Politics Ukraine / Russia (4 Viewers)

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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Sorry, but only in a fantasy world is "diplomacy" and "Putin" NOT an oxymoron. Diplomacy for Putin is "Bend over and take it because it's coming anyway". Any defense of Putin and his actions is utterly unconscionable. But Biden a bad, bad man. Only in the fucking MAGA universe.......
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Feigning outrage isn’t a substitute for an argument my man.
 
jonnyboy said:
It’s as consequential as a basketball game to most people here. They just want to be analysts and cheer on a side. They know they personally wont be inconvenienced so who gives a shit if a million people die over there. It’s all points and scores; and when the media scraps the narrative, so will they.
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It's easy to talk when you don't have skin in the game. If the retaliation from Russia were guaranteed to hit Phat of Sly's homes, they'd change their tune. But they don't kind of the consequence results in other people being killed.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Sorry, but only in a fantasy world is "diplomacy" and "Putin" NOT an oxymoron. Diplomacy for Putin is "Bend over and take it because it's coming anyway". Any defense of Putin and his actions is utterly unconscionable. But Biden a bad, bad man. Only in the fucking MAGA universe.......
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Russia has been trying to deal with this issue diplomatically for years, and had a deal on the table prior to the invasion, that only asked Ukraine to not join NATO, and independents for the separatists regions in Luhansk and Donetsk. Not a drop of blood needed to be shed.

Now these things will happen anyway.
 
I agree that war is a failure of diplomacy but guys like Putin or Hitler weren't interested in diplomacy period. False equivalency would be comparing Biden't hawkish responses to Putin's invasion and pillaging of his neighbor. My biggest Joe complaint is Gaza so far. If you don't like Joe and think Putin is a douche....vote for Kennedy at least. Choices...we don't have any good ones but we have one horrible one to deal with as a nation and that's Trump.
 
Two quick updates.

Ukraines drone manufacturing is now 3,000 units, PER DAY, 90,000 PER MONTH! Most are small drones, but still, that is a lot of pesky sky threats for the Russians to deal with.

Russia is so desperate for soldiers, they have formed a fighting brigade of wounded. However, they are not totally healed. There is drone video of wounded solders with large bandages on the front line, using canes to move around.
 
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Trump has a plan for ending this war? Let's hear it! On two weeks. With infrastructure plan, health plan, tax returns.....
 
beast crnjo said:
Russia has been trying to deal with this issue diplomatically for years, and had a deal on the table prior to the invasion, that only asked Ukraine to not join NATO, and independents for the separatists regions in Luhansk and Donetsk. Not a drop of blood needed to be shed.

Now these things will happen anyway.
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I guess at this stage of my life I should be more specific....and honest. I really couldn't give two shits how many Russians have died trying to takeover a sovereign nation. Fight stupid wars, lose stupid lives. Seems like that would make me a proud "Murrican "patriot" these days. NATO is a defensive alliance that exists because a belligerent Russia exists. Maybe if Russia made smarter choices there would be no need for NATO.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I guess at this stage of my life I should be more specific....and honest. I really couldn't give two shits how many Russians have died trying to takeover a sovereign nation. Fight stupid wars, lose stupid lives. Seems like that would make me a proud "Murrican "patriot" these days. NATO is a defensive alliance that exists because a belligerent Russia exists. Maybe if Russia made smarter choices there would be no need for NATO.
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Do you care about the Ukrainians that are dying? Or perhaps you left them out of the picture so you could feel like you're scoring cheap points.

Either way, it just proves you're more interested in virtue signaling than in people's actual lives. Typical lefty.
 
beast crnjo said:
Do you care about the Ukrainians that are dying? Or perhaps you left them out of the picture so you could feel like you're scoring cheap points.

Either way, it just proves you're more interested in virtue signaling than in people's actual lives. Typical lefty.
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The Ukrainians seem to be doing just fine. And you needed an excuse to use "virtue signaling" so I gave you one. Does the moral imperative that that provides you also give you a chubby? I guess I'd be more impressed by your "compassion" for your fellow man if you weren't such a chest thumping MAGAt. A chainsaw wouldn't cut the irony....
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
The Ukrainians seem to be doing just fine. And you needed an excuse to use "virtue signaling" so I gave you one. Does the moral imperative that that provides you also give you a chubby? I guess I'd be more impressed by your "compassion" for your fellow man if you weren't such a chest thumping MAGAt. A chainsaw wouldn't cut the irony....
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Ukraine is not OK. You and @Phatguysrule should read this article. Hundreds of thousands of of men in Ukraine have either fled the country or are currently trying to avoid the draft. 2/3rds of those polled said they do NOT want to serve in the military. They're dying in droves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/world/europe/ukraine-war-draft-dodgers-conscription.html
 
beast crnjo said:
Ukraine is not OK. You and @Phatguysrule should read this article. Hundreds of thousands of of men in Ukraine have either fled the country or are currently trying to avoid the draft. 2/3rds of those polled said they do NOT want to serve in the military. They're dying in droves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/world/europe/ukraine-war-draft-dodgers-conscription.html
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And the numbers and actions are very similar in Russia. You're right no one, not Russians or Ukrainians wants this war. The only one that does is Putin.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
And the numbers and actions are very similar in Russia. You're right no one, not Russians or Ukrainians wants this war. The only one that does is Putin.
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And now Russia has given North Korea hypersonic missles with which they could hit American cities with. All we had to do was tell Ukraine they couldn't join NATO. Talk all you want "the right to", but to say it's not worth it is the understatement of the century, as it's nothing but a provocation that has lead to hundreds of thousands of causalties, wasted billions of dollars, and may lead to the end of civilization.

It's been the worst deal in the history of ever.
 
beast crnjo said:
And now Russia has given North Korea hypersonic missles with which they could hit American cities with. All we had to do was tell Ukraine they couldn't join NATO. Talk all you want "the right to", but to say it's not worth it is the understatement of the century, as it's nothing but a provocation that has lead to hundreds of thousands of causalties, wasted billions of dollars, and may lead to the end of civilization.

It's been the worst deal in the history of ever.
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We have told Ukraine they couldn't join NATO. NATO never came knocking on Ukraine's door. Ukraine asked to join NATO and they were told no. You have been repeatedly told this with links. NATO will not fuck with countries that have inner disputes.

Ukraine was put on a "path to join NATO" but that had a whole bunch of shit they had to do first and that included their border dispute with Russia, the dispute over Crimea, and their political corruption.

Fucking Putin could ask to join NATO and we would put them on a path to join with a whole bunch of shit they would have to do. It wouldn't mean that Russia is joining NATO.

Part of NATO is sharing military strategies and abilities, Ukraine has too much corruption share that with. Also NATO does not want to be drug into wars or inner-country disputes.

Putin is the one claiming we invited Ukraine to join NATO. That is false.

Putin is also claiming we promised Russia that we would not allow any Warsaw Pact countries to join NATO.

1. That promise was made to the USSR. A country that does not exist.
2. The Warsaw Pact was dissolved in 1991.
 
beast crnjo said:
Ukraine is not OK. You and @Phatguysrule should read this article. Hundreds of thousands of of men in Ukraine have either fled the country or are currently trying to avoid the draft. 2/3rds of those polled said they do NOT want to serve in the military. They're dying in droves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/world/europe/ukraine-war-draft-dodgers-conscription.html
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I don't want to serve in the military either. But you can bet I will fight my ass off if somebody is invading my country.
 
beast crnjo said:
And now Russia has given North Korea hypersonic missles with which they could hit American cities with. All we had to do was tell Ukraine they couldn't join NATO. Talk all you want "the right to", but to say it's not worth it is the understatement of the century, as it's nothing but a provocation that has lead to hundreds of thousands of causalties, wasted billions of dollars, and may lead to the end of civilization.

It's been the worst deal in the history of ever.
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We have been telling Ukraine they can't join and we have been laying out the reasons why. We are preparing to tell them again that they can't join.

Ukraine is however desperate to join because of Russia's aggression.

We can all see that this fear is well founded. Because Russia has in fact made a habit of invading their neighbors.

So it's only fair that we consider their pleading and help them work toward joining.

All Russia has done over the past decade or so is convince me that yes, Ukraine does indeed require NATO support. Including membership, if they can meet the qualifications. Do they deserve a NATO membership? Not yet, according to NATO. However, they do require that support. The whole world can see that.

That's all the fault of Russia.
 
beast crnjo said:
Ukraine is not OK. You and @Phatguysrule should read this article. Hundreds of thousands of of men in Ukraine have either fled the country or are currently trying to avoid the draft. 2/3rds of those polled said they do NOT want to serve in the military. They're dying in droves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/world/europe/ukraine-war-draft-dodgers-conscription.html
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Yep, and one of those "patriots" is my neighbor. He doesn't want Russia running his country but he's too big of a pussy to fight. Cowards don't need excuses.....
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Yep, and one of those "patriots" is my neighbor. He doesn't want Russia running his country but he's too big of a pussy to fight. Cowards don't need excuses.....
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I’d leave that banana republic shithole too. They are being used as cannon fodder in someone else's dick swinging contest. You'd never catch me voluntarily signing up to get mowed down in less than 24 hours. In fact, I will do everything in my power to ensure my children go NOWHERE near the US military as long as these blood soaked monsters are running the world.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't want to serve in the military either. But you can bet I will fight my ass off if somebody is invading my country.
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If the western leaders who are perpetuating this war by funding and equipping Ukraine had to strap up and go to the front lines themselves, this war would be over before you could blink.
 
Not sure these stats will solve anything, but here goes.

So far this year. 2024...

Ukraine's population has increased by 3.25% est.

Russia's population has decreased by 300,000, est.
 
beast crnjo said:
If the western leaders who are perpetuating this war by funding and equipping Ukraine had to strap up and go to the front lines themselves, this war would be over before you could blink.
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The only people perpetuating this war are the Russians who are invading Ukraine.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
We have told Ukraine they couldn't join NATO. NATO never came knocking on Ukraine's door. Ukraine asked to join NATO and they were told no. You have been repeatedly told this with links. NATO will not fuck with countries that have inner disputes.

Ukraine was put on a "path to join NATO" but that had a whole bunch of shit they had to do first and that included their border dispute with Russia, the dispute over Crimea, and their political corruption.

Fucking Putin could ask to join NATO and we would put them on a path to join with a whole bunch of shit they would have to do. It wouldn't mean that Russia is joining NATO.

Part of NATO is sharing military strategies and abilities, Ukraine has too much corruption share that with. Also NATO does not want to be drug into wars or inner-country disputes.

Putin is the one claiming we invited Ukraine to join NATO. That is false.

Putin is also claiming we promised Russia that we would not allow any Warsaw Pact countries to join NATO.

1. That promise was made to the USSR. A country that does not exist.
2. The Warsaw Pact was dissolved in 1991.
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In June 2021 at the Brussels summit NATO leaders said that Ukraine will eventually become a NATO country and would be given an "MAP"(Membership Action Plan).
(see item 69 https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm)

And for years prior, NATO countries were funneling in money to build up Ukraine's military. It was pretty clear where things were headed.


Russia had long said this was a red line. Russia tried again in December, through diplomacy to get NATO to agree to not allow Ukraine to join and to pull it's military equipment back from Eastern Europe, a demand which was rejected.

So the conditions to prevent conflict were clear. There was a long escalation leading up to this. Even back in the 90s foreign policy experts were warning that NATO expansion would lead to an eventual conflict with Russia. Russia kept complaining about this, and Ukraine was the red line. So they invaded to prevent it.

You can argue that Russia was not morally justified in invading, but you can't argue that they weren't provoked. If Russia or China were making the same moves in Canada we wouldn't like it either.
 
beast crnjo said:
In June 2021 at the Brussels summit NATO leaders said that Ukraine will eventually become a NATO country and would be given an "MAP"(Membership Action Plan).
(see item 69 https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm)

And for years prior, NATO countries were funneling in money to build up Ukraine's military. It was pretty clear where things were headed.


Russia had long said this was a red line. Russia tried again in December, through diplomacy to get NATO to agree to not allow Ukraine to join and to pull it's military equipment back from Eastern Europe, a demand which was rejected.

So the conditions to prevent conflict were clear. There was a long escalation leading up to this. Even back in the 90s foreign policy experts were warning that NATO expansion would lead to an eventual conflict with Russia. Russia kept complaining about this, and Ukraine was the red line. So they invaded to prevent it.

You can argue that Russia was not morally justified in invading, but you can't argue that they weren't provoked. If Russia or China were making the same moves in Canada we wouldn't like it either.
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Russia invaded in 2014. They were not provoked. They called it annexing Crimea.

All they had to do was not invade their neighbors.
 
barfo said:
So... I assume you don't have skin in the game?

barfo
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My stance is the same weather I have skin in the game or not. The difference between us, is that I don't want others to die over Ukraine's nato membership status and you lefties are in favor if it. You'd want peace if you were the ones that would be sent to fight.
 
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