Ukraine conflict

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Nixon sent me to Viet Nam to prop up their democracy, now that worked out really well in the end.

Those of us who lived through that war are the core of antiwar sentiment. Young know-nothings have to relive a bad war every generation before joining us.

I'll be honest, I'm tired of playing world policeman, getting yelled at and hated on for playing world policeman, and then getting yelled at because we're NOT playing world policeman.

The latter group consists only of American conservative yahoos.

This is fucking serious. Turkey is a member of NATO. Russia and Turkey enter hostilities, and we are treaty-bound to send military assets to our ally in support.

Turkey threatened to close the Dardenelles if the Russian military attacks Ukraine proper. Russia replied that it won't and had never planned to. Not a problem.

The "vote" was proven heavily tampered with. I agree that we should stop forcing what we think is right, but we should help stop what we know is wrong.

I would have seen that, so I don't believe it. Link please. I expect to see a slanted site.
 
Tatars are less than 5% of Crimeans. The article said that some of the Tatars are squatting on land they took and will be moved. It would be cheaper to dig them latrines.
 
The "vote" was proven heavily tampered with. I agree that we should stop forcing what we think is right, but we should help stop what we know is wrong.
so they also have a hanging chads issue..go figure
 
As long as the US wants to have the most important voice in the world, we have to take responsibility for these things. If you are content with a Canada or a Sweden kind of role, we can stop being the world police.
The Euro union can handle these problems. It's their backdoor and they'll get the refugee influx if it gets nasty, not us. I don't see the Chinese running around taking responsibility for these problems, look at N Korea for example. If we really want to put our foot down here, we have one choice and one choice only..send in Dennis Rodman Having an important voice doesn't necessarily mean sending in a huge army or bleeding money overseas either.
 
I posted already that our response should have been to have the UN go in and monitor the vote. How could Putin refuse? It would have been a Putin-like move, in fact. A real coup for our side.

This is sensible
 
As long as the US wants to have the most important voice in the world, we have to take responsibility for these things. If you are content with a Canada or a Sweden kind of role, we can stop being the world police.

Translation: As long as we bigshot conservative warmonger egoists want to have the most important voice in the world, the rest of you humble peons have to take responsibility for these things and killing hundreds of thousands of people at each stop. If you are content with being a normal country, we can stop being a conservative country.

Duh! All that is true by definition.
 
This is sensible

With 96% voting for Russia, a change in some referee calls wouldn't have changed the game outcome. By the way, a vote in eastern Ukraine would produce the same result...if anyone cares about letting people live the way they want.
 
With 96% voting for Russia, a change in some referee calls wouldn't have changed the game outcome. By the way, a vote in eastern Ukraine would produce the same result...if anyone cares about letting people live the way they want.

Asking for the vote to be monitored would be the move of a skilled diplomat. And it would squash any claims of a rigged election, assuming it really was fair.
 
The Euro union can handle these problems. It's their backdoor and they'll get the refugee influx if it gets nasty, not us.
You make a fair point
I don't see the Chinese running around taking responsibility for these problems, look at N Korea for example.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong and out of date. story here
If we really want to put our foot down here, we have one choice and one choice only..send in Dennis Rodman Having an important voice doesn't necessarily mean sending in a huge army or bleeding money overseas either.
All experts are mad at Dennis Rodman for going there. He is helping Kim Jung Un and making Kim look better by going there. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/10/dennis-rodman-north-korea-ego
 
The best way to keep Russia out of Ukraine is to crush Russian economic growth. Get rid of the stupid law against exporting our oil and start fracking like crazy with the intent of supplying Western Europe. Also, work with the Saudis to have them increase their output. Unless you stop an agressor when they have vulnerabilities, you get history repeating itself.

That's yet another conservative sound byte that is impossible in the real world.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/03/18/221633/us-natural-gas-to-europe-not-so.html
 
Much of the rest of the world does not see our morals as Right.

So we end up forcing what we think is Right on them and they resent it. Thus we should really let them determine their own fates, and that involves letting countries vote to join the Russian Federation (or whatever it's called these days).

You're from Chicago, so you're used to corrupt elections.

95%? Yeah, that election was about as free and fair as the one that just occurred in North Korea.

As for what our "morals" are, I don't buy into the idea of moral equivalence. By your logic, you would have let the Jews be exterminated because it was just the Germans doing what they think is right. We have superior morality to much of the rest of the world. We could have taken every drop of oil from Iraq or Kuwait after our military actions there. Do you think China or Russia would have done the same?

I get your position, but isolationism hasn't been a credible doctrine since WWI.
 
We had a responsibility to Ukraine. We promised them if they rid themselves of their nuclear arsenal, their territorial integrity would ensured. Now, they're being gobbled up piece by piece by Russia.

Welcome to the New World Order. I hope Poland, the Baltic States and Taiwan enjoy their new masters.
 
You're from Chicago, so you're used to corrupt elections.

95%? Yeah, that election was about as free and fair as the one that just occurred in North Korea.

As for what our "morals" are, I don't buy into the idea of moral equivalence. By your logic, you would have let the Jews be exterminated because it was just the Germans doing what they think is right. We have superior morality to much of the rest of the world. We could have taken every drop of oil from Iraq or Kuwait after our military actions there. Do you think China or Russia would have done the same?

I get your position, but isolationism hasn't been a credible doctrine since WWI.

There's no genocide going on. Sheesh.
 
Yeah, because Russians have always been among the most humane people and would NEVER treat people from the Ukraine badly

http://www.holodomorct.org/

Should they invade us because we massacred the indians?

How about we wait until they actually do something worth fighting over before rallying the troops?
 
Should they invade us because we massacred the indians?

How about we wait until they actually do something worth fighting over before rallying the troops?

And the Moral Equivalence card has been thrown! Pathetic.

You do realize that there was an signed agreement among Russia, the United States, Ukraine and the United Kingdom that Ukraine's borders would be respected, right?
 
And the Moral Equivalence card has been thrown! Pathetic.

You do realize that there was an signed agreement among Russia, the United States, Ukraine and the United Kingdom that Ukraine's borders would be respected, right?

The Russians didn't invade Ukraine. And the deal was made with a different government.
 
The Russians didn't invade Ukraine. And the deal was made with a different government.

And the Germans didn't invade the Sudentenland or Austria. Riiiight...

As for your second point--which was even dumber than your first--current governments are beholden to the agreements of previous governments, particularly when they are elected under the same system.
 
And the Germans didn't invade the Sudentenland or Austria. Riiiight...

As for your second point--which was even dumber than your first--current governments are beholden to the agreements of previous governments, particularly when they are elected under the same system.

It looked like a coup to me. The new government isn't legitimate, and Putin is right about that.

The Russians aren't the 1930s era germans. Talk about bogus equivalents.
 
The new government isn't legitimate, and Putin is right about that.

Oh come on! Who is Putin to decide what the legitimate government is in Ukraine?

Putin sounds exactly like Hitler justifying entering the Sudetenland.
 

And after Clinton almost invaded Haiti to reinstall the elected Aristide, Bush simply had Aristide kidnapped out of Haiti. So much for Maxiep's American moral superiority.

Aristide later stated that France and the U.S. had a role in what he termed "a kidnapping" that took him from Haiti to South Africa via the Central African Republic.[62] However, authorities said his temporary asylum there had been negotiated by the United States, France and Gabon.[63] On 1 March 2004, U.S. Congresswoman Maxine Waters (D-CA), along with Aristide family friend Randall Robinson, reported Aristide had told them that he had been forced to resign and had been abducted from the country by the United States and that he had been held hostage by an armed military guard.[64] According to Rep. Maxine Waters D-California, Mildred Aristide called her at her home at 6:30*am to inform her "the coup d'etat has been completed", and Jean-Bertrand Aristide said the U.S. Embassy in Haiti's chief of staff came to his house to say he would be killed "and a lot of Haitians would be killed" if he refused to resign immediately and said he "has to go now."[5] Rep. Charles Rangel, D-New York expressed similar words, saying Aristide had told him he was "disappointed that the international community had let him down" and "that he resigned under pressure" – "As a matter of fact, he was very apprehensive for his life. They made it clear that he had to go now or he would be killed."[5] When asked for his response to these statements Colin Powell said that "it might have been better for members of Congress who have heard these stories to ask us about the stories before going public with them so we don't make a difficult situation that much more difficult" and he alleged that Aristide "did not democratically govern or govern well".[5] CARICOM, an organization of Caribbean countries that included Haiti, called for a United Nations investigation into Aristide's removal, but were reportedly pressured by the U.S. and France to drop their request.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide#2004_coup_d.27.C3.A9tat
 
Oh come on! Who is Putin to decide what the legitimate government is in Ukraine?

Putin sounds exactly like Hitler justifying entering the Sudetenland.

agreed!

"Those aren't Russians! They speak Russian, and they deny they are from Russia, and they wear masks. But they don't wear Russian symbols, so they are not Russian!"
 
I thought Putin persecuted homosexuals...

Why is he entering another country through the back door...?
 
Why should I listen to someone who's only had 83 posts in 12 years?
 

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