Ukraine conflict

[Cryptkeeper]

Why should I listen to someone who's only had 83 posts in 12 years?

 

[jlprk]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[maxiep]

It looked like a coup to me. The new government isn't legitimate, and Putin is right about that.

The Russians aren't the 1930s era germans. Talk about bogus equivalents.

Just like 56 in Hungary and 68 in Czechoslovakia, right?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Why is this our problem?

 

[Cryptkeeper]

Why is this our problem?

Because Obama is the world's sheriff.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Because Obama is the world's sheriff.

That's a problem . . .

 

[Cryptkeeper]

That's a problem . . .

Really? I thought all cops were good!

 

[BlazerWookee]

Because Obama is the world's sheriff.

Apparently, Putin is Andy, and Obama is Barney Fife...

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Really? I thought all cops were good!

Not all cops are good (bummer that is how posters interpret my position on law enforcement). But at least law enforcement agencies are given jurisdictions where they have authority. I guess US presidents see themselves as having jurisdiction over the the entire world.

 

[Cryptkeeper]

Not all cops are good (bummer that is how posters interpret my position on law enforcement). But at least law enforcement are given jurisdictions where they have authority. I guess US presidents see themselves as having jurisdiction over the the entire world.

I wasn't being serious.

And i agree.

 

[Natebishop3]

Some Libertarians are isolationists. I get it. I tend to feel that way as well in most things, but when another superpower starts making a power grab, it concerns me.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I wasn't being serious.

And i agree.

I think many on here think I'm a cop lover as I do defend the position of police officer often in the OT section. But I don't take others or myself too seriously on here so I can joke about this stuff.

Go Police!
Go Ukraine!

 

[maxiep]

Why is this our problem?

Two major reasons. First, we promised Ukraine that their territory would be respected if they gave up their nuclear arsenal.

Second, we are the counterbalance to Russian agression.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Two major reasons. First, we promised Ukraine that their territory would be respected if they gave up their nuclear arsenal.

Second, we are the counterbalance to Russian agression.

You're a finance kind of guy (I think) . . . does the US gain anything economically by being the counterbalance to Russian's aggression? I don't think so but I don't process information with a keen eye to economics.

As far as the promise . . . are we the only country to make that promise? If so . . . bad job by that president.

US is slowly but surely not the world economic powerhouse we were in the past . . . I just don't think it is our place to continue to police the world. Germany took a strong stance on this, let them take the lead role is my thought. But I'm sure it is more complicated than that, the promise sure puts a wrinkle in my analysis.

 

[jlprk]

You're a finance kind of guy (I think) . . . does the US gain anything economically by being the counterbalance to Russian's aggression? I don't think so but I don't process information with a keen eye to economics.

I thought that Libertarians believe all power arrangements should be sorted out by the economic system. Let the poor eat cake. Now, Maxiep, you want an overriding global system of morality, with the rules chosen by, who else, our side, because we white cowboy hats are more virtuous than the Indians.

 

[jlprk]

Merging economics with morality leads to you and 1-percenters losing your money in socialism, so I recommend you tread lightly on your new moral cause. If you know what's good for you.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

On the "Budapest Memorandum":

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...he-Budapest-Memorandum-obligate-the-U-S-to-do

Basically, the US isn't obligated to intervene militarily, so this "memorandum" is completely toothless. Send Ukraine some military equipment, but let Europe fight and die in this one.

 

[BlazerWookee]

On the "Budapest Memorandum":

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...he-Budapest-Memorandum-obligate-the-U-S-to-do

Basically, the US isn't obligated to intervene militarily, so this "memorandum" is completely toothless. Send Ukraine some military equipment, but let Europe fight and die in this one.

"dailykos," lol...

 

[donkiez]

I think many on here think I'm a cop lover as I do defend the position of police officer often in the OT section. But I don't take others or myself too seriously on here so I can joke about this stuff.

Go Police!
Go Ukraine!

I do, thats me, I think that!!!

In the name of protesting and police loving I think we can all enjoy this gif.

 

[Denny Crane]

Just like 56 in Hungary and 68 in Czechoslovakia, right?

Irrelevant.

Hitler is long dead. And Russia's military budget is puny.

 

[Denny Crane]

"dailykos," lol...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][2][9] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[8] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[9]

 

[MarAzul]

Obama has never learned when to communicate with logic and when to communicate with feeling.

He always communicates with me and other conservatives with feeling. Like on Healthcare
Don't you meanies want the poor have nots to have healthcare? Tear jerking! What we would like to hear is the logic of how the hell this can possible work???

Now here he goes up against Putin with fucking Logic, stating logical positions, making logical requests!!! Holy crap someone need to clue him in, a bully always speaks with feeling, attempting to invoke intimidation if he can. That last thing you want to bring in return is logic, you need feeling and the stronger the better. Fuck the logic, he skipped that at the get go, Putin needs to see resolve with feeling and much of it. Intimidation in return, back off sucker or you will lose much real soon including half your ass on current course.

Feeling and Logic are tools or a burden if you don't know how to handle tools.
He should have had Europe shutdown the banking system for all of Russia until further notice
as the first display of feeling.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

"dailykos," lol...

Wow! I earned one of your trademark posts, I'm honored. Is their something wrong with the info provided? Do you disagree with the interpretation of the Budapest Memorandum by the partisan liberal wonks at the DK? Do you have your own interpretation of the memorandum? Do you believe in life after love?

 

[maxiep]

k

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][2][9] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[8] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[9]

Denny, your position on this is embarrassing, because you're smarter than this. In 1994, we solved the problem of potental rogue nukes leaving these former Soviet territories with this treaty. This treaty exchanged those nukes for a guarantee from Russian of territorial integrity. In other words, they would give up their nuclear deterrent in exchange for a guarantee their borders would be secure.

It was the WORD of the West that mattered, not a security guarantee.

Now, the next time we want to denuclearize one or more countries (e.g., the Middle East after Iran gets the bomb and all other Arab countries nuke up), this kind of treaty won't work.

President Obama constantly stresses "smart" diplomacy over "cowboy" use of the military, but by letting Russia walk unimpeded into Crimea, he's destroyed any power diplomacy may have.

 

[Natebishop3]

I say we dust off some of the shit that's been sitting in Area 51 for decades and wipe them out with "aliens."

 

[Denny Crane]

k

Denny, your position on this is embarrassing, because you're smarter than this. In 1994, we solved the problem of potental rogue nukes leaving these former Soviet territories with this treaty. This treaty exchanged those nukes for a guarantee from Russian of territorial integrity. In other words, they would give up their nuclear deterrent in exchange for a guarantee their borders would be secure.

It was the WORD of the West that mattered, not a security guarantee.

Now, the next time we want to denuclearize one or more countries (e.g., the Middle East after Iran gets the bomb and all other Arab countries nuke up), this kind of treaty won't work.

President Obama constantly stresses "smart" diplomacy over "cowboy" use of the military, but by letting Russia walk unimpeded into Crimea, he's destroyed any power diplomacy may have.

I find your position embarrassing. I don't believe Obama or Clinton or Kerry are good world leaders or at managing foreign policy, but you really stretch credibility with the Nazi as precedent crap.

The Nazis initiated a 4 year massive military growth program in '36, and were spending near 20% of their GDP on military spending. Russia spends a fraction of what we do, and at a similar % of GDP as we do. I would be alarmed if they were gearing up for war.

The Russian constitution grants them the right to use military force to protect their citizens in former USSR states. Most of Crimea is populated by ethnic Russians. They clearly wanted to join Russia and not be forced to join NATO along with the rest of Ukraine. They voted for it and welcomed the Russians the way we hoped the Iraqis would receive us.

I see no Berlin Wall. I see no fascists. I see no genocide.

What I see is bungled foreign policy. We didn't discourage the coup because we favored the new regime. They were too friendly with the West for most of the people in Crimea to be happy, so they bolted for Russia.

Too bad for us, eh? We aren't pushing around nations on the other side of the globe that we have no business messing with in the first place.

If Ukraine had joined NATO, it would have been a different story, but we didn't make that happen.

 

[jlprk]

The West stole Ukraine from Russia. Russia kept 5% of it, Crimea. You guys have crocodile tears. Fake outrage as usual.

 

[jlprk]

Conservative Pat Buchanan says it perfectly. I completely agree.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/patrick-j-buchanan/behind-russian-rage

 

[Denny Crane]

Conservative Pat Buchanan says it perfectly. I completely agree.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/patrick-j-buchanan/behind-russian-rage

It was better in the original German.

 

[jlprk]

It was better in the original German.

That was funny. I always kind of liked him. He didn't really deserve that publicity a while back.