Politics Turning GA, NC, NV, and/or PA into victory (Biden vs Trump, 2020 election!) (2 Viewers)

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magnifier661 said:
Okay, so this deal was done before he was president or even running for that matter. He only has a 30% stake, with controlling interest by Vornado. Everyone in 2012 was borrowing from China.

seems like a nothing burger to me. The Biden argument was he was Vice President when the Hunter deal was being made. Big difference.
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The point of that article wasn't nepotism or about misuse of political connections. It was that Trump having this much business in China complicates his claims that Biden would be too cozy with China. Here's another article making that same case.
 
Minstrel said:
The point of that article wasn't nepotism or about misuse of political connections. It was that Trump having this much business in China complicates his claims that Biden would be too cozy with China. Here's another article making that same case.
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That article links to the politico article, so my initial stance is the same. 2012 deal, with majority of corporations borrowing money from China banks during that time, only 30% stake in the company with controlling interest by another group.

In contrast, Biden’s son Hunter got his deal after he took a trip with Vice-President Biden (who was in charge of China relations).

It’s definitely apples to oranges comparison.
 
magnifier661 said:
That article links to the politico article, so my initial stance is the same. 2012 deal, with majority of corporations borrowing money from China banks during that time, only 30% stake in the company with controlling interest by another group.

In contrast, Biden’s son Hunter got his deal after he took a trip with Vice-President Biden (who was in charge of China relations).

It’s definitely apples to oranges comparison.
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The articles have nothing to do with whether Trump misused political connections or engaged in nepotism. It's not a comparison to the Hunter Biden thing. It's that Trump has been saying that Biden would be too cozy with China, and that claim has problems coming from a President who has engaged in so much business with and in China. Whether he was President at the time isn't relevant. This isn't alleging that Trump did something illegal, just that his ties to China make it unreasonable to claim that his opponent is the one who'll be "too close" with China.
 
magnifier661 said:
The argument that anyone but Trump doesn’t seem like a valid one imo. I mean I’m sure many are out there, but I wouldn’t say that’s a majority. I would say a good portion of Americans still pick Presidents based on their policies and how well they present how they can run the country.

I think if Biden is going to win, he must prove he can run the country at least no worse than Trump. I guess we can wait and see if he can actually sell that.
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FIFY
 
Minstrel said:
The articles have nothing to do with whether Trump misused political connections or engaged in nepotism. It's not a comparison to the Hunter Biden thing. It's that Trump has been saying that Biden would be too cozy with China, and that claim has problems coming from a President who has engaged in so much business with and in China. Whether he was President at the time isn't relevant. This isn't alleging that Trump did something illegal, just that his ties to China make it unreasonable to claim that his opponent is the one who'll be "too close" with China.
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His actions as president contradicts that claim. The sanctions alone have been deeply negatively impacting their economy.
 
magnifier661 said:
His actions as president contradicts that claim. The sanctions alone have been deeply negatively impacting their economy.
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If his actions as President show that his actions pre-Presidency didn't accurately illustrate how he'd be as President, doesn't that undercut his attacks on Biden's likeliness to be cozy with China?
 
Minstrel said:
If his actions as President show that his actions pre-Presidency didn't accurately illustrate how he'd be as President, doesn't that undercut his attacks on Biden's likeliness to be cozy with China?
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But as the article clearly states, he is a minority shareholder of that project. It wasn’t his decision where the money is being borrowed.
 
magnifier661 said:
But as the article clearly states, he is a minority shareholder of that project. It wasn’t his decision where the money is being borrowed.
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Sure, and Joe Biden doesn't have decision-making control over his son's international business dealings. The issue is whether they have ties to the country that would influence their approach to China. Whether Trump chose that loan or not, once that loan was secured, he had clear ties to China--just as Trump alleges that Biden has ties to China through his son's business.
 
Minstrel said:
Sure, and Joe Biden doesn't have decision-making control over his son's international business dealings. The issue is whether they have ties to the country that would influence their approach to China. Whether Trump chose that loan or not, once that loan was secured, he had clear ties to China--just as Trump alleges that Biden has ties to China through his son's business.
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Except, the deal happened when his Son flew to China with Biden, while Biden was in charge of China Policy, while using Air Force 2.

so comparing apples to apples, it would be like Don, Jr, flies to China with dad on Air Force 1, then after Don Jr closes a project from China.
 
magnifier661 said:
Except, the deal happened when his Son flew to China with Biden, while Biden was in charge of China Policy, while using Air Force 2.

so comparing apples to apples, it would be like Don, Jr, flies to China with dad on Air Force 1, then after Don Jr closes a project from China.
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Things don't have to be mirror images to be comparable. Nothing is ever an exact mirror image--the point is that Trump has his own ties to China while trying to claim that Biden has ties to China. It's not a good look. And Trump's ties are direct, not through his son.
 
Minstrel said:
Things don't have to be mirror images to be comparable. Nothing is ever an exact mirror image--the point is that Trump has his own ties to China while trying to claim that Biden has ties to China. It's not a good look. And Trump's ties are direct, not through his son.
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But it “does” have to be in the same ball park. Biden’s sons making deals while his dad is VP, while accompanying him during a policy trip is a big difference than a corporation Trump made a deal with, where he only has a minority stake, during a time he wasn’t even running for office.
 
magnifier661 said:
But it “does” have to be in the same ball park. Biden’s sons making deals while his dad is VP, while accompanying him during a policy trip is a big difference than a corporation Trump made a deal with, where he only has a minority stake, during a time he wasn’t even running for office.
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It's not a big difference to the point being made here, which is about whether ties to China will lead to "softness" in policy towards to China.

Now, if you think Biden misused his Vice Presidential resources, you can make that argument (there's no evidence that he did, currently) and that, if proven true, would be a separate and very different issue. But it has nothing to do with the above point.
 
Minstrel said:
It's not a big difference to the point being made here, which is about whether ties to China will lead to "softness" in policy towards to China.

Now, if you think Biden misused his Vice Presidential resources, you can make that argument (there's no evidence that he did, currently) and that, if proven true, would be a separate and very different issue. But it has nothing to do with the above point.
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But then we go full circle. Biden has been soft on China for most his tenure in politics. Trump, with trade war and tariffs, has been really hard on them.
 
magnifier661 said:
Biden has been soft on China for most his tenure in politics.
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If you, or Trump, wants to make that case, feel free. But what Trump was saying is that Biden's "ties" to China mean he'll be soft on China. That's a really easy claim for Biden to swat away and make Trump look hypocritical on. That's all. The articles aren't making a claim about whether Biden will or won't be soft on China.

Nor am I--whether you allege a politician has been "soft" or "opening diplomatic channels" with a nation is largely going to be spin. This is a big reason why it was said that "only Nixon could go to China." Due to the reputation for both the Republicans and Nixon, of being international hardliners and isolationists, people would accept Nixon opening diplomatic channels with China where they supposedly wouldn't if a Democratic did--even if it was exactly the same actions.
 
Minstrel said:
If you, or Trump, wants to make that case, feel free. But what Trump was saying is that Biden's "ties" to China mean he'll be soft on China. That's a really easy claim for Biden to swat away and make Trump look hypocritical on. That's all. The articles aren't making a claim about whether Biden will or won't be soft on China.

Nor am I--whether you allege a politician has been "soft" or "opening diplomatic channels" with a nation is largely going to be spin. This is a big reason why it was said that "only Nixon could go to China." Due to the reputation for both the Republicans and Nixon, of being international hardliners and isolationists, people would accept Nixon opening diplomatic channels with China where they supposedly wouldn't if a Democratic did--even if it was exactly the same actions.
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Yep, the voters can decide. Let’s see which campaign can do a better job creating that narrative over the other. I guess we can agree to disagree then. :dunno:
 
magnifier661 said:
Except, the deal happened when his Son flew to China with Biden, while Biden was in charge of China Policy, while using Air Force 2.

so comparing apples to apples, it would be like Don, Jr, flies to China with dad on Air Force 1, then after Don Jr closes a project from China.
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No comment on ivanka getting all those patents while her dad is president?
 
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