Politics Trump Owns Stock in Company that produces Hydroxycloroquine

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Even if there was no stockpile at all, there was plenty of time to make supplies after we knew the virus was coming, had the government ordered it to happen.

barfo

I don't know. I've been involved with Manufacturing for years and helping to automate processes and all that. It is a lot of work to do change over of assembly lines get supply lines in place and all that. They definitely could have done better there, but it's not as if someone makes a phone call and a day later you have PPE everywhere. In say a month or two in January could they have gotten stuff done, no doubt about that.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

as andalusian pointed out, we actually have real examples of leadership reactions to compare to what trump did. We don't need to rely on the 'who-knows-who-would-have-done-better' myths basically designed to mitigate blame for trump

just look at the 'left' coast and compare their curves to the US

United States:

View attachment 30662

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

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California:

View attachment 30661

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/california
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Oregon:

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https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/oregon
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Washington:

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https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/washington
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none of it is good news, obviously. But just as obvious is that quick reactions by leadership to the advice of epidemiologists and doctors and modeling based upon past pandemics can mitigate impacts to the spread of the virus

Washington and California were in the shit early, but their governors were also the first to implement statewide action designed to slow the spread. Kate Brown gets a lot of ridicule, much of it deserved, but Oregon wasn't really into the shit nearly as much as the other two states when she took action, and look at Oregon's projections

IMO, it isn't just about leadership either. The majority of people on the left coast don't hate government and don't believe government is always wrong about things. We tend to believe in functioning government and that it has the welfare of everybody in mind. So when a governor declares and emergency and sets guidelines for behavior, we'll tend to follow those guidelines. There is strength in being informed and feeling invested in government. That is the polar opposite of the ignorant hateful fox news universe.

in other words, we deserve some of the credit here, not just the governors

I'll make a prediction, but it really doesn't take much smarts to make it. In fact, I knew exactly what trump was angling for a couple of weeks ago when he started throwing around the 100.000-240,000 deaths numbers, with an occasional mention of 2.2 million deaths. He was laying the groundwork to claim credit when the deaths fall below those numbers, and of course, he's already doing it.

but go back to California for instance: if the US has 200,000 deaths, then California's share of those deaths would be 24,000-25,000. But that model projects California to have 1,600 deaths by August 4. And trump did nothing to drop that number from 25,000 to 1,600. But of course he'll try and take credit for it, and some people will be dumb enough to believe him

meanwhile, California and Oregon are shipping ventilators to the east coast because of their mitigation efforts. That's despite trump, not because of him

You're leaving out some variables here though. California has a massive population but it's way more spread out then say NYC. New York City btw is very "blue" in their voting so I don't think we can say they "hate their government". Geography as well since California is a warm climate compared to the Northeast. I didn't claim that they couldn't have done better but you failed to actually address my point, that we don't know if the measures taken on the west coast will have devastating effects to human life or not. I pointed out that Heart-disease, Diabetes, suicide, etc are all dangers of this stay-at-home type orders and that those factors should at least be considered when making those decisions. It may and probably has slowed the spread of COVID19, but will the measures cause other deaths? I think the answer is yes, now which one will cause more deaths is the question IMO.

I think the best answer to this would have been in late February / Early March for a stay at home nationwide order except (essential personnel) - also they need to do a better job of determining what jobs are essential. Spell out here are the milestones we're looking at to get back going, this is the type of things we want to see before we determine how to rolls back the restrictions on travel, movement, commerce, etc. Also using whatever resources they have to get PPE to hotspots, and get tests out.

 

[CupWizier]

Agreed they should been way more prepared and had plans in place to get equipment manufactured and out to those who need it in a more timely manner.

I have nothing but word of mouth I havent been able to substantiate this, but I was told Obama used up a lot of the nations supply, and didnt restock it, and then Trump continued to not get backup supply during his tenure. Its clear that whatever Obama did or didnt do, Trump and his administration should have had PPE surplus in case something like this happened.

That's trump spin as he also claimed that the military had NO ammunition as well and I don't believe it was "bare" like he claimed. Same with the coronavirus equilment needed. He has lied so much that it's hard to take anything he says (especially when he passes blame to previous administrations) as he's better at pointing the finger and blame than actually making decisions to alleviate the issue. If it was depleted he had over 3 years to replenish it but didn't.

 

[barfo]

I don't know. I've been involved with Manufacturing for years and helping to automate processes and all that. It is a lot of work to do change over of assembly lines get supply lines in place and all that. They definitely could have done better there, but it's not as if someone makes a phone call and a day later you have PPE everywhere. In say a month or two in January could they have gotten stuff done, no doubt about that.

That's pretty much exactly what I said. They had a month or two, they squandered it.

barfo

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

That's pretty much exactly what I said. They had a month or two, they squandered it.

barfo

I basically agreed. Wanna fight about it?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

That's trump spin as he also claimed that the military had NO ammunition as well and I don't believe it was "bare" like he claimed. Same with the coronavirus equilment needed. He has lied so much that it's hard to take anything he says (especially when he passes blame to previous administrations) as he's better at pointing the finger and blame than actually making decisions to alleviate the issue. If it was depleted he had over 3 years to replenish it but didn't.

As I said, I haven't substantiated it. I don't know. I don't really watch network TV, and haven't watched a single one of his press-conferences in a few weeks. I just read the cliff notes version. I don't really care what he has to say about it, as I wouldn't put any stock into it anyways.

 

[barfo]

I basically agreed. Wanna fight about it?

Mt. Tabor, dawn, cap pistols.

barfo

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Mt. Tabor, dawn, cap pistols.

barfo

As long as you keep your social distance.

 

[wizenheimer]

You're leaving out some variables here though. California has a massive population but it's way more spread out then say NYC. New York City btw is very "blue" in their voting so I don't think we can say they "hate their government". Geography as well since California is a warm climate compared to the Northeast.

of course there are variables. California and Florida are very similar in climate and urban density so those two big variables cancel leaving the biggest variables being government mandates. They are on much different curves right now and we know Florida's governor is a trump sock puppet. Louisiana has a warm climate too. Also, it's not like people are crowding the beaches of Oregon and Washington for swimming and working on tans right now. There has been no "hot month" mitigation" in the Pacific Northwest yet

mainly, I was going after the implication that "we just don't know" if somebody other than trump would have done better. That's easily refuted by looking at states, governors, the actions they've taken, and the results to this point

I didn't claim that they couldn't have done better but you failed to actually address my point, that we don't know if the measures taken on the west coast will have devastating effects to human life or not. I pointed out that Heart-disease, Diabetes, suicide, etc are all dangers of this stay-at-home type orders and that those factors should at least be considered when making those decisions. It may and probably has slowed the spread of COVID19, but will the measures cause other deaths? I think the answer is yes, now which one will cause more deaths is the question IMO.

you're right, I didn't address it. But that's because I think it's a poor theory. And I think not taking actions we know can mitigate COVID because other things might get a little worse would be really bad policy...sorry.

To start with, where is your evidence that heart disease and diabetes will get worse? And that they would get worse because of stay-at-home orders or because bars are closed? I can certainly see more people dying from other things because the health care system is so overloaded, but that's a reason for more restrictions, not less.

as for suicide, maybe, but again, there's little evidence. The stock market would have collapsed if we were heading for 2 million deaths, so the people that would be rocketing out windows because of losing their IRA's would do it either way. With 2 million deaths there would definitely be more suicides as spouses and family members pulled the plugs on themselves in their grief.

in fact, it's those very measures you're criticizing that are starting to inject a little hopeful news into the situation. As curves flatten and cities drop onto the downhill slope off the crests of those curves, light begins to glimmer at the end of the tunnel. Heading toward 2 million deaths right now with the total collapse of the health care system would generate massive hopelessness...and that would increase suicide. This what-if future you want to argue can head a different direction with a more realistic set of what-if's, or at least with more complete context

you're making a trump/fox-news argument when you try and criticize current mitigation measures with the suicide card. It's a really bad argument IMO

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

of course there are variables. California and Florida are very similar in climate and urban density so those two big variables cancel leaving the biggest variables being government mandates. They are on much different curves right now and we know Florida's governor is a trump sock puppet. Louisiana has a warm climate too. Also, it's not like people are crowding the beaches of Oregon and Washington for swimming and working on tans right now. There has been no "hot month" mitigation" in the Pacific Northwest yet

mainly, I was going after the implication that "we just don't know" if somebody other than trump would have done better. That's easily refuted by looking at states, governors, the actions they've taken, and the results to this point



you're right, I didn't address it. But that's because I think it's a poor theory. And I think not taking actions we know can mitigate COVID because other things might get a little worse would be really bad policy...sorry.

To start with, where is your evidence that heart disease and diabetes will get worse? And that they would get worse because of stay-at-home orders or because bars are closed? I can certainly see more people dying from other things because the health care system is so overloaded, but that's a reason for more restrictions, not less.

as for suicide, maybe, but again, there's little evidence. The stock market would have collapsed if we were heading for 2 million deaths, so the people that would be rocketing out windows because of losing their IRA's would do it either way. With 2 million deaths there would definitely be more suicides as spouses and family members pulled the plugs on themselves in their grief.

in fact, it's those very measures you're criticizing that are starting to inject a little hopeful news into the situation. As curves flatten and cities drop onto the downhill slope off the crests of those curves, light begins to glimmer at the end of the tunnel. Heading toward 2 million deaths right now with the total collapse of the health care system would generate massive hopelessness...and that would increase suicide. This what-if future you want to argue can head a different direction with a more realistic set of what-if's, or at least with more complete context

you're making a trump/fox-news argument when you try and criticize current mitigation measures with the suicide card. It's a really bad argument IMO

Are you not using the same what / if card when you shut down things down, by saying what if we don't. It is literally all guesswork, that's why the models are off every day. You have no way of gauging if they will get a little worse or a lot worse, you're saying they might get a little worse is your own theory and "what if" scenario. The point is there are a lot of factors to making these decisions.

I am not criticizing those measures though and this is why it's so hard to actually have conversations, I am questioning them, and saying yes I do in fact have questions that I don't believe you or anyone else are really answering. Somehow questioning things and saying well let's look at this from other angles, Is Fox News / Trump arguments (which I don't watch either so whatever). Of course, there are multiple factors and what-if's we do this or that, and they all need to be weighed IMO.

How is it unrealistic to say stay-at-home orders can contribute to deaths from Heart Disease, suicide, Diabetes, etc. When literally sedimentary lifestyles are KNOWN contributors to all of those things.

I could just excuse your post and thoughts away by just saying you're just making a CNN argument or some crap too, but I'm not.

 

[Minstrel]

How is it unrealistic to say stay-at-home orders can contribute to deaths from Heart Disease, suicide, Diabetes, etc. When literally sedimentary lifestyles are KNOWN contributors to all of those things.

None of the "shelter in place" orders I've seen (certainly not the California one) prevent people from going outside to exercise. They're just not supposed to go out and meet other people, gather or go to businesses unless it's essential. In California, people have been encouraged to go outside to walk or jog. Exercise and overall fitness is helpful during an epidemic/pandemic.

Anyone who had a mind to exercise before this order is still perfectly capable of doing so. They don't have to sit indoors all day every day.

 

[wizenheimer]

Are you not using the same what / if card when you shut down things down, by saying what if we don't. It is literally all guesswork, that's why the models are off every day. You have no way of gauging if they will get a little worse or a lot worse, you're saying they might get a little worse is your own theory and "what if" scenario. The point is there are a lot of factors to making these decisions.

I am not criticizing those measures though and this is why it's so hard to actually have conversations, I am questioning them, and saying yes I do in fact have questions that I don't believe you or anyone else are really answering. Somehow questioning things and saying well let's look at this from other angles, Is Fox News / Trump arguments (which I don't watch either so whatever). Of course, there are multiple factors and what-if's we do this or that, and they all need to be weighed IMO.

How is it unrealistic to say stay-at-home orders can contribute to deaths from Heart Disease, suicide, Diabetes, etc. When literally sedimentary lifestyles are KNOWN contributors to all of those things.

I could just excuse your post and thoughts away by just saying you're just making a CNN argument or some crap too, but I'm not.

trump brought up suicides and he did so in order to attack the stay at home orders and the closing of businesses. Remember when he wanted to open things up by Easter? so yeah, when you keep mentioning suicide I see a connection to what trump did, but if that offends you, then sorry, I'll withdraw it

and for chrissakes, the stay-at-home orders are not 'sit-on-your-fat-ass-all-day-long' orders. People are walking all over neighborhoods and city blocks and sidewalks and parks. They can do jumping-jacks and calisthenics in their living rooms. If they have stairs they have a stair-master. There are literally millions of sources for exercise at home routines and millions of ways to get cardio workouts. The sedentary lifestyle criticism against stay at home orders...excuse me, question about stay at home orders is hollow in my view

a person that will be a slug at home will be so, with or without stay at home orders. People, even people with health conditions, have some level of responsibility for their own lives, and part of that responsibility is adapting to circumstance

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

trump brought up suicides and he did so in order to attack the stay at home orders and the closing of businesses. Remember when he wanted to open things up by Easter? so yeah, when you keep mentioning suicide I see a connection to what trump did, but if that offends you, then sorry, I'll withdraw it

and for chrissakes, the stay-at-home orders are not 'sit-on-your-fat-ass-all-day-long' orders. People are walking all over neighborhoods and city blocks and sidewalks and parks. They can do jumping-jacks and calisthenics in their living rooms. If they have stairs they have a stair-master. There are literally millions of sources for exercise at home routines and millions of ways to get cardio workouts. The sedentary lifestyle criticism against stay at home orders...excuse me, question about stay at home orders is hollow in my view

a person that will be a slug at home will be so, with or without stay at home orders. People, even people with health conditions, have some level of responsibility for their own lives, and part of that responsibility is adapting to circumstance

I've seen more flabby bellied guys jogging in the last couple of weeks than I ever have.

I'd join them if my knees weren't destroyed.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

trump brought up suicides and he did so in order to attack the stay at home orders and the closing of businesses. Remember when he wanted to open things up by Easter? so yeah, when you keep mentioning suicide I see a connection to what trump did, but if that offends you, then sorry, I'll withdraw it

and for chrissakes, the stay-at-home orders are not 'sit-on-your-fat-ass-all-day-long' orders. People are walking all over neighborhoods and city blocks and sidewalks and parks. They can do jumping-jacks and calisthenics in their living rooms. If they have stairs they have a stair-master. There are literally millions of sources for exercise at home routines and millions of ways to get cardio workouts. The sedentary lifestyle criticism against stay at home orders...excuse me, question about stay at home orders is hollow in my view

a person that will be a slug at home will be so, with or without a stay at home orders. People, even people with health conditions, have some level of responsibility for their own lives, and part of that responsibility is adapting to circumstance

Yet you find people here and all over the place complaining like crazy that people are going outside, and saying we should all be staying inside. How many people just on this site or saying, "stay inside, stay inside". It is a lot more difficult to get a good work out in, at a one-bedroom apartment than at a gym or a basketball court. My "criticism" if you want to call it that, is that it is definitely possible to take it further and people want to, to which I think that's dangerous.

I'm way more likely to exercise well out of the house than in it.

All I'm saying is that there are other dangers involved in these decisions IMO if you believe there isn't then fine. If there aren't any negative effects to it, why don't they just indefinitely shut down all non-essential businesses, and have stay at home orders and social distancing from now on? We all carry virus' with us all the time that going to restaurants, the gyms, basketball games, etc, etc we can spread, and kill people.

 

[e_blazer]

None of the "shelter in place" orders I've seen (certainly not the California one) prevent people from going outside to exercise. They're just not supposed to go out and meet other people, gather or go to businesses unless it's essential. In California, people have been encouraged to go outside to walk or jog. Exercise and overall fitness is helpful during an epidemic/pandemic.

Anyone who had a mind to exercise before this order is still perfectly capable of doing so. They don't have to sit indoors all day every day.

My wife and I get out for brisk walks 2-3 times a day. It takes some zigging and zagging back and forth across our streets and walking paths in order to maintain a minimum of 6' of separation. We try for more like 20', but sometimes that's not feasible. I suspect that if I had some footage shot overhead from a drone it would kind of resemble a game of Frogger.

 

[Minstrel]

If there aren't any negative effects to it, why don't they just indefinitely shut down all non-essential businesses, and have stay at home orders and social distancing from now on? We all carry virus' with us all the time that going to restaurants, the gyms, basketball games, etc, etc we can spread, and kill people.

There are obviously negative economic consequences that make this unsustainable forever. Whether there are negative consequences to heart disease and diabetes is a lot more questionable.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

There are obviously negative economic consequences that make this unsustainable forever. Whether there are negative consequences to heart disease and diabetes is a lot more questionable.

what...?
Do you mean whether stay at home orders have negative consequences to heart disease and diabetes?

 

[Minstrel]

what...?
Do you mean whether stay at home orders have negative consequences to heart disease and diabetes?

Yes, whether "don't go out to meet people but do go out to exercise by yourself" orders have negative consequences to heart disease and diabetes.

 

[crandc]

Two brief points

1. I wrote clinical study protocols. That was my job. There have been no completed clinical study protocols for Hydroxychloroquine. Due to lack of testing we can't even be sure everyone supposedly treated in this anecdote had COVID-19. And since about 80 percent recover without hospitalization, with no control group no way to tell if it worked better than placebo. Reports are some people were taken off drug when they became too sick or developed serious adverse effects, and those people just weren't counted. Absolutely unscientific if true.

2. Trump cares for two things, his ego and his wealth. He might make money from Hydroxychloroquine but most of all he wants to proclaim himself as the man who saved Americans from the foreign virus. He is completely ignorant, even suggested antibiotics (they don't work for viruses!) in his desperate effort to be seen as savior.

 

[Lanny]

There are things he (or anyone) could have improved on, especially with hindsight. There are things he has done well. I enjoy my conversations with people who have enough of an open mind to see some of both.

Enjoy....

I'm sorry you can't see what I see that's happening.

 

[Lanny]

I don't get how many of his followers can still support him...I mean WTF does it take for the light bulb to finally turn on? I can understand GOP members not wanting anyone with far left views but how they choose to follow THIS particular malignant dwarf of a human being is mind-numbing...geeez, get someone else...hell, I might even vote for them myself.

Yes, WTF does it take? Murdering someone on Fifth Avenue? What?

 

[Lanny]

Two brief points

1. I wrote clinical study protocols. That was my job. There have been no completed clinical study protocols for Hydroxychloroquine. Due to lack of testing we can't even be sure everyone supposedly treated in this anecdote had COVID-19. And since about 80 percent recover without hospitalization, with no control group no way to tell if it worked better than placebo. Reports are some people were taken off drug when they became too sick or developed serious adverse effects, and those people just weren't counted. Absolutely unscientific if true.

2. Trump cares for two things, his ego and his wealth. He might make money from Hydroxychloroquine but most of all he wants to proclaim himself as the man who saved Americans from the foreign virus. He is completely ignorant, even suggested antibiotics (they don't work for viruses!) in his desperate effort to be seen as savior.

Antibiotics? Are you kidding me? I knew he was dumb. I knew he was incredibly dumb, but I had no idea that he was that dumb. This is positive proof that he has someone to help him get dressed because I believe he'd get his shoes on the wrong feet and not be able to tie the shoe laces. This guy is somewhere below an IQ level of 70. 100 is average.
He didn't need to make out a false claim of bone spurs. The military won't take anyone with an IQ lower than 70. He could relax and have sex with all the loose women he wanted by providing the cash. Then he's only worry would be catching VD and not a bullet like the rest of us had to dodge. The Son of a Bitch.

 

[crandc]

Antibiotics? Are you kidding me? I knew he was dumb. I knew he was incredibly dumb, but I had no idea that he was that dumb. This is positive proof that he has someone to help him get dressed because I believe he'd get his shoes on the wrong feet and not be able to tie the shoe laces. This guy is somewhere below an IQ level of 70. 100 is average.
He didn't need to make out a false claim of bone spurs. The military won't take anyone with an IQ lower than 70. He could relax and have sex with all the loose women he wanted by providing the cash. Then he's only worry would be catching VD and not a bullet like the rest of us had to dodge. The Son of a Bitch.

Trump just tweeted that this is a very smart virus, it even outsmarted antibiotics.

Honestly not a Saturday Night Live skit.

 

[TBpup]

I'm sorry you can't see what I see that's happening.

That's the thing. I see both sides. Just not 100% for or anti either one. It's called objectivity.

 

[TBpup]

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/hy...ycin-for-covid-19-new-clinical-trial-results/
Hydroxychloroquine /azithromycin for COVID-19: New Clinical Trial Results

This forwarded to me from a Doctor:

From a French study (of course small and early, but encouraging results) regarding the use of hydroxychlorowquine, hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin, and a control group. For those who don't like it, yell at the French doctors instead of me. All heck, yell at me if that's what it takes to make you feel better.

 

[Lanny]

That's the thing. I see both sides. Just not 100% for or anti either one. It's called objectivity.

No, it's called wearing your blinders.
If you lived in WWII Germany would you be saying that the Nazis and the Jews both had good points? No, the Nazis insisted on their blinders.

 

[magnifier661]

I would be more concerned on why so many are against a drug that has been vetted since the 50s, that’s cheap, and only requires a 5 day therapeutic treatment of 400-600mg per day.

My theory is 2 parts. 1.) TDS is real, 2.) Big Pharma would lose trillions if this treatment is successful.

 

[Orion Bailey]

This thread takes the cake. news comes out that Trump cant really profit off of the amount he owns and it doesn't have a patent.

But yet. Those who post this info, and stick to the facts are called trump apologists...


The epidome of what is wrong with so many things. ..

Soooo many closed minds to rational thought and common sense. The incredible ability to tie one thing to another with nothing but imagination holding it together....

 

[Orion Bailey]

I would be more concerned on why so many are against a drug that has been vetted since the 50s, that’s cheap, and only requires a 5 day therapeutic treatment of 400-600mg per day.

My theory is 2 parts. 1.) TDS is real, 2.) Big Pharma would lose trillions if this treatment is successful.

HOLY SHIT!!! I spotted him first!!!!!

A SUPER RARE Mags Sighting!!!!!

@SlyPokerDog Ad me to the S2 Record books. I spotted him first!

 

[magnifier661]

HOLY SHIT!!! I spotted him first!!!!!

A SUPER RARE Mags Sighting!!!!!

@SlyPokerDog Ad me to the S2 Record books. I spotted him first!

Lol hey buddy. You can thank Marazul. His email chain got me to check OT out.