation. If the Blazers were trading Faried at the deadline, it wouldn't be to reduce the payroll, but as ballast to match salary for a player that would actually improve the team. Essentially, as @hoopsjock said, extending the life of the TPE to a potentially usable timeframe, though with the underlying risk of possibly not being able to find a deal and having to pay the exorbitant tax bill.

Basically, I see it as Neil/Paul being unwilling to assume that risk for the chance of being able to improve the team, which to me feels like a commentary on Neil.

Probably trying to avoid another RLEC situation - only worse. RLEC didn't have $30 million in consequences if he wasn't traded. Letting RLEC expire cost the team nothing.

So, it came down to, we can either just let the TPE expire, or in a few months find ourselves in desperate need to move the $13 million contact of yet another overpaid player.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

No I was responding to you bringing up the Vonleh TPE when @hoopsjock mentioned that we have nothing more to work with.

You really think we will use the Vonleh TPE?

I have no idea, but apparently, TPEs are HUGE positive assets. Surely, it's worth something. We currently have 5 threads on the front page about the Crabbe TPE. all bemoaning how we failed to use such a valuable asset.

What I actually said was, "Other than the Vonleh TPE, I think all of those assets are more valuable than anything we could have landed with the Crabbe TPE."

I guess you missed that bolded part.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

You know what I bet will land us a superstar? Just doing nothing.

Or, complaining about doing nothing. That always works.

If only. If that was all it took, the Blazers would have the greatest super team in the history of the league. 82-0 baby!!!

BNM

 

[Propagandist]

Or, complaining about doing nothing. That always works.

If only. If that was all it took, the Blazers would have the greatest super team in the history of the league. 82-0 baby!!!

BNM

Stick to the Neil Olshey shtick.