Politics TRUMP VOWS CONTINUED FIGHT IN AFGHANISTAN; REVERSING STANCE

[riverman]

It will take time for Trump to build a wall around Afghanistan and make Pakistan pay for it

 

[Denny Crane]

The reality is that no President wants to engage in "nation building," because that carries a responsibility that isn't appropriate to either side (not to mention the costs) but every President, dealing with existing conflict (or in Bush's case, conflict thrust upon him), is forced to engage in some amount simply out of expedience (and, sometimes, because it's the right thing to do as Sly alludes to above).

The reality is that you don't know the reality of it.

W's Mission Accomplished was the start of Nation Building. When the decision was made to take out Saddam, Colin Powell said, "you break it, you own it."

 

[Denny Crane]

The answers are (a) we aren't ever leaving, or (b) when we leave all hell will break loose. Take your pick.

I kind of think since Trump admires Nixon, he's going to try to do what Nixon did in Vietnam. Drop a lot of bombs, kill a lot of people, declare 'peace with honor' and leave.

barfo

Vietnam is now an ally.

How'd that work out?

 

[barfo]

Vietnam is now an ally.

How'd that work out?

Fine, although it probably would have been a lot more fine if we'd never gone in the first place.

I'm not arguing myself for (or against) staying in Afghanistan. I was just trying to predict what Trump might do.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

So, as I understood Trump's speech last night, he's saying that he had to reconsider his campaign promise to pull our troops out of Afghanistan primarily because doing so would open the country up to the Taliban and other terrorist organizations using it as a staging ground for future attacks on the US. He also says that we're not going to engage in nation-building. What I don't get is if the existing Afghani government is too wobbly that it can't be trusted to provide defense against future terrorist bases, and if we're not engaging in nation-building, what's going to be different in X number of years that will provide for security against terrorists using Afghanistan as a base? I get that we're going to unleash the military and we're going to be into WINNING, but does anyone really think that means eradicating the Taliban and other terrorists to such a degree that they won't rebuild as soon as we leave?

Eradicating the Taliban isn't the only solution. 17 years and our military (and NATO, too) haven't accomplished that. We don't even control 1/2 of Afghanistan.

This kind of thing won the peace in Iraq until we allowed the Iraq government to break the treaties and alliances (and worse).

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/22/white-house-opens-door-peace-talks-taliban/

White House opens door to peace talks with the Taliban

The Trump White House is entertaining the possibility of officially backing Afghan-led peace talks with the Taliban, as a way to bring the longest war in American history to a close.

Mr. Trump alluded to Washington’s overt support for negotiations with the Taliban, and their potential political role in a postwar Afghanistan, as part of the administration’s new Afghan strategy unveiled during a prime-time address to the nation Monday night.

“Someday, after an effective military effort, perhaps it will be possible to have a political settlement that includes elements of the Taliban in Afghanistan,” Mr. Trump told the crowd of U.S. service members gathered at Fort Meyer in Arlington, Virginia.

“But nobody knows if or when that will ever happen,” the commander in chief added.

 

[Denny Crane]

Fine, although it probably would have been a lot more fine if we'd never gone in the first place.

I'm not arguing myself for (or against) staying in Afghanistan. I was just trying to predict what Trump might do.

barfo

Your kind got us into that mess.

If I were to predict what Trump is doing, I'd guess he does have some sort of benchmark about if we're succeeding in Afghanistan, and that the generals he's empowered know they have to show some sort of new successes.

 

[barfo]

The enemy can wait it out, instead of trying to make it painful for us to remain. I don't call that emboldening anyone, but it does save them from a bloody fight.

We're still in harm's way, and we're still bombing civilian weddings.

If the enemy is waiting rather than fighting, we aren't in harm's way. And we don't have to bomb weddings, that's strictly optional.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

If the enemy is waiting rather than fighting, we aren't in harm's way. And we don't have to bomb weddings, that's strictly optional.

barfo

If they can take pot shots at us, they will. If they can plant IEDs, they will.

They're just not going to try for some large scale assault.

 

[barfo]

Your kind got us into that mess.

If I were to predict what Trump is doing, I'd guess he does have some sort of benchmark about if we're succeeding in Afghanistan, and that the generals he's empowered know they have to show some sort of new successes.

Yes, I heard about the benchmark. Apparently McMaster showed him a photo of Afghan girls in miniskirts back in the early 70s.

Well, not what I think of as miniskirts, but close enough for Trump I guess.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You mean the same ally that sold Making Nuclear Weapons for Dummies books to North Korea and Iran? The same ally that supports the Taliban?

Hell of an ally to have.

You'd rather we go to war against Pakistan?

All that's going to do is destabilize a nuclear power where we know a lot of terrorists live.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, I heard about the benchmark. Apparently McMaster showed him a photo of Afghan girls in miniskirts back in the early 70s.

barfo

Don't quit your day job.

 

[barfo]

White House opens door to peace talks with the Taliban

The Trump White House is entertaining the possibility of officially backing Afghan-led peace talks with the Taliban, as a way to bring the longest war in American history to a close.

Mr. Trump alluded to Washington’s overt support for negotiations with the Taliban, and their potential political role in a postwar Afghanistan, as part of the administration’s new Afghan strategy unveiled during a prime-time address to the nation Monday night.

“Someday, after an effective military effort, perhaps it will be possible to have a political settlement that includes elements of the Taliban in Afghanistan,” Mr. Trump told the crowd of U.S. service members gathered at Fort Meyer in Arlington, Virginia.

I think you would have called that 'surrender' if Obama had said it.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

So Trump has super secret benchmarks that he'll use to declare victory after we maybe hit them.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think you would have called that 'surrender' if Obama had said it.

barfo

A treaty isn't surrender.

 

[Minstrel]

The reality is that you don't know the reality of it.

W's Mission Accomplished was the start of Nation Building. When the decision was made to take out Saddam, Colin Powell said, "you break it, you own it."

Thanks for completely agreeing with me. I know it was painful for you.

 

[Denny Crane]

Thanks for completely agreeing with me. I know it was painful for you.

Agree with you about what?

That presidents do want to do nation building?

Like Obama did in Libya? Bush in Iraq?

Wow, you and the neocons are like minded.

 

[Minstrel]

Agree with you about what?

That presidents do want to do nation building?

Like Obama did in Libya? Bush in Iraq?

They don't want to, which is all of them have campaigned on not doing it. Then they discover the reality and find that they have to do some amount of it. That's what Colin Powell's comment means. You can't just fight in a conflict and then leave without doing some amount of nation building, regardless of whether you want to or not.

 

[Denny Crane]

They don't want to, which is all of them have campaigned on not doing it. Then they discover the reality and find that they have to do some amount of it. That's what Colin Powell's comment means. You can't just fight in a conflict and then leave without doing some amount of nation building, regardless of whether you want to or not.

If they didn't want to, they wouldn't do it. What they do is everything, not what they say.

Just as Trump said he'd get us out of Afghanistan, his actions are we're staying.

The neocons absolutely wanted to nation build. Their policy idea was that a democratic Iraq would spread democracy throughout the Middle East.

I'll play your game.

You want us to go to war everywhere we can.

See how that works?

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/7/bush-a-convert-to-nation-building/

Almost eight years later, U.S. interagency “provincial reconstruction teams” are trying to rebuild the economy and government in Afghanistan and Iraq. The U.S. Army’s just-revised field manual puts military post-conflict “stability operations” on a par with fighting wars. And the State Department’s new Office of Reconstruction and Stabilization is recruiting an elite Civilian Reserve Corps of specialists — engineers, judges, prison wardens, health experts and city planners — to deploy to failed states in a crisis in as little as 48 hours.

And none of the leading candidates to succeed Mr. Bush seems likely to reverse course.

“They don’t typically use the term, but the Bush administration has clearly embraced the idea of nation building with the fervor of a convert,” said James Dobbins, special envoy in the Clinton administration to a string of failed states, from Somalia to Haiti, and Mr. Bush’s first special envoy to Afghanistan after the 2001-02 military campaign.

“After Iraq, the main Democratic criticism has been not that we shouldn’t do nation building, but that we should do it better the next time we try,” he said.

 

[barfo]

A treaty isn't surrender.

I accept your treaty signature, then.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

I'm beginning to think that negotiating a treaty with the Taliban is a piece of cake compared to establishing peace in the S2 OT forum.

 

[Minstrel]

If they didn't want to, they wouldn't do it.

Practical realities override preferences. You may want to buy a mid-life crisis sports car, but realize that the reality is that you need that money for your mortgage. Not buying the car doesn't mean you didn't want it.

 

[Denny Crane]

More from the previous link:

Democratic hopefuls Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton have savaged the Bush administration’s record in Iraq and have promised to begin bringing home U.S. troops as soon as they take office.

But neither candidate has repudiated the larger idea of nation building — that U.S. security interests demand an active program to shore up governments and “build capacity” in failed or failing states around the world.

Mr. Obama has promised to create his own “civilian corps” to operate in “post-conflict, humanitarian and stabilization efforts around the globe.”

A campaign position paper states: “Barack Obama believes that strengthening weak states at risk of collapse, economic meltdown or public health crises strengthens America’s security. Obama will double U.S. spending on foreign aid to $50 billion a year by 2012.”

Susan Rice, a top State Department official in the Clinton administration and now a senior foreign policy adviser to Mr. Obama, recently proposed a greatly expanded effort by civilian U.S. government agencies to help the military “revive fragile and war-torn states.”

“Beyond boots on the ground, we need the wingtips and Birkenstocks of diplomatic and development professionals,” she wrote in an op-ed piece in The Washington Post.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm beginning to think that negotiating a treaty with the Taliban is a piece of cake compared to establishing peace in the S2 OT forum.

We have an extremist insurgency named Lenny. I mean, Denny.

 

[Denny Crane]

Practical realities override preferences. You may want to buy a mid-life crisis sports car, but realize that the reality is that you need that money for your mortgage. Not buying the car doesn't mean you didn't want it.

Either spend the money on the 26,000 contractors in Afghanistan rebuilding the country, or you don't.

They never had a country, to speak of, in the first place. Nothing to actually "rebuild."

Bill Clinton went about nation building in Kosovo. McCain supported the idea.

The only candidate in 2012 who opposed nation building for real was Ron Paul, of course.

 

[barfo]

More from the previous link:

Democratic hopefuls Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton have savaged the Bush administration’s record in Iraq and have promised to begin bringing home U.S. troops as soon as they take office.

But neither candidate has repudiated the larger idea of nation building — that U.S. security interests demand an active program to shore up governments and “build capacity” in failed or failing states around the world.

Mr. Obama has promised to create his own “civilian corps” to operate in “post-conflict, humanitarian and stabilization efforts around the globe.”

A campaign position paper states: “Barack Obama believes that strengthening weak states at risk of collapse, economic meltdown or public health crises strengthens America’s security. Obama will double U.S. spending on foreign aid to $50 billion a year by 2012.”

Susan Rice, a top State Department official in the Clinton administration and now a senior foreign policy adviser to Mr. Obama, recently proposed a greatly expanded effort by civilian U.S. government agencies to help the military “revive fragile and war-torn states.”

“Beyond boots on the ground, we need the wingtips and Birkenstocks of diplomatic and development professionals,” she wrote in an op-ed piece in The Washington Post.

So, Obama came into office with the idea of improving Afghanistan, but ended up fighting the war there instead.
Trump came into office with the idea of withdrawing entirely from Afghanistan, but ended up fighting the war there instead.

You can't always get what you want... unless what you want is war.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

So, Obama came into office with the idea of improving Afghanistan, but ended up fighting the war there instead.
Trump came into office with the idea of withdrawing entirely from Afghanistan, but ended up fighting the war there instead.

You can't always get what you want... unless what you want is war.

barfo

One of us said he wanted this war over yesterday.

What does that say about you?

Obama came into office wanting to massively spend on nation building. Not just in Afghanistan.

Hundreds of $billions.

 

[barfo]

One of us said he wanted this war over yesterday.

What does that say about you?

That I'm more realistic about the prospects for peace in Afghanistan than you.

barfo

 

[riverman]

I'm beginning to think that negotiating a treaty with the Taliban is a piece of cake compared to establishing peace in the S2 OT forum.

It would go a long ways towards peace talks at S2 if some stopped referring to posters as your kind.... a very divisive opening to a post...

 

[SlyPokerDog]