Politics Ukraine / Russia (2 Viewers)

[beast blazer]

When your neighbor bombs your home and workplace...kills your power grid and rapes and kills your family it's hardly time to become Ghandi or just surrender. Most people aren't built that way. Choices. If you've ever experienced a real war....the "play" analogy is pretty far from reality. It's not a video game.

Ok, so you view the conflict between Russia and Ukraine as being like Russia raping and killing YOUR family.

Is this a product of reality or propaganda that has been inserted into your head, to make you feel that way?

If you take the time to learn about the things that lead up to this conflict, and the civil war between those in the Donbas region and Ukraine, you might have a more balanced view of the conflict. Then, perhaps, you wouldn't be so eager to gamble with the future of civilization.

 

[beast blazer]

Boomer boner time!

What is wrong with these people? You're the only sane person in the OT section.

 

[riverman]

Just like in Crimea, Russia had implanted officials in public office in Ukraine before the invasion. The eastern Ukraine is a fertile crescent for food production and major access to ports on the Black Sea....it's like saying, just let Mexico have California, they used to have it before we did anyway? Yeah....my Ukranian refugee neighbors here in Lane county were reallly clear about explaining the invasion to me...I don't need some MAGA spin doctors on a basketball site to verify global events by any stretch....pro Russsia? So you're either a big Segal fan or you're a MAGA idiot parroting the orange buffoon and his love of dictators and their ability to seize power and eliminate all competition...yeah...I see where you guys are going with your liberal hate sticks. Moscow is looking for volunteers for their cause....good luck with that. I support Ukraine's independence as well as Taiwan's independence. If Russia choses nukes...it'll be the end of Russia.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ok, so you view the conflict between Russia and Ukraine as being like Russia raping and killing YOUR family.

Is this a product of reality or propaganda that has been inserted into your head, to make you feel that way?

If you take the time to learn about the things that lead up to this conflict, and the civil war between those in the Donbas region and Ukraine, you might have a more balanced view of the conflict. Then, perhaps, you wouldn't be so eager to gamble with the future of civilization.

Lol. The parallel @riverman made here was incredibly clear. The fact that you misunderstood it (deliberately or not) shows how untrustworthy your takes are.

 

[beast blazer]

Lol. The parallel @riverman made here was incredibly clear. The fact that you misunderstood it (deliberately or not) shows how untrustworthy your takes are.

Maybe because you're suffering from the same delusion.

 

[beast blazer]

Just like in Crimea, Russia had implanted officials in public office in Ukraine before the invasion. The eastern Ukraine is a fertile crescent for food production and major access to ports on the Black Sea....it's like saying, just let Mexico have California, they used to have it before we did anyway? Yeah....my Ukranian refugee neighbors here in Lane county were reallly clear about explaining the invasion to me...I don't need some MAGA spin doctors on a basketball site to verify global events by any stretch....pro Russsia? So you're either a big Segal fan or you're a MAGA idiot parroting the orange buffoon and his love of dictators and their ability to seize power and eliminate all competition...yeah...I see where you guys are going with your liberal hate sticks. Moscow is looking for volunteers for their cause....good luck with that. I support Ukraine's independence as well as Taiwan's independence. If Russia choses nukes...it'll be the end of Russia.

I've gone over the history in this thread many times, and am getting tired of it. But perhaps this map might help you begin to understand. You realize there was a coup that the the people on the right side of the map were not happy about. And that the Ukranian government has been shelling people in that region since 2014. These are the official election results of the Ukranian government. I'm not saying Russia good/Ukraine bad, I'm only saying this is conflict is not what the Western media portrays it to be.

Also Russia has been proclaiming for years how Ukraine joining NATO is a red line. You know many American foregien policy experts were writing about this as well, how NATOs expansion eastward was setting us up for a conflict with Russia.

Now you all are ready to spark a war that could wipe out humanity because of drama that was planted into your minds. Wisen up...

 

[riverman]

Maybe because you're suffering from the same delusion.

back at you comrade....I'm a very clear headed person who has a very clear understanding of the geopolitical landscape....I worked under Nixon's propoganda machine during the war and you're a joke if you think I'm delusional about the flaws of govt or military aggression. I don't know where you're from but you clearly have a jaded sense of freedom and sovereign rights by the way you prop up Russia's shitty power grab tactics and assassination of political adversaries. You honestly should consider moving to Russia given the idiocy you've spouted about the invasion here and your sympathy for Russian double agents in the region. I'm not suffering from the war in Ukraine but innocent Ukrainians sure are. Fuck Putin and anyone who stands behind him. The reason nobody here agrees with you on the topic is you're fucking wrong about it. Choices...make better ones....I grew up in the 50s when we had cold war nuke drills in elementary school....we're a lot further from nuclear war now than we were in the 50s and 60s but I doubt you would understand how much weaker Russia is than the Soviet Union was.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I've gone over the history in this thread many times, and am getting tired of it. But perhaps this map might help you begin to understand. You realize there was a coup that the the people on the right side of the map were not happy about. And that the Ukranian government has been shelling people in that region since 2014. These are the official election results of the Ukranian government. I'm not saying Russia good/Ukraine bad, I'm only saying this is conflict is not what the Western media portrays it to be.

Also Russia has been proclaiming for years how Ukraine joining NATO is a red line. You know many American foregien policy experts were writing about this as well, how NATOs expansion eastward was setting us up for a conflict with Russia.

Now you all are ready to spark a war that could wipe out humanity because of drama that was planted into your minds. Wisen up...

View attachment 64781

Wow. What a coincidence that Russia invaded Crimea at exactly the same time Ukraine started defending themselves... Almost like if Russia hadn't invaded them none of this would be necessary. So, again, it is exactly how @riverman described it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

In February and March 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula, part of Ukraine, and then annexed it. This took place in the relative power vacuum[33] immediately following the Revolution of Dignity. It marked the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War.

And Russia doesn't get a say in Ukraine joining NATO or not. They don't govern Ukraine.

 

[riverman]

I've gone over the history in this thread many times, and am getting tired of it. But perhaps this map might help you begin to understand. You realize there was a coup that the the people on the right side of the map were not happy about. And that the Ukranian government has been shelling people in that region since 2014. These are the official election results of the Ukranian government. I'm not saying Russia good/Ukraine bad, I'm only saying this is conflict is not what the Western media portrays it to be.

Also Russia has been proclaiming for years how Ukraine joining NATO is a red line. You know many American foregien policy experts were writing about this as well, how NATOs expansion eastward was setting us up for a conflict with Russia.

Now you all are ready to spark a war that could wipe out humanity because of drama that was planted into your minds. Wisen up...

View attachment 64781

There's a war in Ukraine today...don't need to spark it...it's already wreaked havoc in the region. Coloring a map something any communications officer can do ...sort of like Trump with a sharpie on a map. If you trust these printouts, you probably think they are based on facts, not smokescreens for justifying an invasion. The drama you talk about is coming from Marjorie Taylor Green's camp.....consider your sources.they seem to have a striking resemblance to Hanoi Hannah's broadcasts back in the day.....sensationalist propoganda....you felll for it.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Here is a russian POW, who seems intelligent and under no duress. He opens up talking about reaction from people in one of those blue areas on beast's map. Then he says a lot more about how the battle around Kharkiv is going.

 

[beast blazer]

There's a war in Ukraine today...don't need to spark it...it's already wreaked havoc in the region. Coloring a map something any communications officer can do ...sort of like Trump with a sharpie on a map. If you trust these printouts, you probably think they are based on facts, not smokescreens for justifying an invasion. The drama you talk about is coming from Marjorie Taylor Green's camp.....consider your sources.they seem to have a striking resemblance to Hanoi Hannah's broadcasts back in the day.....sensationalist propoganda....you felll for it.

You have no idea what you are talking about. This goes back long before MTG was even a public figure. Why would the Ukrainian government lie about their election results in a way that makes the separatists look justified? That doesn't even make any sense. When you people are confronted with evidence that bursts your information bubble, you just make things up. Leftists are so smug and arrogant yet at the same time extremely foolish and ignorant. It's not a becoming combination.

 

[riverman]

You have no idea what you are talking about. This goes back long before MTG was even a public figure. Why would the Ukrainian government lie about their election results in a way that makes the separatists look justified? That doesn't even make any sense. When you people are confronted with evidence that bursts your information bubble, you just make things up. Leftists are so smug and arrogant yet at the same time extremely foolish and ignorant. It's not a becoming combination.

I'm not a leftist but you can shake your liberal hate stick around and think it makes you right. Being loud isn't being right. What led to the invasiono of Ukraine was Putin's expansionist desires to rebuild the Soviet Union....goes even further back than MTG....all the way to the Crimean incident. Russia's military aggression isn't even popular in Russia. You are following a GOP led partisan propoganda machine and trying to make it into a weapon against the Biden administration. You think we are triggering nuclear war....I don't.....let's start there. Somebody is sensationalizing and justifying atrocities and it's not me. You may be desperate for a hated rival to argue with but don't waste your time. I'm not your enemy...Russia is. We're at an impasse here and I think you need to find another sparring partner because nothing you are selling is remotely believable from my camp.....is what it is. Next you'll be complaining about defending Taiwan..

 

[Phatguysrule]

You have no idea what you are talking about. This goes back long before MTG was even a public figure. Why would the Ukrainian government lie about their election results in a way that makes the separatists look justified? That doesn't even make any sense. When you people are confronted with evidence that bursts your information bubble, you just make things up. Leftists are so smug and arrogant yet at the same time extremely foolish and ignorant. It's not a becoming combination.

The video above completely refutes your position. The Ukrainian people don't want Russia there. They want nothing to do with Russia. The shelling you're referring to was the Ukrainian people shelling the Russian invaders.

 

[beast blazer]

The video above completely refutes your position. The Ukrainian people don't want Russia there. They want nothing to do with Russia. The shelling you're referring to was the Ukrainian people shelling the Russian invaders.

The leader they overwhelmingly supported was ousted in the Maidan coup, and tens of thousands of them protested in the streets afterwards, and the Ukrainian military has been shelling them for years. But they're not really upset. That's just Russian propaganda.

The Ukranians have killed hundreds of civilians in that region, well before Russia invaded in 2022. You can also find videos of this conflict, and locals talking about being assaulted by the Ukranian government. So one video of a man talking doesn't "refute" anything.

Imagine if in 2021, Biden were overthrown and Trump re-installed. You'd be pretty upset too wouldn't you? Don't tell me may leftists wouldn't be talking about suceeding. That talk was going on in the US even.

These are UN figures...

 

[Phatguysrule]

The leader they overwhelmingly supported was ousted in the Maidan coup, and tens of thousands of them protested in the streets afterwards, and the Ukrainian military has been shelling them for years. But they're not really upset. That's just Russian propaganda.

The Ukranians have killed hundreds of civilians in that region, well before Russia invaded in 2022. You can also find videos of this conflict, and locals talking about being assaulted by the Ukranian government. So one video of a man talking doesn't "refute" anything.

Imagine if in 2021, Biden were overthrown and Trump re-installed. You'd be pretty upset too wouldn't you? Don't tell me may leftists wouldn't be talking about suceeding. That talk was going on in the US even.

These are UN figures...

Russia invaded in 2014. The vast majority of the violence was in response to that invasion.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

These are UN figures...

Link?

 

[barfo]

I've gone over the history in this thread many times, and am getting tired of it.

Finally, some good news!

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

Russia invaded in 2014. The vast majority of the violence was in response to that invasion.

That was them taking over Crimea. That's different issue.

And you know what's funny, if you adjust your google search for articles prior to 2021 you can see articles openly talking about "Ukraine's Civil War".

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-arming-the-ukrainians-is-a-bad-idea/
https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...ne-civil-war-white-supremacist-groups-russia/
https://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/ukraine-civil-war-rip-minsk-ii/
https://www.thenation.com/article/a...il-war-and-confrontation-russia-may-escalate/
https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-conflict-affects-over-half-a-million-children-says-unicef/a-19059718

 

[beast blazer]

Hmm...even NPR, you're favorite station.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Hmm...even NPR, you're favorite station.
View attachment 64795

Maybe you should look into taking that training.

 

[beast blazer]

Maybe you should look into taking that training.

Or maybe I should be teaching the class. It would be easy. I'd just turn on MSNBC or CNN.

 

[Phatguysrule]

That was them taking over Crimea. That's different issue.

And you know what's funny, if you adjust your google search for articles prior to 2021 you can see articles openly talking about "Ukraine's Civil War".

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-arming-the-ukrainians-is-a-bad-idea/
https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...ne-civil-war-white-supremacist-groups-russia/
https://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/ukraine-civil-war-rip-minsk-ii/
https://www.thenation.com/article/a...il-war-and-confrontation-russia-may-escalate/
https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-conflict-affects-over-half-a-million-children-says-unicef/a-19059718

Hmm...even NPR, you're favorite station.
View attachment 64795

Does Mexico get to come in and take whatever US land they want because we had a civil war?

 

[crandc]

Does Mexico get to come in and take whatever US land they want because we had a civil war?

And because a big piece of the US was one part of Mexico.

 

[Phatguysrule]

And because a big piece of the US was one part of Mexico.

I guess we could fight back... But people might die, so we should just give them what they want...

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

The leader they overwhelmingly supported was ousted in the Maidan coup, and tens of thousands of them protested in the streets afterwards, and the Ukrainian military has been shelling them for years. But they're not really upset. That's just Russian propaganda.

The Ukranians have killed hundreds of civilians in that region, well before Russia invaded in 2022. You can also find videos of this conflict, and locals talking about being assaulted by the Ukranian government. So one video of a man talking doesn't "refute" anything.

Imagine if in 2021, Biden were overthrown and Trump re-installed. You'd be pretty upset too wouldn't you? Don't tell me may leftists wouldn't be talking about suceeding. That talk was going on in the US even.

These are UN figures...

IF these numbers are correct and not cherry picked for those particulat three years. a likely explanation is that russia often set up their artillery in densely populated areas. Also, knowing the UN, they most likely just took the word of Donbass leaders without verification.

 

[beast blazer]

Does Mexico get to come in and take whatever US land they want because we had a civil war?

What I'm saying, is that if the media framed this conflict, to be in line with the actual situation, people would not be willing to fight Russia to the death over it. It's not our war. If we get involved, it should have been as negotiators for peace. If two men were having a Bowie knife fight you wouldn't get in the middle of it.

Every time we engage in conflict with Russia we're playing "Russian Roulette", and you only get to play that game so many times. So why, over the past 30 years, have we been doing the very things that many forgien policy experts predicted would lead to war with Russia?

 

[Phatguysrule]

What I'm saying, is that if the media framed this conflict, to be in line with the actual situation, people would not be willing to fight Russia to the death over it. It's not our war. If we get involved, it should have been as negotiators for peace. If two men were having a Bowie knife fight you wouldn't get in the middle of it.

Every time we engage in conflict with Russia we're playing "Russian Roulette", and you only get to play that game so many times. So why, over the past 30 years, have we been doing the very things that many forgien policy experts predicted would lead to war with Russia?

You don't just let an aggressive asshole rape whoever he wants repeatedly. Even if he has a gun or a knife.

That's not acceptable.

 

[beast blazer]

You don't just let an aggressive asshole rape whoever he wants repeatedly. Even if he has a gun or a knife.

That's not acceptable.

You're speaking from the warped perspective. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You're speaking from the warped perspective. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

There is no other relevant perspective. It's Ukrainian land. Russia is invading and killing civilians.

The right thing to do is help Ukraine defend themselves as long as they are asking us to. These are the only facts that matter. This is actually very simple.

 

[barfo]

What I'm saying, is that if the media framed this conflict, to be in line with the actual situation, people would not be willing to fight Russia to the death over it. It's not our war.

Yes, that's why we are not fighting it. It is Ukraine's war, and I'm pretty sure they have a better idea than you or I about the situation in Ukraine.

barfo