Politics Trump Owns Stock in Company that produces Hydroxycloroquine

[barfo]

Seriously? They were very specific saying it was not contagious, would not be a pandemic, and couldn't be passed from person to person. Not sure how they were more right.....than anyone.

They did say that there was no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission in mid-January, which is clearly incorrect. However they corrected that within a few days, and were thus way out front of Trump, who continued to deny that it was even a problem into March.

In any case, even if WHO is completely corrupt, completely incompetent, and using a magic 8 ball to make decisions, that doesn't excuse anything Trump has done or not done.

barfo

 

[TBpup]

They did say that there was no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission in mid-January, which is clearly incorrect. However they corrected that within a few days, and were thus way out front of Trump, who continued to deny that it was even a problem into March.

In any case, even if WHO is completely corrupt, completely incompetent, and using a magic 8 ball to make decisions, that doesn't excuse anything Trump has done or not done.

barfo

He denied there was a problem? He shut down travel from China way back in January.....and was called racist and xenophobic among other things whilst people like DeBlasio were not closing down such a densley populated city like NY and telling people it wasn't a big deal. I'm not excusing Trump....but seeing the whole picture rather than just pointing out his mistakes and/or pretty much blaming him for everything.

 

[barfo]

He denied there was a problem? He shut down travel from China way back in January.....and was called racist and xenophobic among other things whilst people like DeBlasio were not closing down such a densley populated city like NY and telling people it wasn't a big deal. I'm not excusing Trump....but seeing the whole picture rather than just pointing out his mistakes and/or pretty much blaming him for everything.

DeBlasio has been (and continues to be) really awful also, that's completely true.

But Trump didn't really shut down travel from China, and to the extent he did it was ineffective.

Trump's big picture response has been terrible. There's been very very little he's done right.

barfo

 

[wizenheimer]

He shut down travel from China way back in January..

holy shit!!...about the 873rd time it's been mentioned that Trump closed travel from China (when he really didn't, did he)

so, a pitcher gives up 13 runs in the first inning, then strikes out a batter, then allows 7 more runs before closing the inning. He give up 17 more runs in the 2nd inning without retiring a batter....and all his fans can talk about is what a great pitcher he is because of that strike out. Ignore the 37 runs the other team has on the board, that's fake news....just focus on that great strike-out

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

holy shit!!...about the 873rd time it's been mentioned that Trump closed travel from China (when he really didn't, did he)

so, a pitcher gives up 13 runs in the first inning, then strikes out a batter, then allows 7 more runs before closing the inning. He give up 17 more runs in the 2nd inning without retiring a batter....and all his fans can talk about is what a great pitcher he is because of that strike out. Ignore the 37 runs the other team has on the board, that's fake news....just focus on that great strike-out

I think Trump (and really most government leaders, local and foreign as well) have handled this poorly. That said I think this is a very complicated situation and it's going to be extremely difficult to gauge how many people lost their lives that wouldn't have if he did something different. How many people die from the tanked economy, How many people would have died with more drastic measures, how many would have died with none.
I never get much of a response to this but I think some of the more drastic measures people are asking for and have asked for would cost people their lives as well.
I am not at all saying we can't criticize Trump, if I was in charge I believe I would've handled this much differently than he did, but I don't know if they would have been better or not.

 

[Lanny]

Reminds me of the old saying, those who can't do teach.

Well, at least Trump can't be blamed for teaching anything other than the hard lessons of doing business with him.

 

[andalusian]

I am not at all saying we can't criticize Trump, if I was in charge I believe I would've handled this much differently than he did, but I don't know if they would have been better or not.

All we need to do is look at the results in California which was first to issue shelter at home vs Lousiana, NY, MI etc... - despite the fact that California had some of the earliest cases and has some of the most dense areas in the country - it did the shelter in place early, it started building it's ventilator and PPE supplies - and all you need to do is look at the number of infections and death overall and more specifically, number of those per number of residents. The proof is out there for everyone to see - there is no "could have been worse" if you actually look at a proper, early, decisive response.

There is no avoiding this completely - but there is also no doubt that proper leadership and decisive action saved tons of lives.

 

[stampedehero]

This went off patent decades ago, so it's been generic for a while. Not sure how much money he can really make off it if Sanofi shares climb really, but still, shady as F. And not unexpected.

Trump is the modern day illusionist

 

[TBpup]

There are things he (or anyone) could have improved on, especially with hindsight. There are things he has done well. I enjoy my conversations with people who have enough of an open mind to see some of both.

Enjoy....

 

[CupWizier]

He denied there was a problem? He shut down travel from China way back in January.....and was called racist and xenophobic among other things whilst people like DeBlasio were not closing down such a densley populated city like NY and telling people it wasn't a big deal. I'm not excusing Trump....but seeing the whole picture rather than just pointing out his mistakes and/or pretty much blaming him for everything.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fiv...-the-coronavirus-looks-relatively-contained-2

 

[yankeesince59]

I see some of both...so my mind is relatively "open".

1. I will admit that Trump did eventually act.

2.I also realize that Trump didn't act nearly as quick as he could/should have, which will result in countless more people dying, perhaps some of us.

He's also predictably made this about him and has politicized this pandemic at nearly every turn.

 

[andalusian]

An organizer, a newspaper editer, a board member, a state senator and a partial term senator before running for office. Not exactly typical job experience. And if you took the '5 minutes' thing literally, well....lol.

I will be frank with you - I am not sure what to do with your lol comment or not typical job experience comments.

You are the one that compared Trump's non-existent medical knowledge to Obama's real, actual, proper experience in multiple levels of government - that comment is still absurd - lol is correct, but not the way you think it should be used.

One of them had years of experience, went up the different levels of government before running for president. The other is listening to the voices in his head or fox-news and parroting unsubstantiated scientific facts while the experts at his side repeatedly say that this is something that needs to be properly vetted.

 

[yankeesince59]

https://www.businessinsider.com/fiv...-the-coronavirus-looks-relatively-contained-2

Yup, both Kudlow and Conway are Trump's people and naturally toe the line.............."alternate facts".

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

All we need to do is look at the results in California which was first to issue shelter at home vs Lousiana, NY, MI etc... - despite the fact that California had some of the earliest cases and has some of the most dense areas in the country - it did the shelter in place early, it started building it's ventilator and PPE supplies - and all you need to do is look at the number of infections and death overall and more specifically, number of those per number of residents. The proof is out there for everyone to see - there is no "could have been worse" if you actually look at a proper, early, decisive response.

There is no avoiding this completely - but there is also no doubt that proper leadership and decisive action saved tons of lives.

Yes, but look at suicide calls and suicide deaths in California since the stay at home order, they've gone up. Do you count those people's deaths?

Do you count all the people who lost their jobs, and will have very lasting effects from that, suicide is much more likely amongst the unemployed. Suicide is just one effect of these type of measures too. I have family members who are weeks late getting refills on medication (one has some serious health issues too). Yeah it may have slowed down the spread of the disease though population density and climate of NY is much, much different than California.

The proof is out there that Coronavirus is not the only thing that can kill someone, and that measures taken to reduce one thing can and most likely will make other risks higher. I am not at all saying that Trumps response has been good, or that measures shouldn't be put in place, I am saying that IMO people have to acknowledge that it's not as easy do these things and everyone is saved.

 

[CupWizier]

There are things he (or anyone) could have improved on, especially with hindsight. There are things he has done well. I enjoy my conversations with people who have enough of an open mind to see some of both.

Enjoy....

So he kind of shut down flights from China, even though thousands were able to fly to the USA and tests weren't done to see if any were contagious. All it takes is one to start an epidemic and all it takes is a president that thinks it will just disappear to let it spread throughout the USA. There were a lot of mistakes made by this administration and we STILL don't have the ability to test all people that should be tested.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I see some of both...so my mind is relatively "open".

1. I will admit that Trump did eventually act.

2.I also realize that Trump didn't act nearly as quick as he could/should have, which will result in countless more people dying, perhaps some of us.

He's also predictably made this about him and has politicized this pandemic at nearly every turn.

This has been my biggest issue with Trump's response. No real plan seems to be involved. He gets up in front of a camera every day just spouting whatever, this has been him trying to get re-elected. Senate and House are trying to get re-elected as well. Trump has said a lot but done a horrible job at communicating anything worthwhile.

 

[CupWizier]

Yes, but look at suicide calls and suicide deaths in California since the stay at home order, they've gone up. Do you count those people's deaths?

Do you count all the people who lost their jobs, and will have very lasting effects from that, suicide is much more likely amongst the unemployed. Suicide is just one effect of these type of measures too. I have family members who are weeks late getting refills on medication (one has some serious health issues too). Yeah it may have slowed down the spread of the disease though population density and climate of NY is much, much different than California.

The proof is out there that Coronavirus is not the only thing that can kill someone, and that measures taken to reduce one thing can and most likely will make other risks higher. I am not at all saying that Trumps response has been good, or that measures shouldn't be put in place, I am saying that IMO people have to acknowledge that it's not as easy do these things and everyone is saved.

Do you have any proof that the increase in suicide calls is a direct relation to closing the state down or is it because of fear of getting the corona virus?

 

[andalusian]

Yes, but look at suicide calls and suicide deaths in California since the stay at home order, they've gone up. Do you count those people's deaths?

I do not have this data. Can you tell me where I can see it?

For the record, a week or so ago I think I saw that during the Pandemic Covid-19 deaths in NY per week were just behind heart related issues which is normally the #1 cause of death. Suicide is not even in the top-10 - so even if you double it - it would be a much smaller loss of life compared to what is happening from this disease (it's a horrible thing to say, but we are discussing efficiency here). I am certain that there are repercussions for everything we do - but I am going to go with Occam's Razor - when you have an obvious large immediate problem - you start by concentrating on it and deal with the smaller problems later.

Do you count all the people who lost their jobs, and will have very lasting effects from that, suicide is much more likely amongst the unemployed. Suicide is just one effect of these type of measures too. I have family members who are weeks late getting refills on medication (one has some serious health issues too). Yeah it may have slowed down the spread of the disease though population density and climate of NY is much, much different than California.

The proof is out there that Coronavirus is not the only thing that can kill someone, and that measures taken to reduce one thing can and most likely will make other risks higher. I am not at all saying that Trumps response has been good, or that measures shouldn't be put in place, I am saying that IMO people have to acknowledge that it's not as easy do these things and everyone is saved.

We have seen that the rest of the country is getting into shelter in place anyway - so the same effects are clearly going to be everywhere - so the argument is - we should do it later instead of immediately so more people will die of Covid-19 and later deal with the same issues?

Also remember, because we do not know that there are carriers that infect people - by hitting it early and limiting the number of carriers that infect others - it is very likely that the recovery time will be faster and at least partial normalcy can resume faster - so again, early action is better.

 

[CupWizier]

Yup, both Kudlow and Conway are Trump's puppets and naturally toe the line.............."alternate facts".

Made a slight adjustment.

 

[yankeesince59]

This has been my biggest issue with Trump's response. No real plan seems to be involved. He gets up in front of a camera every day just spouting whatever, this has been him trying to get re-elected. Senate and House are trying to get re-elected as well. Trump has said a lot but done a horrible job at communicating anything worthwhile.

I don't get how many of his followers can still support him...I mean WTF does it take for the light bulb to finally turn on? I can understand GOP members not wanting anyone with far left views but how they choose to follow THIS particular malignant dwarf of a human being is mind-numbing...geeez, get someone else...hell, I might even vote for them myself.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Do you have any proof that the increase in suicide calls is a direct relation to closing the state down or is it because of fear of getting the corona virus?

No, but we know that suicides/calls have spiked, and we also know that the conditions many are living in with stay in place system give rise to suicide rates. Such as being isolated, unemployed, loneliness. Seems like it would be an odd effect of, I'm scared I might get corona and die so I'll just do it myself.
But then you have medicine that people are behind on, you have people who can't afford meals for their families, you have supply lines buckling, you have food shortages coming in the fall. All of those things can attribute to deaths that didn't need to happen. Gun sales have shot through the roof too, that seems like it might not go so well. My point is just that all of these decisions have consequences, and a response, lack of response, over response, they all could and probably will cost lives.

 

[CupWizier]

No, but we know that suicides/calls have spiked, and we also know that the conditions many are living in with stay in place system give rise to suicide rates. Such as being isolated, unemployed, loneliness. Seems like it would be an odd effect of, I'm scared I might get corona and die so I'll just do it myself.
But then you have medicine that people are behind on, you have people who can't afford meals for their families, you have supply lines buckling, you have food shortages coming in the fall. All of those things can attribute to deaths that didn't need to happen. Gun sales have shot through the roof too, that seems like it might not go so well. My point is just that all of these decisions have consequences, and a response, lack of response, over response, they all could and probably will cost lives.

I think you are looking at it way to simplistic and it almost sounds like you think less should have been done to prevent possible alternative issues. I'm sure you don't mean that, but it's how some of your posts come across.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I do not have this data. Can you tell me where I can see it?

For the record, a week or so ago I think I saw that during the Pandemic Covid-19 deaths in NY per week were just behind heart related issues which is normally the #1 cause of death. Suicide is not even in the top-10 - so even if you double it - it would be a much smaller loss of life compared to what is happening from this disease (it's a horrible thing to say, but we are discussing efficiency here). I am certain that there are repercussions for everything we do - but I am going to go with Occam's Razor - when you have an obvious large immediate problem - you start by concentrating on it and deal with the smaller problems later.



We have seen that the rest of the country is getting into shelter in place anyway - so the same effects are clearly going to be everywhere - so the argument is - we should do it later instead of immediately so more people will die of Covid-19 and later deal with the same issues?

Also remember, because we do not know that there are carriers that infect people - by hitting it early and limiting the number of carriers that infect others - it is very likely that the recovery time will be faster and at least partial normalcy can resume faster - so again, early action is better.

Suicide is the 10th largest cause of death actually.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

Suicide is a very large immediate problem too, but let's talk about some of these other ones. Heart-related issues, 35% of mortality from heart issues is due to lack of exercise. It is a minority that have room in their apartments to exercise effectively, certainly shutting down gyms needs to happen, but staying in place isn't going to make heart issues better. Diabetes is like 8th or something on the list, Diet and Exercise are leading factors in that as well. Which is entirely my point. There are effects to all of these things. I am not saying getting out in front of it and taking these measures are bad, and I think if a plan was spelled out and put in place and it was followed that would have been great. The fact is though those plans could and would have killed people as well.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I think you are looking at it way to simplistic and it almost sounds like you think less should have been done to prevent possible alternative issues. I'm sure you don't mean that, but it's how some of your posts come across.

I am saying that all of these decisions have impacts that can cause a lot of death and the people saying, "shut it all down". You can be upset that more wasn't done for stockpiles of PPE or the bluster and lack of planning involved by all levels of government and I get that. I am just also of the opinion that it's not nearly as "easy" of a call as people are making it out to be and that risk in all directions was human lives.
I never once said don't take preventative measures, or getting out in front of things is bad, just that, that has risks too.
Trumps trying to make himself into a war-time president (he's not), but let's use an analogy. People were scared Trump would start WW3 that was brought up numerous times in 2016.
What if these same advisors and intel told him hey X country is going to attack us we need to attack them and make sure if a war is fought, it's on someone else's soil. If he, "got out in front" of that people would lose their minds that he was trying to start a war, they'd be trying to take away the credibility of that intelligence, and the advisors who gave it to him. If he does nothing and that country does attack and it costs a lot of American lives he's also got people upset at him.

All of these decisions at a time like this cost people their lives and certainly Trump and all of them have handled it poorly, or differently then I would have, I just don't get why people have such a hard time acknowledging that people can and will die prematurely from just about any action. It's brutal and I hate it but it's almost like running a cost-benefit analysis with human lives. With China's numbers being something they probably couldn't trust, and modeling being all over the place there are just a lot of hard decisions that need to be made. Did he perform poorly IMO yes. I just find this to be a much more complex situation than in February or early March, saying you're under martial law till June guys deal with it, which I have read people saying that should have been his plan...

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I am saying that all of these decisions have impacts that can cause a lot of death and the people saying, "shut it all down". You can be upset that more wasn't done for stockpiles of PPE or the bluster and lack of planning involved by all levels of government and I get that. I am just also of the opinion that it's not nearly as "easy" of a call as people are making it out to be and that risk in all directions was human lives.
I never once said don't take preventative measures, or getting out in front of things is bad, just that, that has risks too.
Trumps trying to make himself into a war-time president (he's not), but let's use an analogy. People were scared Trump would start WW3 that was brought up numerous times in 2016.
What if these same advisors and intel told him hey X country is going to attack us we need to attack them and make sure if a war is fought, it's on someone else's soil. If he, "got out in front" of that people would lose their minds that he was trying to start a war, they'd be trying to take away the credibility of that intelligence, and the advisors who gave it to him. If he does nothing and that country does attack and it costs a lot of American lives he's also got people upset at him.

All of these decisions at a time like this cost people their lives and certainly Trump and all of them have handled it poorly, or differently then I would have, I just don't get why people have such a hard time acknowledging that people can and will die prematurely from just about any action. It's brutal and I hate it but it's almost like running a cost-benefit analysis with human lives. With China's numbers being something they probably couldn't trust, and modeling being all over the place there are just a lot of hard decisions that need to be made. Did he perform poorly IMO yes. I just find this to be a much more complex situation than in February or early March, saying you're under martial law till June guys deal with it, which I have read people saying that should have been his plan...

I linked the video of Fauci telling Americans they didn't need to worry about this on Jan 21.

Now there is this.....https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/intel-agencies-covid-november/index.html

Trump saying that he only learned the seriousness just prior to February 2nd is completely plausible if he was listening to Fauci.

 

[CupWizier]

I am saying that all of these decisions have impacts that can cause a lot of death and the people saying, "shut it all down". You can be upset that more wasn't done for stockpiles of PPE or the bluster and lack of planning involved by all levels of government and I get that. I am just also of the opinion that it's not nearly as "easy" of a call as people are making it out to be and that risk in all directions was human lives.
I never once said don't take preventative measures, or getting out in front of things is bad, just that, that has risks too.
Trumps trying to make himself into a war-time president (he's not), but let's use an analogy. People were scared Trump would start WW3 that was brought up numerous times in 2016.
What if these same advisors and intel told him hey X country is going to attack us we need to attack them and make sure if a war is fought, it's on someone else's soil. If he, "got out in front" of that people would lose their minds that he was trying to start a war, they'd be trying to take away the credibility of that intelligence, and the advisors who gave it to him. If he does nothing and that country does attack and it costs a lot of American lives he's also got people upset at him.

All of these decisions at a time like this cost people their lives and certainly Trump and all of them have handled it poorly, or differently then I would have, I just don't get why people have such a hard time acknowledging that people can and will die prematurely from just about any action. It's brutal and I hate it but it's almost like running a cost-benefit analysis with human lives. With China's numbers being something they probably couldn't trust, and modeling being all over the place there are just a lot of hard decisions that need to be made. Did he perform poorly IMO yes. I just find this to be a much more complex situation than in February or early March, saying you're under martial law till June guys deal with it, which I have read people saying that should have been his plan...

That's reality. Pretty much any decision always has some consequences that may not be optimum as decisions should be made that make the most sense and the least amount of consequences. We can play the what if game but that isn't reality. Are they hard decisions? sure, but that's the governments job to make the best decisions and to have a leader that actually listens to the experts. Fact is, trump did not jump on this as soon as he could and instead tried to downplay it and it actually took individual states to make decisions rather than have leadership from the top making the proper decisions. All trump wants to do is blame China, blame Obama, blame anyone else but himself. He rated himself a 10 for his reposnse and decision. That's why people are upset with him and it's just a continuation of his 3.5 years in office. He made serious mistakes that has cost more lives.

 

[barfo]

I am saying that all of these decisions have impacts that can cause a lot of death and the people saying, "shut it all down". You can be upset that more wasn't done for stockpiles of PPE or the bluster and lack of planning involved by all levels of government and I get that. I am just also of the opinion that it's not nearly as "easy" of a call as people are making it out to be and that risk in all directions was human lives.
I never once said don't take preventative measures, or getting out in front of things is bad, just that, that has risks too.
Trumps trying to make himself into a war-time president (he's not), but let's use an analogy. People were scared Trump would start WW3 that was brought up numerous times in 2016.
What if these same advisors and intel told him hey X country is going to attack us we need to attack them and make sure if a war is fought, it's on someone else's soil. If he, "got out in front" of that people would lose their minds that he was trying to start a war, they'd be trying to take away the credibility of that intelligence, and the advisors who gave it to him. If he does nothing and that country does attack and it costs a lot of American lives he's also got people upset at him.

All of these decisions at a time like this cost people their lives and certainly Trump and all of them have handled it poorly, or differently then I would have, I just don't get why people have such a hard time acknowledging that people can and will die prematurely from just about any action. It's brutal and I hate it but it's almost like running a cost-benefit analysis with human lives. With China's numbers being something they probably couldn't trust, and modeling being all over the place there are just a lot of hard decisions that need to be made. Did he perform poorly IMO yes. I just find this to be a much more complex situation than in February or early March, saying you're under martial law till June guys deal with it, which I have read people saying that should have been his plan...

I understand your point about the side-effects of isolation. However, I don't think manufacturing enough PPE and tests and distributing them appropriately would have killed a single person. There's just no argument against doing, and no excuse for not doing, those things.

barfo

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I understand your point about the side-effects of isolation. However, I don't think manufacturing enough PPE and tests and distributing them appropriately would have killed a single person. There's just no argument against doing, and no excuse for not doing, those things.

barfo

Agreed they should been way more prepared and had plans in place to get equipment manufactured and out to those who need it in a more timely manner.

I have nothing but word of mouth I havent been able to substantiate this, but I was told Obama used up a lot of the nations supply, and didnt restock it, and then Trump continued to not get backup supply during his tenure. Its clear that whatever Obama did or didnt do, Trump and his administration should have had PPE surplus in case something like this happened.

 

[barfo]

Agreed they should been way more prepared and had plans in place to get equipment manufactured and out to those who need it in a more timely manner.

I have nothing but word of mouth I havent been able to substantiate this, but I was told Obama used up a lot of the nations supply, and didnt restock it, and then Trump continued to not get backup supply during his tenure. Its clear that whatever Obama did or didnt do, Trump and his administration should have had PPE surplus in case something like this happened.

Even if there was no stockpile at all, there was plenty of time to make supplies after we knew the virus was coming, had the government ordered it to happen.

barfo

 

[wizenheimer]

I am not at all saying we can't criticize Trump, if I was in charge I believe I would've handled this much differently than he did, but I don't know if they would have been better or not.

as andalusian pointed out, we actually have real examples of leadership reactions to compare to what trump did. We don't need to rely on the 'who-knows-who-would-have-done-better' myths basically designed to mitigate blame for trump

just look at the 'left' coast and compare their curves to the US

United States:



https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

*************************************

California:



https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/california
***************************************************************************
Oregon:




https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/oregon
**********************

Washington:



https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/washington
*************************************

none of it is good news, obviously. But just as obvious is that quick reactions by leadership to the advice of epidemiologists and doctors and modeling based upon past pandemics can mitigate impacts to the spread of the virus

Washington and California were in the shit early, but their governors were also the first to implement statewide action designed to slow the spread. Kate Brown gets a lot of ridicule, much of it deserved, but Oregon wasn't really into the shit nearly as much as the other two states when she took action, and look at Oregon's projections

IMO, it isn't just about leadership either. The majority of people on the left coast don't hate government and don't believe government is always wrong about things. We tend to believe in functioning government and that it has the welfare of everybody in mind. So when a governor declares and emergency and sets guidelines for behavior, we'll tend to follow those guidelines. There is strength in being informed and feeling invested in government. That is the polar opposite of the ignorant hateful fox news universe.

in other words, we deserve some of the credit here, not just the governors

I'll make a prediction, but it really doesn't take much smarts to make it. In fact, I knew exactly what trump was angling for a couple of weeks ago when he started throwing around the 100.000-240,000 deaths numbers, with an occasional mention of 2.2 million deaths. He was laying the groundwork to claim credit when the deaths fall below those numbers, and of course, he's already doing it.

but go back to California for instance: if the US has 200,000 deaths, then California's share of those deaths would be 24,000-25,000. But that model projects California to have 1,600 deaths by August 4. And trump did nothing to drop that number from 25,000 to 1,600. But of course he'll try and take credit for it, and some people will be dumb enough to believe him

meanwhile, California and Oregon are shipping ventilators to the east coast because of their mitigation efforts. That's despite trump, not because of him