Politics Ukraine / Russia

[barfo]

[...] is the kind of thing you'd do if you were brainstorming a way to bring the worst possible public opinion down on yourself.

Who benefits?

You surely must have an answer for that question. When you post, who benefits?

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

You surely must have an answer for that question. When you post, who benefits?

barfo

Everyone, I enlighten you all.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Exclusive: US and Germany foiled Russian plot to assassinate CEO of arms manufacturer sending weapons to Ukraine

US intelligence discovered earlier this year that the Russian government planned to assassinate the chief executive of a powerful German arms manufacturer that has been producing artillery shells and military vehicles for Ukraine, according to five US and western officials familiar with the episode.

The plot was one of a series of Russian plans to assassinate defense industry executives across Europe who were supporting Ukraine’s war effort, these sources said. The plan to kill Armin Papperger, a white-haired goliath who has led the German manufacturing charge in support of Kyiv, was the most mature.

When the Americans learned of the effort, they informed Germany, whose security services were then able to protect Papperger and foil the plot. A high-level German government official confirmed that Berlin was warned about the plot by the US.

For more than six months, Russia has been carrying out a sabotage campaign across Europe, largely by proxy. It has recruited local amateurs for everything from arson attacks on warehouses linked to arms for Ukraine to petty acts of vandalism — all designed to stymie the flow of weapons from the West to Ukraine and blunt public support for Kyiv.

But the intelligence suggesting that Russia was willing to assassinate private citizens underlined to Western officials just how far Moscow was willing to go in a parallel shadow war it is waging across the west.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Biden administration picked this fight with Russia.

Partly due to his base doing the Russia, Russia, Russia thing. How do you expect Russia to look at this?

Partly due to talking NATO membership for Ukraine. How do you expect Russia to like NATO and missiles on its border?

Partly due to saying things like. "I'll stand toe to toe with Putin" - them's fighting words.

Partly due to saying things like, "There will be no US troops/boots on the ground." Precedent is "nothing is off the table" and troops on the ground in West Berlin and West Germany to deter aggression.

It's not our blood being spilled. It's the good people of Ukraine and Russia who are dying and being wounded.

Why on earth would anyone support picking a fight with a nuclear power?

Diplomacy means talking to your enemies to make peace. It doesn't mean making war or using proxies to make war around the world.

Obama and Biden administrations have left cities and countries in rubble. It's something that cannot be justified.

I'm voting for RFK Jr. this time around. I don't think he's interested in making war.

This is really out there. Very disppointed that you make a rare appearance to post this.
Biden base doing rusia, russia, russia thing? What? Nobody in USA, especially Dems had any interest at all in russia until russia invaded theri neighbor. In fact, Biden base would be about the same as Obama base, wouldn't they. and Obama didn't really give a shit what russia did to Georgia or Ukraine. Advised Ukraine not to fight bac when russia took Crimea.

USA never talked seriously about Ukraine to NATO, they just kept throwing up roadblocks (they still are in fact) to make sure they never got in. did you view the Prigozhin video that I posted here where he states russoa's invasion had absolutely nothing to do with NATO, that it was simply a resource grab by russian elite? This has been borne out by how much grain and metal products that russia then stole and exported from Ukraine.
NATO doesn't have missiles on the borders of russia, invact Obama canceled plans for installing defensive missile interceptors in NATO countries.

Biden's account tweeted in February, 2020: "Vladimir Putin doesn't want me to be President. He doesn't want me to be our nominee. If you're wondering why—it's because I'm the only person in this field who's ever gone toe-to-toe with him," the then Democratic presidential candidate said
That doesn't sound confrontational, it's just puffery in a political race. On the other hand, after his rejection of reconciliation with the West in his Munich speech of 2007. what did Putin actually DO:
"Following the speech, Putin matched his words with actions, dismantling the structures designed to keep peace in post-Cold War Europe. Russia formally announced in July 2007 that it would no longer adhere to the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty. It continued to reject the principle of host-nation consent for its troop presence in Georgia and Moldova, and began ignoring Vienna Convention limits on troop concentrations, exercises and transparency.

In 2008, Russia invaded Georgia, trading its peacekeepers in the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia for regular military personnel, and driving tanks toward the capital, Tbilisi. Six years later, Russian operatives took over Crimea and rapidly orchestrated its illegal annexation by Russia. Russia followed up with attacks in eastern Ukraine and continues to engage in low-intensity fighting and to occupy parts of Donbas to this day. Later, Russia violated the INF Treaty and began to deny overflights requested under the Open Skies Treaty."

I don't what your next sentence is about. First you seem to say Biden was confrontational and that NATO on russia's borders is confrontational but then you seem to be saying USA should have had more trrops in Europe to deter Putin? In hindsight I think we can see that what would have deterred Putin is if USA was serious about getting Ukraine into NATO.

Yes, a lot of blood is being spent needlessly. One man can end that in a minute by withdrawing his troops to his own country. Ukraine has seen the torture, imprisonment and executions in the street that takes place wherever russia occupies. They correctly don't think peace will stop the killing by the russians.

Do you think USA is using Ukraine as a proxy to fight russia? What would be the benefit to USA of that? As I said, Americans didn't give a thought to russia before they invaded Ukraine. I agree with you, USA gains nothing by being involved in a war against a nuclear power, or as some say "a gas station with a nuclear bomb". USA and Biden would be very happy if russia would go home and end the war.
I don't usually waste my time responding to dis-information here, but I was concerned that some people might think you had some credibility. I'm not trying to be dis-respectful but I just don't understand where you are coming from.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

The Ukraine girls still knock me out! With thanks to Lennon/McCartney

10,000 now in combat roles.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Sorry, but only in a fantasy world is "diplomacy" and "Putin" NOT an oxymoron. Diplomacy for Putin is "Bend over and take it because it's coming anyway".

Absolutely right. russia has violated every agreement they have ever made, including 40o international treaties just since 2014.
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-po...ut-400-international-treaties-since-2014.html

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Exclusive: US and Germany foiled Russian plot to assassinate CEO of arms manufacturer sending weapons to Ukraine

US intelligence discovered earlier this year that the Russian government planned to assassinate the chief executive of a powerful German arms manufacturer that has been producing artillery shells and military vehicles for Ukraine, according to five US and western officials familiar with the episode.

The plot was one of a series of Russian plans to assassinate defense industry executives across Europe who were supporting Ukraine’s war effort, these sources said. The plan to kill Armin Papperger, a white-haired goliath who has led the German manufacturing charge in support of Kyiv, was the most mature.

When the Americans learned of the effort, they informed Germany, whose security services were then able to protect Papperger and foil the plot. A high-level German government official confirmed that Berlin was warned about the plot by the US.

For more than six months, Russia has been carrying out a sabotage campaign across Europe, largely by proxy. It has recruited local amateurs for everything from arson attacks on warehouses linked to arms for Ukraine to petty acts of vandalism — all designed to stymie the flow of weapons from the West to Ukraine and blunt public support for Kyiv.

But the intelligence suggesting that Russia was willing to assassinate private citizens underlined to Western officials just how far Moscow was willing to go in a parallel shadow war it is waging across the west.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html

russia declared hybrid war against the West many years ago.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

They were provoked. The CIA banked Maidan coup. Western nations vying for influence/control of the country by ousting a leader that was more friendly with Russia in exchange for one that would align with the west.

Again, you can say they weren't morally justified, but not that they weren't provoked. Why is the West meddling in their sphere of influence? We'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.

Sorry I don't usually bother responding to you. There is absolutely no evidence that CIA funded or supported Maidan. I was there virtually every day and night. Completely spontaneous and fought with paving bricks and molotov cocktails by people whose main motivation was they wanted to live in a "normal" country. If you are gonna spread shit, you need to back it up.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I have Beast on ignor. I can see the pictures of the missiles he posted, before I sign in. But can not copy them into this post.

There are at least 6 mistakes made in the photo shop that prove his post is fake.

Easiest are the shadows. One missile has the shadows on top, the other below.

The tail fins have several mistakes. It is clear an extra fin was added to the bottom missile. Plus the shorter fin length proves it was a Russian cruise missile.

I can point out 3 more errors that prove his missile pick is fake.

The missile that hit the childrens hospital was a Russian cruise missile.

Thank you. It's just incredible that there are posters on here, supposedly Americans, who support the ridiculous lies of russia.

 

[beast blazer]

Sorry I don't usually bother responding to you. There is absolutely no evidence that CIA funded or supported Maidan. I was there virtually every day and night. Completely spontaneous and fought with paving bricks and molotov cocktails by people whose main motivation was they wanted to live in a "normal" country. If you are gonna spread shit, you need to back it up.

The US openly supported the ousting of Yanukovych. It's not my fault that you're so painfully ignorant. And no, the leaders of the Maidan coup were Neo-Nazis who began to oppress the ethnic Russians in the east who supported Yanukovych.

You've proven your ignorance over and over again with all your posts about how Ukraine is winning militarily. I've been saying for the last 2 years this was not the case, and have been proven correct.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The US openly supported the ousting of Yanukovych. It's not my fault that you're so painfully ignorant. And no, the leaders of the Maidan coup were Neo-Nazis who began to oppress the ethnic Russians in the east who supported Yanukovych.

You've proven your ignorance over and over again with all your posts about how Ukraine is winning militarily. I've been saying for the last 2 years this was not the case, and have been proven correct.

I'm curious, and I'm being serious, is your family Russian?

 

[beast blazer]

I'm curious, and I'm being serious, is your family Russian?

I'm not Russian, I just don't like only one side of the story being told. I could argue that Russia shouldn't have escalated this as they have, but what we have here is two dogs fighting over a bone (Ukraine) only this fight has already caused the deaths of tens of thousands, and could possibly result in the death of billions.

But our current leadership isn't interested in ending the conflict, but in attaining a victory which will never happen. And the masses cheer this on, as they've been sold a story of a righteous struggle against evil.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'm not Russian, I just don't like only one side of the story being told. I could argue that Russia shouldn't have escalated this as they have, but what we have here is two dogs fighting over a bone (Ukraine) only this fight has already caused the deaths of tens of thousands, and could possibly result in the death of billions.

But our current leadership isn't interested in ending the conflict, but in attaining a victory which will never happen. And the masses cheer this on, as they've been sold a story of a righteous struggle against evil.

But it's Ukraine's bone.

 

[beast blazer]

But it's Ukraine's bone.

Ukraine is the bone.

 

[Denny Crane]

This is really out there. Very disppointed that you make a rare appearance to post this.
Biden base doing rusia, russia, russia thing? What? Nobody in USA, especially Dems had any interest at all in russia until russia invaded theri neighbor. In fact, Biden base would be about the same as Obama base, wouldn't they. and Obama didn't really give a shit what russia did to Georgia or Ukraine. Advised Ukraine not to fight bac when russia took Crimea.

USA never talked seriously about Ukraine to NATO, they just kept throwing up roadblocks (they still are in fact) to make sure they never got in. did you view the Prigozhin video that I posted here where he states russoa's invasion had absolutely nothing to do with NATO, that it was simply a resource grab by russian elite? This has been borne out by how much grain and metal products that russia then stole and exported from Ukraine.
NATO doesn't have missiles on the borders of russia, invact Obama canceled plans for installing defensive missile interceptors in NATO countries.

It has been Biden's full intention to admit Ukraine to NATO. That was the talk at the time when Putin started building up troops on the Ukraine border.

Look, in the early 1960s, Russia tried to put missiles in Cuba and president Kennedy blockaded Cuba and nearly forced a nuclear war over it. But it's OK for the US to not want missiles on its borders (90 miles way from Florida), but not for Russia?

I'm not at all pro Russia, I'm just saying you have to look at both sides since there are TWO SIDES in any conflict.

Russia invaded Crimea during Obama's term and Ukraine during Biden's. Whatever foreign policy they had towards Russia was an utter failure.

Biden's account tweeted in February, 2020: "Vladimir Putin doesn't want me to be President. He doesn't want me to be our nominee. If you're wondering why—it's because I'm the only person in this field who's ever gone toe-to-toe with him," the then Democratic presidential candidate said
That doesn't sound confrontational, it's just puffery in a political race. On the other hand, after his rejection of reconciliation with the West in his Munich speech of 2007. what did Putin actually DO:
"Following the speech, Putin matched his words with actions, dismantling the structures designed to keep peace in post-Cold War Europe. Russia formally announced in July 2007 that it would no longer adhere to the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty. It continued to reject the principle of host-nation consent for its troop presence in Georgia and Moldova, and began ignoring Vienna Convention limits on troop concentrations, exercises and transparency.

How do you expect him to respond to fighting words?

"Toe-to-toe" with him is picking a fight.

The Russia, Russia, Russia thing is a disproven theory that Russia and the Trump campaign colluded to win the election. The constant lies about this and assaults on Russia as our enemy sure fires up Biden's base.

You might want to look at what Trump did regarding Russia - the financial penalties put on the country and its oligarchs. And no, I'm not a Trump fan - I'm just being objective.

It's an ironic thing. The Republicans used to be anti-Russia/anti-communism and now it's Democrats who are assaulting and making war against Russia.

In 2008, Russia invaded Georgia, trading its peacekeepers in the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia for regular military personnel, and driving tanks toward the capital, Tbilisi. Six years later, Russian operatives took over Crimea and rapidly orchestrated its illegal annexation by Russia. Russia followed up with attacks in eastern Ukraine and continues to engage in low-intensity fighting and to occupy parts of Donbas to this day. Later, Russia violated the INF Treaty and began to deny overflights requested under the Open Skies Treaty."

I don't what your next sentence is about. First you seem to say Biden was confrontational and that NATO on russia's borders is confrontational but then you seem to be saying USA should have had more trrops in Europe to deter Putin? In hindsight I think we can see that what would have deterred Putin is if USA was serious about getting Ukraine into NATO.

Ukraine being a NATO country would mean NATO missiles on Russia's border. There are missiles aimed at Russia in every other NATO country in Europe.

During the Cold War, the US and NATO had troops in West Berlin and West Germany to deter Russian aggression and it worked. These troops were not a threat to invade East Germany or East Berlin. Those troops would have been wiped out within minutes if Russia did invade. I hope you might see the difference.

Yes, a lot of blood is being spent needlessly. One man can end that in a minute by withdrawing his troops to his own country. Ukraine has seen the torture, imprisonment and executions in the street that takes place wherever russia occupies. They correctly don't think peace will stop the killing by the russians.

The whole thing would have been avoided by:
1) Not talking a path for Ukraine in NATO or offering NATO membership to Russia (think about that one!)
2) Positioning American/NATO troops in Ukraine as we did in West Berlin and West Germany during the USSR days. Russia did not invade those two.
3) Saying "nothing is off the table."
4) Not saying things like "I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do." -- Joe Biden

War is hell. I don't wish it on Ukrainians, nor do I wish it on the Russian citizens who are needlessly fighting.

Do you think USA is using Ukraine as a proxy to fight russia? What would be the benefit to USA of that? As I said, Americans didn't give a thought to russia before they invaded Ukraine. I agree with you, USA gains nothing by being involved in a war against a nuclear power, or as some say "a gas station with a nuclear bomb". USA and Biden would be very happy if russia would go home and end the war.

Absolutely the US is using Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia. That's why there are no US boots on the ground there. That's why we are supplying Ukraine with weapons to hold off the Russian forces. The idea is to try to drain the Russian economy and ability to make war through a long and drawn out war in Ukraine. It's not US men and women dying there. It should be NOBODY dying there.

It's why there's been a limit put on the Ukrainian forces on how to attack Russia. It's why weapons like the fighter jets that Zelinsky has been asking for have been denied.

It's Biden standing toe to toe with Putin.

I don't usually waste my time responding to dis-information here, but I was concerned that some people might think you had some credibility. I'm not trying to be dis-respectful but I just don't understand where you are coming from.

The disinformation is what's being spoken on TV and in the newspapers and in the news bubbles people expose them to that support this war.

Again, it should never have happened. After Obama and Biden presidencies, there are a number of nations around the world that have their cities bombed to rubble, and it's an outright shame.

(Trump did continue with Obama's drone strikes - 10s of thousands of them, which is also a terrible legacy)

Libya, one example. And Libya was helping in the war on terror, though they had a despicable leader in Khadafi.

It's hard to fathom why a US president would pick a fight with a nuclear power. We're closer to nuclear war than ever, or at least as close to the Cuban Missile Crisis (read about it).

 

[riverman]

Make no mistake about it....it was Putin who picked a fight, not the US....standing up to bullies is not the same as provoking them. If you look at both sides you'll see atrocities from the Russian camp that show the true nature of Putin's attempts to rebuild the former Soviet Union and his tendency to assasinate all his detractors or political opponeents. Protecting NATOs borders is quite different from threatening nuclear war. There will be no nuclear war over this issue. That's just the paranoid being paranoid.Putin knows a nuclear conflict would end his regime and destroy Russia. Not liking the democratic party is one thing but using our NATO response as a political spin point is disingenuous. I certainly hope we hold up our promises to Taiwan as well. China nor Russia have nothing to gain from going to war with the United States. It's a death sentence to both countries.

 

[beast blazer]

Make no mistake about it....it was Putin who picked a fight, not the US....standing up to bullies is not the same as provoking them. If you look at both sides you'll see atrocities from the Russian camp that show the true nature of Putin's attempts to rebuild the former Soviet Union and his tendency to assasinate all his detractors or political opponeents. Protecting NATOs borders is quite different from threatening nuclear war. There will be no nuclear war over this issue. That's just the paranoid being paranoid.Putin knows a nuclear conflict would end his regime and destroy Russia.

Get your ass over there and fight.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

It has been Biden's full intention to admit Ukraine to NATO. That was the talk at the time when Putin started building up troops on the Ukraine border.

Look, in the early 1960s, Russia tried to put missiles in Cuba and president Kennedy blockaded Cuba and nearly forced a nuclear war over it. But it's OK for the US to not want missiles on its borders (90 miles way from Florida), but not for Russia?

I'm not at all pro Russia, I'm just saying you have to look at both sides since there are TWO SIDES in any conflict.

Russia invaded Crimea during Obama's term and Ukraine during Biden's. Whatever foreign policy they had towards Russia was an utter failure.



How do you expect him to respond to fighting words?

"Toe-to-toe" with him is picking a fight.

The Russia, Russia, Russia thing is a disproven theory that Russia and the Trump campaign colluded to win the election. The constant lies about this and assaults on Russia as our enemy sure fires up Biden's base.

You might want to look at what Trump did regarding Russia - the financial penalties put on the country and its oligarchs. And no, I'm not a Trump fan - I'm just being objective.

It's an ironic thing. The Republicans used to be anti-Russia/anti-communism and now it's Democrats who are assaulting and making war against Russia.



Ukraine being a NATO country would mean NATO missiles on Russia's border. There are missiles aimed at Russia in every other NATO country in Europe.

During the Cold War, the US and NATO had troops in West Berlin and West Germany to deter Russian aggression and it worked. These troops were not a threat to invade East Germany or East Berlin. Those troops would have been wiped out within minutes if Russia did invade. I hope you might see the difference.



The whole thing would have been avoided by:
1) Not talking a path for Ukraine in NATO or offering NATO membership to Russia (think about that one!)
2) Positioning American/NATO troops in Ukraine as we did in West Berlin and West Germany during the USSR days. Russia did not invade those two.
3) Saying "nothing is off the table."
4) Not saying things like "I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do." -- Joe Biden

War is hell. I don't wish it on Ukrainians, nor do I wish it on the Russian citizens who are needlessly fighting.



Absolutely the US is using Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia. That's why there are no US boots on the ground there. That's why we are supplying Ukraine with weapons to hold off the Russian forces. The idea is to try to drain the Russian economy and ability to make war through a long and drawn out war in Ukraine. It's not US men and women dying there. It should be NOBODY dying there.

It's why there's been a limit put on the Ukrainian forces on how to attack Russia. It's why weapons like the fighter jets that Zelinsky has been asking for have been denied.

It's Biden standing toe to toe with Putin.



The disinformation is what's being spoken on TV and in the newspapers and in the news bubbles people expose them to that support this war.

Again, it should never have happened. After Obama and Biden presidencies, there are a number of nations around the world that have their cities bombed to rubble, and it's an outright shame.

(Trump did continue with Obama's drone strikes - 10s of thousands of them, which is also a terrible legacy)

Libya, one example. And Libya was helping in the war on terror, though they had a despicable leader in Khadafi.

It's hard to fathom why a US president would pick a fight with a nuclear power. We're closer to nuclear war than ever, or at least as close to the Cuban Missile Crisis (read about it).

Maybe you are not pro-russia but you seem kind of anti-America. I am not a blind follower of USA policy. in fact I spent 18 months in prison because I believed our Viet Nam policy was bad for our country. but I will continue to believe our help for Ukraine is correct and good for world security. In no way do I think USA instigated this war or wants this war. Period.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

The US openly supported the ousting of Yanukovych. It's not my fault that you're so painfully ignorant. And no, the leaders of the Maidan coup were Neo-Nazis who began to oppress the ethnic Russians in the east who supported Yanukovych.

You've proven your ignorance over and over again with all your posts about how Ukraine is winning militarily. I've been saying for the last 2 years this was not the case, and have been proven correct.

Maybe one day you will come up with some facts instead of insulting the intelligence of everyone here?

 

[Everything Beagle]

Get your ass over there and fight.

Shut up when the adults are talking please

 

[Denny Crane]

Maybe you are not pro-russia but you seem kind of anti-America. I am not a blind follower of USA policy. in fact I spent 18 months in prison because I believed our Viet Nam policy was bad for our country. but I will continue to believe our help for Ukraine is correct and good for world security. In no way do I think USA instigated this war or wants this war. Period.

I am not anti-USA, just anti USA arming the world and starting wars and overthrowing governments.

I'll say it again. To make peace, you need to talk to your enemy. There are two sides and both need to be heard and taken into account.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/explainer-why-did-russia-invade-ukraine

EXPLAINER: Why Did Russia Invade Ukraine?
Experts say the cause of the military conflict can be tied to a complicated history, Russia’s tensions with NATO and the ambitions of Vladimir Putin.

Ukraine’s ambitions to align itself more with Western countries – including its publicly stated interest in joining NATO, which itself was founded at least in part to deter Soviet expansion – has been met with aggression from Russia, the council notes.

...

A principal demand of Russia is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, a military alliance between 29 European countries and two North American countries dedicated to preserving peace and security in the North Atlantic area. Ukraine is one of just a few countries in Eastern Europe that aren’t members of the alliance. The Kremlin in general views NATO expansion as a “fundamental concern,” according to a translated readout of a Jan. 28, 2022, call between Putin and French President Emmanuel Macron.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/stone-interviews-putin-says-asked-russia-joining-nato

In Stone interviews, Putin says he once asked about Russia joining NATO

MOSCOW — Russian President Vladimir Putin says that early on in his tenure he floated the idea of Russia joining NATO.

In a series of interviews with American film director Oliver Stone, Putin said he inquired about Russia joining the alliance when then U.S. President Bill Clinton visited Moscow in 2000.

“During the meeting I said: ‘Let’s consider an option that Russia might join NATO,'” Putin recalled. “Clinton said ‘Why not?’ But the U.S. delegation got very nervous.”

Putin had said in an interview several months before Clinton’s June 2000 visit that he wasn’t opposed to Russia joining the alliance, but his comment to Stone was the first public indication of his raising the issue.

In the segments, Putin portrays Russia under his leadership as seeking to improve ties, but frustrated by Washington’s “imperialist mentality.”

Despite Putin’s onetime interest in joining NATO, in the interviews he criticized the alliance for expanding eastward to Russia’s borders.

As I wrote earlier, inviting Russia to join NATO would definitely cool things down between Russia and the west. Why? Because we would be subject to article 5 to defend them just as we would be to defend any other member. And they would be partners, not the reason to have a NATO to protect against Russian actions.

Also, when our presidents want to go to war, like to destroy Libya, they don't go through the UN because they'd get vetoed or otherwise blowback. Instead, they go through NATO where the US can bully the members (who else will defend them in case of war?).

 

[riverman]

My understanding is that Russia wanted the eastern land bridge to the Black Sea, the ports and the rich farmlands in eastern Ukraine. Russia is sort of landlocked and eastern Ukraine is the gateway to the Meditteranean Sea via the Black Sea

 

[Denny Crane]

My understanding is that Russia wanted the eastern land bridge to the Black Sea, the ports and the rich farmlands in eastern Ukraine. Russia is sort of landlocked and eastern Ukraine is the gateway to the Meditteranean Sea via the Black Sea

They got a base in the Black Sea via a deal with Ukraine.

The whole Ukraine/Russia thing is a very old relationship. Like 1,000+ years old. For hundreds of years, Ukraine was part of Russia. There are MANY Russian/Russian speaking people in Ukraine - as you would expect. They voted in Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia (because so many people are Russians there). The vote was questionable, though it was held. Russia did not do a full scale invasion to take land from people who didn't want them.

Nuts to people who call me MAGA. I wouldn't vote for Trump, ever. I didn't either time he ran earlier.

I like people, even with brown skin. I favor an open border with an Ellis Island style immigration system. I am pro choice (for abortion for whatever reason a woman chooses). I am not at all opposed to trans people - in fact I hired many and supported them by holding open their jobs while they had "the surgery." I don't like republicans. I just don't like democrats either. I think republicans are morons and democrats are evil. I'm for non-interventionist foreign policy.

I wasn't kidding when I said I'd vote for RFJ Jr. He's not a republican. He's non interventionist. He has some weird beliefs, but don't we all?

 

[oldfisherman]

Putin has been pres or prime minister of Russia, since 1999.

1999, Putin invaded Chechen?, installing a pro Russia govt.

2008, Putin invaded Georgia. Part of Georgia is still under Russia's control.

2014, Putin invades Crimea.

2015, Putin sent a large force to Syria to fight in their cival war.

2022, Putin invades Ukraine.

Also, Putin has been very active in the 2018 central Africa cival wars, sending troops and supplies

And very active in the 2021 Mali war.

 

[Denny Crane]

Putin has been pres or prime minister of Russia, since 1999.

1999, Putin invaded Chechen?, installing a pro Russia govt.

2008, Putin invaded Georgia. Part of Georgia is still under Russia's control.

2014, Putin invades Crimea.

2015, Putin sent a large force to Syria to fight in their cival war.

2022, Putin invades Ukraine.

Also, Putin has been very active in the 2018 central Africa cival wars, sending troops and supplies

And very active in the 2021 Mali war.

And the US? Since 1999:

Iraq (multiple times), Somalia, Afghanistan (twice), Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, and recently Israel.

Those are direct involvement (us flying planes, dropping bombs, drones, invasion, and so on). Our weapons are used throughout the world where there are wars going on. Places like Ukraine, Israel, Afghanistan (we armed Bin Laden against Russian invasion in the 1980s)...

If you want to go back a little, you have Lebanon, Vietnam, Korea, and a whole lot of CIA overthrowing of governments in our hemisphere.

 

[oldfisherman]

And the US? Since 1999:

Iraq (multiple times), Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, and recently Israel.

If you want to go back a little, you have Lebanon, Vietnam, Korea, and a whole lot of CIA overthrowing of governments in our hemisphere.

Not the same.

Putin fights wars to take control of more land.

The only land the USA takes, is just enough to bury our dead. Heck, we no longer even take that land.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

They got a base in the Black Sea via a deal with Ukraine.

The whole Ukraine/Russia thing is a very old relationship. Like 1,000+ years old. For hundreds of years, Ukraine was part of Russia. There are MANY Russian/Russian speaking people in Ukraine - as you would expect. They voted in Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia (because so many people are Russians there). The vote was questionable, though it was held. Russia did not do a full scale invasion to take land from people who didn't want them.

Nuts to people who call me MAGA. I wouldn't vote for Trump, ever. I didn't either time he ran earlier.

I like people, even with brown skin. I favor an open border with an Ellis Island style immigration system. I am pro choice (for abortion for whatever reason a woman chooses). I am not at all opposed to trans people - in fact I hired many and supported them by holding open their jobs while they had "the surgery." I don't like republicans. I just don't like democrats either. I think republicans are morons and democrats are evil. I'm for non-interventionist foreign policy.

I wasn't kidding when I said I'd vote for RFJ Jr. He's not a republican. He's non interventionist. He has some weird beliefs, but don't we all?

I don't know. you keep saying you are not pro-russian but you keep putting out stuff that echoes russian propaganda. Just a reminder. USA did not arm Ukraine except with a few broken down hummers until a few days before russia's second invasion in 2022 when they gave out some shoulder fired anti tank guns. You kind of imply that USA arms countries that would be threatening to russia. Then you quote Putin, a man who was trained in the KGB to lie and is a proven liar. Do you dispute that he is a proven liar and assassin? That's just weird for me.
As for Crimea. I was there. No one disputes that members of the Crimean parliament were rounded up at gun point and forced to ask for a referendum. The people of Crimea did not ask for a referendum. Maybe they voted for it, who knows? I know that I and lot of other people were already on trains heading into mainland Ukraine because we understood the violent and sadistic nature of the people taking over. The people who were left also understood the nature of the people supervising the referendum. They did not trust that their votes would be secret.
Let me ask you something else, If Mexican troops took over parts of Texas that contained majority of people of Mexican descent, and then held a referendum to secede from USA, would you think that would be OK?
I gotta ask you one more thing. Did you vociferously oppose USA entry into Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanaistan at that time?
I don't enjoy this back and forth in a forum that is barely read. I spend my time at other places sharing information with people from all over the world who want to understand this conflict and want to help Ukraine.. I only responded because I think somebody like you might have some credibility with some readers here. I feel like you post mis-leading information and I have responded to that. If you can find any misleading information that I have posted in my many posts here, I would like to see that.

 

[Denny Crane]

Not the same.

Putin fights wars to take control of more land.

The only land the USA takes, is just enough to bury our dead. Heck, we no long even take that land.

We invaded and kept troops in two countries for over a decade.

"Nation building." Install friendly governments to ourselves (Shah of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan).

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I don't know. you keep saying you are not pro-russian but you keep putting out stuff that echoes russian propaganda. Just a reminder. USA did not arm Ukraine except with a few broken down hummers until a few days before russia's second invasion in 2022 when they gave out some shoulder fired anti tank guns. You kind of imply that USA arms countries that would be threatening to russia. Then you quote Putin, a man who was trained in the KGB to lie and is a proven liar. Do you dispute that he is a proven liar and assassin? That's just weird for me.
As for Crimea. I was there. No one disputes that members of the Crimean parliament were rounded up at gun point and forced to ask for a referendum. The people of Crimea did not ask for a referendum. Maybe they voted for it, who knows? I know that I and lot of other people were already on trains heading into mainland Ukraine because we understood the violent and sadistic nature of the people taking over. The people who were left also understood the nature of the people supervising the referendum. They did not trust that their votes would be secret.
Let me ask you something else, If Mexican troops took over parts of Texas that contained majority of people of Mexican descent, and then held a referendum to secede from USA, would you think that would be OK?
I gotta ask you one more thing. Did you vociferously oppose USA entry into Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanaistan at that time?
I don't enjoy this back and forth in a forum that is barely read. I spend my time at other places sharing information with people from all over the world who want to understand this conflict and want to help Ukraine.. I only responded because I think somebody like you might have some credibility with some readers here. I feel like you post mis-leading information and I have responded to that. If you can find any misleading information that I have posted in my many posts here, I would like to see that.

Just to follow up, so I can be done with this. I am not going to respond to your posts any longer, nor will I read them. I hope people have sense enough to see the information in them is not of use. You are welcome to have the last word.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't know. you keep saying you are not pro-russian but you keep putting out stuff that echoes russian propaganda. Just a reminder. USA did not arm Ukraine except with a few broken down hummers until a few days before russia's second invasion in 2022 when they gave out some shoulder fired anti tank guns. You kind of imply that USA arms countries that would be threatening to russia. Then you quote Putin, a man who was trained in the KGB to lie and is a proven liar. Do you dispute that he is a proven liar and assassin? That's just weird for me.
As for Crimea. I was there. No one disputes that members of the Crimean parliament were rounded up at gun point and forced to ask for a referendum. The people of Crimea did not ask for a referendum. Maybe they voted for it, who knows? I know that I and lot of other people were already on trains heading into mainland Ukraine because we understood the violent and sadistic nature of the people taking over. The people who were left also understood the nature of the people supervising the referendum. They did not trust that their votes would be secret.
Let me ask you something else, If Mexican troops took over parts of Texas that contained majority of people of Mexican descent, and then held a referendum to secede from USA, would you think that would be OK?
I gotta ask you one more thing. Did you vociferously oppose USA entry into Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanaistan at that time?
I don't enjoy this back and forth in a forum that is barely read. I spend my time at other places sharing information with people from all over the world who want to understand this conflict and want to help Ukraine.. I only responded because I think somebody like you might have some credibility with some readers here. I feel like you post mis-leading information and I have responded to that. If you can find any misleading information that I have posted in my many posts here, I would like to see that.

There is talk about Texas and California seceding, as well as part of Oregon.

I was near age to be drafted when Vietnam war ended. I was very much opposed, and likely would have gone to Canada rather than go kill people who have done me no wrong.