Trade Lillard now

[riverman]

A 7 ft version of kyle korver. That is incredibly offensive to Dirks legacy. I am at a loss of words.

you are more than welcome to praise Dirk.....use your words...you've met somebody who's not a gushing fan of his...no big deal...I own the opinion but I don't need to sell it to anyone...Kyle Korver was also an incredible shooter who was not a great defender.......my first comparison was Reggie Miller who also was just a sniper...don't get me wrong....I like sharp shooters...Michael Redd comes to mind as well.....but more often than not those guys aren't doing much but shooting. Dame dishes out double digit dimes often and has many, many 30 40 50 pt games. I don't really give a fuck about Dirk's legacy either.....was never ever a Mavs fan.

 

[andalusian]

We disagree about his defense quite a bit....he hardly tried......his team was better defensively than Dame's Blazers but Melo and Kanter played better defense than Dirk....my opinion...not dirt...just observations....I know he's a basketball darling but I thought he was a 7 ft version of Kyle Korver. There are a handful of superstars in history that I think are overrated and he's one on my list. Nothing wrong with being an elite scorer but that's where his legacy falls in my view.

Your opinion, quite frankly, is just not reflected in the cold, hard, statistical data we have - and as much as I like EFK - his DBPM for his career is worse than Dame's and his DWS seems to match Dame (on a per-game value) or worse than Dame (on a per-minute played value) - so claiming he is a better defender than Dirk was, is not one I can take seriously.

 

[wizenheimer]

Sure, but this is just an easy stat to view, DWS - on a per game - Dirk is 4 times higher than Dame (took total for career, divided by number of games played). Can't find easy access totals for DRPM - but from what I have tried to see at ESPN going year by year, Dame had only 1 year of a positive DRPM, I only checked 4 years for Dirk, he had a positive DRPM in 3 of them, his highest was more than twice larger than Dame's best defensive year by DRPM.

Again, Dirk was not a great defender, But Dame is worse by any reasonable measure.

ok...and that's all probably accurate

but Dirk was 7' guy defending PF's and occasional C's. He wasn't defending guys who could dribble-drive every single game like a PG does. He wasn't defending the ball-handlers on PnR's like Dame does, and guards do, he was generally hedging back into the paint and defending the roll man with an occasional blitz thrown in. Dame has to guard PG's who have the ball in their hands most of the time and who are some of the best ball-handlers in the world; and he's being picked and screened by guys much bigger than he is. Defending the likes of Carlos Boozer, Antwain Jamison, and David West isn't the same as defending Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Westbrook and Trae Young

 

[blazerkor]

I think we can all agree on one thing. This is a fucking ridiculously pointless thread at this point (at this point means "now" which is in the thread title). Right now Dame is injured and having the worst year maybe of his entire career when taking into consideration scoring efficiency but definitely his worst in a long time. So trading Dame now would be about as dumb of a thing as you could do. Why would we sell low on inarguably our best player in the last 25+ years? It would be the worst possible decision right now. It would be worse than just standing pat (although that is the second worst decision the team could make).

So please start concentrating all of your considerable (this isn't sarcastic) knowledge and resources on what we can do to make this team better after Dame comes back from injury which let's all hope is at the beginning of the 2022-23 season.

 

[riverman]

Your opinion, quite frankly, is just not reflected in the cold, hard, statistical data we have - and as much as I like EFK - his DBPM for his career is worse than Dame's and his DWS seems to match Dame (on a per-game value) or worse than Dame (on a per-minute played value) - so claiming he is a better defender than Dirk was, is not one I can take seriously.

I don't believe in that cold hard statistical data......stats are affected by the team a guy is on the court with and the opposition he faces...you don't need to take my view on Dirk seriously...nobody needs to agree with my take at all...I've said that about 3 times now but rather than take issue with my opinion....why not just praise the guy and agree to disagree.....I heckled Dirk his whole career as a spectator. Same with MJ....people freak out when I criticize MJ too....it's how I've seen the game over my decades as a fan. Everyone is welcome to their own Mt Rushmore of superstars...Dirk's not on mine. Believe me, I know how unpopular that opinion is....he's a darling of the basketball world to most fans. I also didn't claim Dame was a better defender than Dirk but that he tried harder and had more to his game than just a shot...Dame is 6'2 in shoes....Dirk is a 7 ft player who hung out at the 3 pt line more than the paint..Dame probably bangs in the post more than Dirk ever did. Dirk also didn't play most of his career with a small ball roster.In a lineup I take Dame over Dirk everytime if I'm choosing a team

 

[andalusian]

ok...and that's all probably accurate

but Dirk was 7' guy defending PF's and occasional C's. He wasn't defending guys who could dribble-drive every single game like a PG does. He wasn't defending the ball-handlers on PnR's like Dame does, and guards do, he was generally hedging back into the paint and defending the roll man with an occasional blitz thrown in. Dame has to guard PG's who have the ball in their hands most of the time and who are some of the best ball-handlers in the world; and he's being picked and screened by guys much bigger than he is. Defending the likes of Carlos Boozer, Antwain Jamison, and David West isn't the same as defending Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Westbrook and Trae Young

I think this is a very bad take because people tend to think of bigs as defensive anchors and thus when you have one that is merely average - people tend to pan them more than they deserve - and Dirk's rookie year and his own self deprecating remarks about his defense probably helped this - but the question is not should you compare him to KG or Duncan, but do you compare him to an average big man defender - and as such, he is just capable. He was not a good rim protector - but he was a pretty good help / team defender - and during his first 10 years when his lateral movement was good - he would have probably been even better if he played as a SF which is what his original role was going to be - but he was moved to play PF and at time C in an era where mobile long people were forced to play there - meaning he would have likely been a better defender if he played in the modern NBA.

It is not just me and the data that have said, we have actual reactions from people over the years that have said that.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

You do not lead a team to 11 consecutive 50+ wins playing 36+ MPG by being a shit defender. Sure, some years shit defenders might have better guys around them to cover for them (and we have seen it with the Blazers) - and they win that much, but no team has that many years of covering for shit defenders unless you have an all time great next to you during this time. The Mavs did not have that.

 

[andalusian]

I don't believe in that cold hard statistical data......stats are affected by the team a guy is on the court with and the opposition he faces...you don't need to take my view on Dirk seriously...nobody needs to agree with my take at all...I've said that about 3 times now but rather than take issue with my opinion....why not just praise the guy and agree to disagree.....I heckled Dirk his whole career as a spectator. Same with MJ....people freak out when I criticize MJ too....it's how I've seen the game over my decades as a fan. Everyone is welcome to their own Mt Rushmore of superstars...Dirk's not on mine. Believe me, I know how unpopular that opinion is....he's a darling of the basketball world to most fans. I also didn't claim Dame was a better defender than Dirk but that he tried harder and had more to his game than just a shot...Dame is 6'2 in shoes....Dirk is a 7 ft player who hung out at the 3 pt line more than the paint..Dame probably bangs in the post more than Dirk ever did. Dirk also didn't play most of his career with a small ball roster.In a lineup I take Dame over Dirk everytime if I'm choosing a team

Who said anything about Mt. Rushmore. Dirk was an acceptable to plus defender most of his career (take out rookie year and last years when age got away from him). Dame has been a minus defender for most of his career - and the 7' thing is nothing that matters. The fact is that both Dame and Dirk are/were elite offensive players and both were clutch. I also think that at his peak, Dame is a bigger threat that Dirk was at his peak, the place where the 7' thing came to Dirk's advantage is that it was harder to slow him with defense since he could shoot over most - something that Dame can not - thus I believe Dame might be a better offensive player than Dirk when all is said and done, but Dirk was a better defensive player than Dame - and athletically, Dame is a much better athlete than Dirk ever was - so calling him worse than EFK or Dame is just wrong. All the things where Dirk used his length to his defensive advantage - Dame should use defensively for his lateral quickness.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think this is a very bad take because people tend to think of bigs as defensive anchors and thus when you have one that is merely average - people tend to pan them more than they deserve - and Dirk's rookie year and his own self deprecating remarks about his defense probably helped this - but the question is not should you compare him to KG or Duncan, but do you compare him to an average big man defender - and as such, he is just capable. He was not a good rim protector - but he was a pretty good help / team defender - and during his first 10 years when his lateral movement was good - he would have probably been even better if he played as a SF which is what his original role was going to be - but he was moved to play PF and at time C in an era where mobile long people were forced to play there - meaning he would have likely been a better defender if he played in the modern NBA.

It is not just me and the data that have said, we have actual reactions from people over the years that have said that.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

You do not lead a team to 11 consecutive 50+ wins playing 36+ MPG by being a shit defender. Sure, some years shit defenders might have better guys around them to cover for them (and we have seen it with the Blazers) - and they win that much, but no team has that many years of covering for shit defenders unless you have an all time great next to you during this time. The Mavs did not have that.

you are misinterpreting what I'm saying . I wasn't really arguing that Dame was a good defender or that Dirk was better or anything much in the Dame vs Dirk debate

rather, I was pointing out why a stat like DBPM favors big men and front court players to the disadvantage of guards and perimeter players. Their defensive responsibilities are different. And yes, I am saying that defending PG's today is harder than defending PF's 15 years ago

 

[andalusian]

you are misinterpreting what I'm saying . I wasn't really arguing that Dame was a good defender or that Dirk was better or anything much in the Dame vs Dirk debate

rather, I was pointing out why a stat like DBPM favors big men and front court players to the disadvantage of guards and perimeter players. Their defensive responsibilities are different. And yes, I am saying that defending PG's today is harder than defending PF's 15 years ago

I provided alternate measures that show Dirk was an acceptable defender for his time.

I also do not buy your 2nd argument, I believe that defending traditional PFs and Cs with Dirk's build at the time he played was as hard as it is for a super athletic guard (Dame) today to guard other super athletic guards. I also think that you put a young, more mobile Dirk in today's NBA and he would look much better defensively - since he will have to guard people his size or smaller further away from the basket than go against people bigger and stronger than him as a rim protector as he had to do any day when he played.

At the end of the day, you can only judge players for the era they played in - and Dirk was not as bad a defender as some paint him (which certainly does not make him a defensive force).

 

[riverman]

Who said anything about Mt. Rushmore. Dirk was an acceptable to plus defender most of his career (take out rookie year and last years when age got away from him). Dame has been a minus defender for most of his career - and the 7' thing is nothing that matters. The fact is that both Dame and Dirk are/were elite offensive players and both were clutch. I also think that at his peak, Dame is a bigger threat that Dirk was at his peak, the place where the 7' thing came to Dirk's advantage is that it was harder to slow him with defense since he could shoot over most - something that Dame can not - thus I believe Dame might be a better offensive player than Dirk when all is said and done, but Dirk was a better defensive player than Dame - and athletically, Dame is a much better athlete than Dirk ever was - so calling him worse than EFK or Dame is just wrong. All the things where Dirk used his length to his defensive advantage - Dame should use defensively for his lateral quickness.

I'm the guy who said something about Mt Rushmore....In the words of Terry Stotts who coached Dirk for years....."I've coached some great players but I've never coached someone as remarkable as Dame".......high praise from a coach who got a ring with Dirk.

 

[wizenheimer]

I provided alternate measures that show Dirk was an acceptable defender for his time.

I also do not buy your 2nd argument, I believe that defending traditional PFs and Cs with Dirk's build at the time he played was as hard as it is for a super athletic guard (Dame) today to guard other super athletic guards. I also think that you put a young, more mobile Dirk in today's NBA and he would look much better defensively - since he will have to guard people his size or smaller further away from the basket than go against people bigger and stronger than him as a rim protector as he had to do any day when he played.

again...forget about the Dame vs Dirk stuff. I don't know how it got started and don't care

we'll have to agree to disagree about which position was/is harder to defend and about DBPM. I mean, based upon DBPM, Meyers Leonard was essentially as good a defender as Jrue Holiday

 

[andalusian]

I'm the guy who said something about Mt Rushmore....In the words of Terry Stotts who coached Dirk for years....."I've coached some great players but I've never coached someone as remarkable as Dame".......high praise from a coach who got a ring with Dirk.

You said "Everyone is welcome to their own Mt Rushmore of superstars...Dirk's not on mine" - I pointed out that I did not, just took umbrage of the way he was labeled defensively.

 

[riverman]

You said "Everyone is welcome to their own Mt Rushmore of superstars...Dirk's not on mine" - I pointed out that I did not, just took umbrage of the way he was labeled defensively.

no problem...you guys are welcome to see Dirk through any lens you like to look through....mine opinion of him has been the same for ages. I own it. If you were choosing sides for an allstar game would you pick a 30 year old Dirk over a 30 year old Dame? I wouldn't.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

no problem...you guys are welcome to see Dirk through any lens you like to look through....mine opinion of him has been the same for ages. I own it. If you were choosing sides for an allstar game would you pick a 30 year old Dirk over a 30 year old Dame? I wouldn't.

Yes.

 

[andalusian]

no problem...you guys are welcome to see Dirk through any lens you like to look through....mine opinion of him has been the same for ages. I own it. If you were choosing sides for an allstar game would you pick a 30 year old Dirk over a 30 year old Dame? I wouldn't.

You mean, would I choose a guy that was selected 1st team all NBA that year and his team won at a 0.60 rate, losing in the 2nd round of the playoffs or the guy that was selected 2nd team all NBA that year, his team won at 0.57 rate and it lost in the 1st round of the playoffs? Probably the first guy, especially since he was 2 years away from his MVP season.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

You mean, would I choose a guy that was selected 1st team all NBA that year and his team won at a 0.60 rate, losing in the 2nd round of the playoffs or the guy that was selected 2nd team all NBA that year, his team won at 0.57 rate and it lost in the 1st round of the playoffs? Probably the first guy, especially since he was 2 years away from his MVP season.

Insert Dirk had all the help in the world and Dame didn't argument.

We love Dame. He just is not Dirk. The gap between them isn't outrageous. But, there is some gap between them in all time hierarchy.

 

[riverman]

You mean, would I choose a guy that was selected 1st team all NBA that year and his team won at a 0.60 rate, losing in the 2nd round of the playoffs or the guy that was selected 2nd team all NBA that year, his team won at 0.57 rate and it lost in the 1st round of the playoffs? Probably the first guy, especially since he was 2 years away from his MVP season.

cool...not me...Dame gets the nod from me....now the Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Michael Finley , Jason Terry lineup I'd have to give some credit to for those accomplisments as well but Dame....he's my choice everytime against your guy

 

[SlyPokerCat]

cool...not me...Dame gets the nod from me....now the Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Michael Finley , Jason Terry lineup I'd have to give some credit to for those accomplisments as well but Dame....he's my choice everytime against your guy

Would you pick Dame over Michael Jordan too?

 

[riverman]

Insert Dirk had all the help in the world and Dame didn't argument.

We love Dame. He just is not Dirk. The gap between them isn't outrageous. But, there is some gap between them in all time hierarchy.

not everything has to be defined as an argument......it's a difference of opinion...there is no argument in this topic, just a difference in choices....you can list a million reasons for making those but if you form your opinion and voice it, it doesn't mean it's a topic of controversy unless people want to dissect it or scoff at it...it's much simpler to me.....I'm more interested in your opinion about a topic than what caused you to form it and you're more than welcome to have one different from me....I won't argue that point at all but for me Dame>Dirk without blinking..but I won't throw a bunch of condescending adjectives at your preference....I'll respect it. Drazen Petrovic over Dirk as well even though Drazen didn't get the trophies and had a shortened career....his game was as good as I've seen in the league....he was my favorite Euro player in the NBA ever.

 

[andalusian]

cool...not me...Dame gets the nod from me....now the Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Michael Finley , Jason Terry lineup I'd have to give some credit to for those accomplisments as well but Dame....he's my choice everytime against your guy

Since when is Dirk "my guy"?

If anyone here is tilting the windmills based on "his guy" it's not me. I was never a Dallas fan - nor a Dirk devotee. But he was an exceptional NBA player (as is Dame) - and overall, I think Dirk was, so far in their career given that Dame is not retired yet, a better player overall than Dame - but it is not a huge difference. He certainly achieved more in his first 10 years in the league than Dame did, both with his team and individually (MVP award).

Since you put it specifically at age 30 - it was easy to compare year to year - and we have seen that the entire national press considered Dirk to be the best PF of that year. You could argue that Dame was the best PG of last year - but the national NBA press did not think so as 2 point guards were selected into the 1st all-NBA team (Curry and Luka) ahead of him. Luka is questionable, but as good as Dame's season was last year, individually, Curry was just unbelievable.

 

[riverman]

Since when is Dirk "my guy"?

If anyone here is tilting the windmills based on "his guy" it's not me. I was never a Dallas fan - nor a Dirk devotee. But he was an exceptional NBA player (as is Dame) - and overall, I think Dirk was, so far in their career given that Dame is not retired yet, a better player overall than Dame - but it is not a huge difference. He certainly achieved more in his first 10 years in the league than Dame did, both with his team and individually (MVP award).

Since you put it specifically at age 30 - it was easy to compare year to year - and we have seen that the entire national press considered Dirk to be the best PF of that year. You could argue that Dame was the best PG of last year - but the national NBA press did not think so as 2 point guards were selected into the 1st all-NBA team (Curry and Luka) ahead of him. Luka is questionable, but as good as Dame's season was last year, individually, Curry was just unbelievable.

Usually when I tell basketball fans I think Dirk was overrated, they dig deep to prove how good he was....so I assume he's important to their idea of basketball greatness....other than that I really don't care about the stats but care about the heart and leadership and amazing talent Lillard has shown the world....and I also think Lillard has played a tougher era to stand out in than guys of bygone eras.....the game has changed...very few of those 89-86 scores like back in the day. The 3 pt shot is now used by most of the players in the league....back then it was a last ditch option for most shooters.Shot clock shot. Lillard has stood out in a deeper field than guys who played a decade or more ago.

 

[Minstrel]

Even if in a pure vacuum, Nowitzki and Lillard were comparable talents (which I don't think they were), a true stretch four, one who could shoot like top-end guard, was rarer and more valuable to roster construction than a scoring guard.

Comparing Nowitzki to Korver is silly, it's like comparing Steph Curry to Korver. Korver was a stand-still spot-up shooter. Korver and Kerr were comparables. If you want to compare Nowitzki to someone, it would be Ray Allen--except as a 7-foot tall Ray Allen. Making Ray Allen 7' tall without any skills degradation absolutely makes for a better player--blocking his shot becomes essentially impossible. Passing lanes, both to and from, become much easier. And while Nowitzki may not have been a great point-of-attack defender, he provided quite a bit more help defense than Lillard by virtue of blocked shots and defensive rebounding.

I think there are very few people who would select a prime Lillard over a prime Nowitzki.

 

[riverman]

Even if in a pure vacuum, Nowitzki and Lillard were comparable talents (which I don't think they were), a true stretch four, one who could shoot like top-end guard, was rarer and more valuable to roster construction than a scoring guard.

Comparing Nowitzki to Korver is silly, it's like comparing Steph Curry to Korver. Korver was a stand-still spot-up shooter. Korver and Kerr were comparables. If you want to compare Nowitzki to someone, it would be Ray Allen--except as a 7-foot tall Ray Allen. Making Ray Allen 7' tall without any skills degradation absolutely makes for a better player--blocking his shot becomes essentially impossible. Passing lanes, both to and from, become much easier. And while Nowitzki may not have been a great point-of-attack defender, he provided quite a bit more help defense than Lillard by virtue of blocked shots and defensive rebounding.

I think there are very few people who would select a prime Lillard over a prime Nowitzki.

I would.....

 

[calvin natt]

Dirk
NBA MVP
NBA champ - on his back through brutal path
14 time all star
4 time first team all NBA
75 anniversary team

 

[TBpup]

Dirk
NBA MVP
NBA champ - on his back through brutal path
14 time all star
4 time first team all NBA
75 anniversary team

Might have had 2 titles if the refs hadn't turned the first attempt into a FT parade for the Heat.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[illmatic99]

you came out of your supposed hiatus to post that garbage? foh

you're not welcome back on the bandwagon.

 

[Bingo Bango]

Has Simons made Lillard expendable? I’m not saying the Blazers should do it, but can you imagine the team we’d have with all the assets we’d get for Lillard?

 

[Wizard Mentor]

no
/end thread

 

[KSF-ERIC]

It’s true. Simons plus Dame’s haul is better than Dame plus Simons/CJ haul. But I love Dame so I say keep him.