Politics Transgender in the military

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Natebishop3 said:
Every single person that I know who has joined the military did so because they wanted improvement.

I know people who were fat when they joined and they thought it would get them in shape.

I know people who were skinny when they joined and they thought it would make them buff.

I know people who lacked discipline and direction, so they joined because they thought the military would give them purpose.

The military isn't there to make you skinny. It's not there to make you buff. It's not there to give you discipline. Does the military exist to perform those functions or are they a byproduct of training to provide a fighting force?
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The military also isn't there to give medical care to people with pre existing mental/physical illnesses.

Is it just this one disqualifying mental illness that you have a problem with?

Or is it all of them?

Because there's thousands of things that will disqualify someone from serving in the military.

Don't be shy now. Let me know how you feel about all the oppressed flat footers.
 
For one, I am not for this. I am against it but at the same time I can't help but notice the insane outrage over an issue that is an extreme minority. I mean how many transgender people are actually in the military? honestly. has to be an EXTREME minority. I think the outrage is a little too much. Everybodys point is "well yeah I think if you wanna serve you should be able to", okay yeah well flat footed people can't join, if you have issues with your eyes, etc. I just feel as if people are getting overly outraged again. I think that people in America really need to have a conversation about mental illness and joining the military. There are a lot of people that do and I don't think that should be allowed and one can make the case with transgenders.
 
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They should let everyone in, but that also means females should be on the combat lines, given the same requirements as men or transgenders and in equal proportions. :MARIS61:
 
Damn I thought they were our generals too, I guess trump has taken everything for himself...
 
Natebishop3 said:
If transgender people want to serve, let them.

I am curious though, what is the cost of the surgery/process for the government? And really, not just the cost, but how many people could possibly be requesting it? Even if the surgery was expensive, I can't imagine there's a huge line of people getting gender reassignment surgery in the military.

This just seems like an excuse to oppress these people.
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After reading crandc's article, I read some others. According to one there are 15000 Transgender people in the US military. 134000 US veterans.
32% were assigned male at birth, 5.5 % were female. Don't know what happened to the other percentage? Another article, other than the one I posted, also places the cost at around $100000.

One question I have that I don't get a direct answer, is the reassignment alway to female? This always means they need to be exempt from fitness tests for atleast some period according to the article.

The next question I have if the US military is going to be in this business, why? And if so, why not do the reassignment before begining the enlistment time so they serve the full time as a functioning person, not a Transgender?

BTW I think I met one of the vets last Friday. Her beard was badly in need of the razor. Chin only.
 
crandc said:
The National Defense Research Institute did an in-depth study. Assessing the Implications of Allowing Transgender Personnel to Serve Openly", which I am quite sure Trump did not read (neither, I am sure, did MarAzul, it's so much easier to call people full of bullshit than to, you know, know something about a subject)

https://books.google.com/books?id=Jb2pDAAAQBAJ&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11#v=onepage&q&f=false

The estimate the costs. Less than one Trump weekend golfing.
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This is why I have not really responded. I don't like the idea of paying for this surgery but it seemed stupid to bitch if Trump is using this kind of cash for other stuff we don't need.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Speaking of @BlazerCaravan @BosnianChampion where the fuck did she go?
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There was a thread created by BC that received a reaction BC wasn't expecting.
Regardless of how I feel, if you look close enough they're still around from time to time.
Just you'd have to remember what BC said. Which I do b/c I enjoyed most of BC's posts.
@SlyPokerDog edit if it's necessary.
 
honkicracker said:
There was a thread created by BC that received a reaction BC wasn't expecting.
Regardless of how I feel, if you look close enough they're still around from time to time.
Just you'd have to remember what BC said. Which I do b/c I enjoyed most of BC's posts.
@SlyPokerDog edit if it's necessary.
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Holy crap. @BlazerCaravan is @BigGameDamian..... bravo. Good work on the long con.
 
Nate said:
My friend from high school couldn't join the military because he was born with one kidney.

Let's march on Washington!!!

Another friend couldn't join because he had irritable bowel syndrome.

#irritablebowelsmatter
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This. I wasn't able to join any branch of the military because of a severe hearing loss. Nobody marched for me. Nobody raised any protests in my honor. Nobody made self-righteous posts on Twitter with my name in hashtag. Nobody offered to give me $10,000 in new hearing aids.

I have a hard time feeling empathy for a tiny minority of enlisted people who charged the tax payers $100,000 for a new gender just because their feelings told them that it's okay to do it, and now have to get the boot because of it.

The military was never meant to be a platform for social justice or experimentation. I find it very disappointing that some people just don't GET that. They just don't get the fact that the military isn't just any ol' job. It's not some job flipping burgers at McDonald's, folding clothes at a dry cleaner, being a janitor at a school, or working in retail. This is the fucking MILITARY. The most elite fighting force on the planet. And that is the first goal of the military: to be a fighting force capable of defending the homeland and defeating any enemy foreign or domestic.

They have very strict requirements for a reason, and if you don't meet them, then tough shit.

The Left is playing this same emotional card that they played a few years ago when it was ruled that private government contractors had the right not to hire LGBT people. You know.....as if there's tons of gays and transgendered folks just lining up to work at General Dynamics or Northrop Grumman.
 
Jade Falcon said:
This. I wasn't able to join any branch of the military because of a severe hearing loss. Nobody marched for me. Nobody raised any protests in my honor. Nobody made self-righteous posts on Twitter with my name in hashtag. Nobody offered to give me $10,000 in new hearing aids.

I have a hard time feeling empathy for a tiny minority of enlisted people who charged the tax payers $100,000 for a new gender just because their feelings told them that it's okay to do it, and now have to get the boot because of it.

The military was never meant to be a platform for social justice or experimentation. I find it very disappointing that some people just don't GET that. They just don't get the fact that the military isn't just any ol' job. It's not some job flipping burgers at McDonald's, folding clothes at a dry cleaner, being a janitor at a school, or working in retail. This is the fucking MILITARY. The most elite fighting force on the planet. And that is the first goal of the military: to be a fighting force capable of defending the homeland and defeating any enemy foreign or domestic.

They have very strict requirements for a reason, and if you don't meet them, then tough shit.

The Left is playing this same emotional card that they played a few years ago when it was ruled that private government contractors had the right not to hire LGBT people. You know.....as if there's tons of gays and transgendered folks just lining up to work at General Dynamics or Northrop Grumman.
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maybe because severe hearing loss would affect your ability to do the job. How is being transgender affecting job performance?
 
ehizzy3 said:
maybe because severe hearing loss would affect your ability to do the job. How is being transgender affecting job performance?
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Really? You really need to ask how hormone therapy and gender re-identification counseling (among other things) can effect your job as a soldier?

Really?
 
Jade Falcon said:
Really? You really need to ask how hormone therapy and gender re-identification counseling (among other things) can effect your job as a soldier?

Really?
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well im sure we would hear about how it is affecting job performance. this was a financial decision, was it not?

does no one else in the military receive counseling?
 
ehizzy3 said:
well im sure we would hear about how it is affecting job performance. this was a financial decision, was it not?

does no one else in the military receive counseling?
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Changing someone's very identity; their sexual identity, social identity, and personality, takes far more than just an hour-session every two weeks to talk about their feelings. That's a far different kind of therapy. Surely even you can understand this.
 
Jade Falcon said:
Changing someone's very identity; their sexual identity, social identity, and personality, takes far more than just an hour-session every two weeks to talk about their feelings. That's a far different kind of therapy. Surely even you can understand this.
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Do you have a source for this? Transgenders have more counseling sessions than the average person who receives counseling?

Have you heard of a story of being Trans affecting job performance in the military?
 
ehizzy3 said:
Do you have a source for this? Transgenders have more counseling sessions than the average person who receives counseling?

Have you heard of a story of being Trans affecting job performance in the military?
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This is common sense shit. You want me to believe that a transgendered person can do just as fine as John Everyday Soldier, who needs counseling for depression or PTSD.

I don't buy that for a minute, and I don't need a source to tell me that. It's common-sense shit: changing a person's entire identity has numerous risks and consequences attached to it. It's not just regular ol' counseling. It's an entire process. And the military should not be responsible for it if it didn't happen as a result of their job (IE: combat or accidents while performing their duty).
 
Listen guys, it's just common sense. Different people are icky. So like, they shouldn't protect our freedom.
 
Great, now we get to hear more about transgender shit....:dry:
 
Nate said:
You might as well try to argue that bi-polar disorder isn't a mental illness.

Or anorexia

Or depression

Or schizophrenia

All things that will prevent a person from joining the military.

Just like having feet that are too flat.

Felons can't join the military.

People over the age of 29 cant join the military.

You know nothing about this, and clearly don't give a fuck about the military.

But this is a chance for you bitch about Trump, so I'm sure you'll take it, and claim it's for the greater good.

#flatfootlivesmatter
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No, I never said bipolar is not a mental illness. Stop digressing. I asked you to show me the "science" that being transgender is a mental illness. You reply by saying flat feet are flat.

Cite a peer-reviewed scientific paper that demonstrates being transgender is a mental illness. If you can't, you have no business claiming "science" when you mean bigotry.
 
Jade Falcon said:
This is common sense shit. You want me to believe that a transgendered person can do just as fine as John Everyday Soldier, who needs counseling for depression or PTSD.

I don't buy that for a minute, and I don't need a source to tell me that. It's common-sense shit: changing a person's entire identity has numerous risks and consequences attached to it. It's not just regular ol' counseling. It's an entire process. And the military should not be responsible for it if it didn't happen as a result of their job (IE: combat or accidents while performing their duty).
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They'd be in the middle of combat, and be like "ohh ohh, I broke a nail!"

kidding, kidding! Take it easy SJWs.....
 
You know the most ignorant are the ones who say others spout bullshit.

I have yet to hear a reply. What do you think should be done with the thousands of transgender people serving? Some are in combat zones. Some are commanding officers. Do you immediately throw them out? Give them 30 days? If an officer refuses to expel a transgender person under his/her command, should that officer be court-martialed? Does this affect civilians working for the military? Contractors? National Guard? How many years will this be in court when transpeople sue over being kicked out? Won't that be expensive and disruptive?

I have yet to see a citation that transgender people are either mentally ill or less effective than cisgender people in the military.

When "don't ask don't tell" was repealed, it was after 2 years of debate. The military was then given 8 months before President Obama certified they were ready to implement repeal, and gave them 60 days to do so. But of course he is Obama so being thoughtful and serious about policy was very bad. The super patriot Trump just tweeted without consulting the Pentagon, the House or Senate Armed Forces Committees, the Joint Chiefs or anyone else. Because the far right is pissed he's going after Sessions. When Sessions was appointed Attorney General, the white supremacists exulted. Trump had to throw the far right a bone to keep them happy and the bone was transgender patriots who serve in the military, something Trump never did.
 
crandc said:
You know the most ignorant are the ones who say others spout bullshit.

I have yet to hear a reply. What do you think should be done with the thousands of transgender people serving? Some are in combat zones. Some are commanding officers. Do you immediately throw them out? Give them 30 days? If an officer refuses to expel a transgender person under his/her command, should that officer be court-martialed? Does this affect civilians working for the military? Contractors? National Guard? How many years will this be in court when transpeople sue over being kicked out? Won't that be expensive and disruptive?

I have yet to see a citation that transgender people are either mentally ill or less effective than cisgender people in the military.

When "don't ask don't tell" was repealed, it was after 2 years of debate. The military was then given 8 months before President Obama certified they were ready to implement repeal, and gave them 60 days to do so. But of course he is Obama so being thoughtful and serious about policy was very bad. The super patriot Trump just tweeted without consulting the Pentagon, the House or Senate Armed Forces Committees, the Joint Chiefs or anyone else. Because the far right is pissed he's going after Sessions. When Sessions was appointed Attorney General, the white supremacists exulted. Trump had to throw the far right a bone to keep them happy and the bone was transgender patriots who serve in the military, something Trump never did.
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The thousands of transgender people serving should be left alone but they shouldn't get any surgeries on taxpayer money. If they need hormones or what have you..fine.

I'm not going to research studies but one recent study I read used the subjects statements that they felt that public stress from being treated poorly was their major issue and the study used those answers as evidence that these people aren't mentally ill.

I've watched the show Hoarders a million times and the Hoarders themselves are generally happy living in filth. I don't know how many things we want to classify as mental illness and I don't work in the field.

However, removing a fully functional penis is going to strike straight guys as BATSHIT CRAZY no matter how many times you say it is ok.

So, leave the people serving alone unless they're otherwise disruptive. Nothing I hate more than people getting the rules changed on them after they've already been told something else.

That's some used car salesman bullshit
 
crandc said:
No, I never said bipolar is not a mental illness. Stop digressing. I asked you to show me the "science" that being transgender is a mental illness. You reply by saying flat feet are flat.

Cite a peer-reviewed scientific paper that demonstrates being transgender is a mental illness. If you can't, you have no business claiming "science" when you mean bigotry.
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I'm digressing by making a comparison?

It's common knowledge. If Kyrie Irving asked me to show him proof that the world isn't flat, I wouldn't feel obligated. Sorry for digressing there? (I made another comparison).

I guess you don't care about all the other people that are being oppressed, by not being allowed in the military. So you only care about one group of individuals. A bigot would only care about one group of individuals.

And I never said, that you said "bipolar is not a mental illness".

I'm sorry for confusing you though, I'll try to mansplain better in the future.
 
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The degree of Trump's incompetence is astounding. Apparently he hasn't even officially told the military about his decision.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/...-military-ban-no-modification-241029?lo=ap_a1

There will be “no modifications” to the military’s transgender policy as a result of President Donald Trump’s declared ban on transgender men and women, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs said in a message to top military officers on Thursday -- the latest sign of the disarray following the commander-in-chief's abrupt announcement.

Marine Gen. Joe Dunford also wrote in the message, which was sent to the chiefs of the military branches and senior enlisted leaders, that the military will continue to “treat all of our personnel with respect.”

“I know there are questions about yesterday's announcement on the transgender policy by the President,” Dunford wrote in the internal communication, a copy of which was provided to POLITICO. “There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President's direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.”

“In the meantime, we will continue to treat all of our personnel with respect. As importantly, given the current fight and the challenges we face, we will all remain focused on accomplishing our assigned missions,” he continued.
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Reminds me of Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy in The Office.
 
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