Travis or Marty

[Nikolokolus]

Which would you rather have as your backup 3 (assuming Nic is the starter when fully healthy).

Travis has focus issues on defense, but he's arguably a more reliable threat from the corners, has always been a more efficient player than Martell and he's already proven himself to be more effective coming off the bench than Martell too.

For my money I think I'm going to go with Big shot Trav -- depending on whether or not Martell can be unloaded and Travis is willing to sign for a 4-5 million/year contract this summer.

 

[Eastoff]

I'm saying Marty, because we won't be able to get anything in a trade for him.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

I say Travis. He's that guy who's instant offense. He's also one of the go-to-guys late in the fourth.

When Rudy returns to form he'll play the role Marty is playing now only that he's WAY better than Webster.

Marty is just too damn inconsistent.

Travis/Rudy >>>>>>> Marty/Rudy

 

[Kaydow]

Which would you rather have as your backup 3 (assuming Nic is the starter when fully healthy).

Travis has focus issues on defense, but he's arguably a more reliable threat from the corners, and has always been a more efficient player than Martell and he's already proven himself to be more effective coming off the bench than Martell too.

For my money I think I'm going to go with Big shot Trav -- depending on whether or not Martell can be unloaded and Travis is willing to sign for a 4-5 million/year contract this summer.

No question - Travis. Martell is shooting 37% (35% of 3's) and that is supposed to be his forte. In December he averaged 30 MPG - he had some bright spots but he finished the month with 9 PPG, 34% PG/34% 3 Pt FG, 4 Rbs. If ever there was an opportunity for Martell to step up it has been this season - he's just not getting it done. He plays hard, but he's just got too many flaws. Not that TO is a model of consistency, but he does some things Martel doesn't (ie, get his own shot, hit shots in the clutch) I've finally seen enough of Martell - I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is now.

Obviously, Martell would be harder to move. You'd probably be taking back someone else's bad contract if you were to trade him.

 

[andalusian]

In a Vacuum (not as a trade asset), Given the same salary more or less, It's Travis and it's not close, and never was.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Shooting hasn't been Martell's "forte" for 3 seasons now. Ever since Nate took him aside in 2007 and told him he was going to be the designated perimeter defender his focus has shifted.

I'm assuming that you're ok with the Outlaw of the last two+ years. Well, he's averaged right around 12 ppg while taking 11 shots a game in 27 minutes. When you compare that to Webster's 9 ppg in 7 shots in 25 minutes, there's not a big drop in efficiency there. And when you do factor in the things Webster does that Travis doesn't (namely, knowing where to be on the court, who to guard and actually guarding them).

Which "shots in the clutch" has Webster missed this year? He doesn't play many minutes in crunch time, and when he does he's shooting better than Blake is. When he's on court in crunch time (limited minutes, to be sure) the stats say that we have an offensive efficiency of 128 and a defensive efficiency of 90. Those are pretty darn good (compared to Blake's 104/97--still good-- and Outlaw's 74/106 on 28% shooting in his 11 games).

He admittedly "plays hard" (another thing Travis doesn't always do, but that must not count), but he's "just got too many flaws". Aside from being only an above-average 3pt shooter rather than a great one, what are they? You admit he plays hard, I say he plays pretty damn good defense, he's making enough of his shots to almost be in double figures every game, he doesn't complain about sitting in crunch time....

"I've finally seen enough of Martell, I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is right now". You mean, the best perimeter defender we've had this year and a double-digit-ish scorer? I'm pretty ok with that. But I do think he's going to be better.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Another quick stat: Travis playing against 3's this year (backup or otherwise): 7.5 PER, 19.7 PER Against.
Travis playing against 3's last year: 14 PER, 17.1 PER Against.
Webster against 3's this year: 11.5 PER, 12.5 PER Against. He's holding the best wing on the other team to a "below-average starter" level on offense...in other words...making the opponents' best wing have the average production of Martell Webster. Travis makes the wings he plays against (not usually the best ones) look like Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala, Gilbert Arenas, etc.

EDIT: I'm using these specifically b/c the poll was "backup 3".

 

[Luther]

Shooting hasn't been Martell's "forte" for 3 seasons now. Ever since Nate took him aside in 2007 and told him he was going to be the designated perimeter defender his focus has shifted.

I'm assuming that you're ok with the Outlaw of the last two+ years. Well, he's averaged right around 12 ppg while taking 11 shots a game in 27 minutes. When you compare that to Webster's 9 ppg in 7 shots in 25 minutes, there's not a big drop in efficiency there. And when you do factor in the things Webster does that Travis doesn't (namely, knowing where to be on the court, who to guard and actually guarding them).

Which "shots in the clutch" has Webster missed this year? He doesn't play many minutes in crunch time, and when he does he's shooting better than Blake is. When he's on court in crunch time (limited minutes, to be sure) the stats say that we have an offensive efficiency of 128 and a defensive efficiency of 90. Those are pretty darn good (compared to Blake's 104/97--still good-- and Outlaw's 74/106 on 28% shooting in his 11 games).

He admittedly "plays hard" (another thing Travis doesn't always do, but that must not count), but he's "just got too many flaws". Aside from being only an above-average 3pt shooter rather than a great one, what are they? You admit he plays hard, I say he plays pretty damn good defense, he's making enough of his shots to almost be in double figures every game, he doesn't complain about sitting in crunch time....

"I've finally seen enough of Martell, I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is right now". You mean, the best perimeter defender we've had this year and a double-digit-ish scorer? I'm pretty ok with that. But I do think he's going to be better.

Well put.

 

[RoyToy]

Another quick stat: Travis playing against 3's this year (backup or otherwise): 7.5 PER, 19.7 PER Against.
Travis playing against 3's last year: 14 PER, 17.1 PER Against.
Webster against 3's this year: 11.5 PER, 12.5 PER Against. He's holding the best wing on the other team to a "below-average starter" level on offense...in other words...making the opponents' best wing have the average production of Martell Webster. Travis makes the wings he plays against (not usually the best ones) look like Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala, Gilbert Arenas, etc.

EDIT: I'm using these specifically b/c the poll was "backup 3".

Good post. Outlaw was nothing more than a streaky scorer.

 

[Kaydow]

Shooting hasn't been Martell's "forte" for 3 seasons now. Ever since Nate took him aside in 2007 and told him he was going to be the designated perimeter defender his focus has shifted.

I'm assuming that you're ok with the Outlaw of the last two+ years. Well, he's averaged right around 12 ppg while taking 11 shots a game in 27 minutes. When you compare that to Webster's 9 ppg in 7 shots in 25 minutes, there's not a big drop in efficiency there. And when you do factor in the things Webster does that Travis doesn't (namely, knowing where to be on the court, who to guard and actually guarding them).

Which "shots in the clutch" has Webster missed this year? He doesn't play many minutes in crunch time, and when he does he's shooting better than Blake is. When he's on court in crunch time (limited minutes, to be sure) the stats say that we have an offensive efficiency of 128 and a defensive efficiency of 90. Those are pretty darn good (compared to Blake's 104/97--still good-- and Outlaw's 74/106 on 28% shooting in his 11 games).

He admittedly "plays hard" (another thing Travis doesn't always do, but that must not count), but he's "just got too many flaws". Aside from being only an above-average 3pt shooter rather than a great one, what are they? You admit he plays hard, I say he plays pretty damn good defense, he's making enough of his shots to almost be in double figures every game, he doesn't complain about sitting in crunch time....

"I've finally seen enough of Martell, I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is right now". You mean, the best perimeter defender we've had this year and a double-digit-ish scorer? I'm pretty ok with that. But I do think he's going to be better.

Are you serious? Our starting SF shoots 37% and has no ability to put the ball on the deck and get to the basket. He doesn't even have a jab step (at least not one that goes in) You are "pretty ok with that"? Combine the shooting % & his 8.7 PPG to Travis 12/13 with what the stats don't show - that Travis can actually create a shot for himself on a team that lacks that, and it's not close offensively. Oh, and who plays better off the bench? Martell? He's played some really bad basketball, even by his standards, coming off the bench. Travis embraces the 6th man role.

And to your "which shots in the clutch has Webster missed"? How many does he take??!! The better question is How many games has he stepped up late with the game on the line? Travis has a pretty good history of that. Webster is a better perimeter defender, but we're not talking about Bruce Bowen vs. JJ Reddick. Martell has many lapses himself, and has nights where he gets killed. Ultimately, I like Batum as our starting SF. Travis' versatility to play the 3/4 & come off the bench gives him the nod - easily over MW. Martell would help his cause if he shot, oh say 44% FG and 39% from deep, and if he could do it coming off the bench - he just can't seem to do that.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Completely serious.

"which clutch shots missed" was something you put in, and I refuted. He's a better "clutch shooter" (such as he is on the court, and takes the shot) that either Blake or Travis. It's tough to "step up late" when you're sitting on the bench....but when he's not, the Blazers are a 127 offensive efficiency and a 90 defensive. That's pretty good.

If Martell has nights where "he gets killed", then he must have a lot more Terminator nights too, since his average defensive production is so good.

Travis's Versatility to play the 3/4? He plays the 3 only b/c Nate puts him there. And when he does, he makes everyone he plays against (usually backup 3's,right?) look like Rudy Gay or Gil Arenas.

So the difference between Martell's 36% 3pt shooting (49-137) and this magical,mythical 39% you speak of where he'd be acceptable is 4 shots made over 34 games. So to you, that extra .125 shots per game....that extra .375 points per game...is what's making the difference b/w you choosing Webster or "easily" choosing Travis? This is the point where I say : "Are you serious?"

 

[STOMP]

No question - Travis. Martell is shooting 37% (35% of 3's) and that is supposed to be his forte. In December he averaged 30 MPG - he had some bright spots but he finished the month with 9 PPG, 34% PG/34% 3 Pt FG, 4 Rbs. If ever there was an opportunity for Martell to step up it has been this season - he's just not getting it done. He plays hard, but he's just got too many flaws. Not that TO is a model of consistency, but he does some things Martel doesn't (ie, get his own shot, hit shots in the clutch) I've finally seen enough of Martell - I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is now.

Obviously, Martell would be harder to move. You'd probably be taking back someone else's bad contract if you were to trade him.

true dat. If you're going to factor in the over all team situation, really the question is... next year's back up forwards, Marty + who else? Travis, Claver, and Freeland are some of the possibilities management could add. Regardless, I'd rather Martell not be in the rotation much (if at all) as his production leveled off to sub-par a while back. He does seem to bring good effort/energy so I'd be fine with having him as a 12-15th man. I'd be fine with having Travis back in the rotation at a reasonable rate, but I could also understand the club going another direction.

if we're not factoring in contracts and the team's situation, I'll go with the better player... Travis

STOMP

 

[RayDavies]

Trav, FTW.

I gave Martell the benefit of the doubt for a long time. Now I am willing to admit... He just ain't very good. I like his effort, and commitment to improving his D. He hasn't lived up to my expectations in any other areas, however. He seems a little like he is just too psychologically fragile to be consistent.

 

[Kaydow]

Completely serious.

"which clutch shots missed" was something you put in, and I refuted. He's a better "clutch shooter" (such as he is on the court, and takes the shot) that either Blake or Travis. It's tough to "step up late" when you're sitting on the bench....but when he's not, the Blazers are a 127 offensive efficiency and a 90 defensive. That's pretty good.

If Martell has nights where "he gets killed", then he must have a lot more Terminator nights too, since his average defensive production is so good.

Travis's Versatility to play the 3/4? He plays the 3 only b/c Nate puts him there. And when he does, he makes everyone he plays against (usually backup 3's,right?) look like Rudy Gay or Gil Arenas.

So the difference between Martell's 36% 3pt shooting (49-137) and this magical,mythical 39% you speak of where he'd be acceptable is 4 shots made over 34 games. So to you, that extra .125 shots per game....that extra .375 points per game...is what's making the difference b/w you choosing Webster or "easily" choosing Travis? This is the point where I say : "Are you serious?"

That's a reach . . . and the difference between hitting .260 and .300 is 4 hits in 100 AB's. Yet one guy is good and the other isn't. 39% isn't "mythical" to me, it's merely acceptable for a starting SF who does NOTHING else offensively. I guess we agree to disagree?

 

[oldmangrouch]

One point tends to derail the entire argument: when Webster makes a positive contribution, it is because he is allowed to start and play extended minutes. When asked to come off the bench and make an immediate contribution - he tends to founder. Something about his mindset/game makes him a terrible reserve.

 

[STOMP]

One point tends to derail the entire argument: when Webster makes a positive contribution, it is because he is allowed to start and play extended minutes. When asked to come off the bench and make an immediate contribution - he tends to founder. Something about his mindset/game makes him a terrible reserve.

as long as he doesn't bitch much, I don't see how his mindset shortcomings will be a problem in the role I envision for him.

Sub-par starter & terrible reserve = end of the bench/practice player on next season's Blazers

STOMP