Politics Ukraine / Russia (11 Viewers)

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jonnyboy said:
I didn’t compare him to anyone else. Corrupt is corrupt.
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If he's no more corrupt than his peers, yet is doing well on things his peers are not it seems you might be lacking a valid point...

At this point I'd say he's vastly superior to our last president. Even if that is a low bar...
 
jonnyboy said:
Ok, I’ll bite. Zelensky is corrupt as fuck like the rest of them. I guess nobody wanted to point it out. Make no mistake here, the blood is on Putin’s hands right now, he’s on the offensive. But to sit back and pretend this isn’t an example of failed, horrendous leadership on all sides is foolish. Everyone knew Russia would attack after so many warnings, they’ve done so in the past. There was a diplomatic solution here and Zelensky chose to use his people as humans shields against a guy they 100% KNEW would attack them instead.
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What? Let Putin take Ukraine?
 
jonnyboy said:
Not continually expanding NATO on their borders after repeatedly promising not to. And btw, before everyone gets their “traitor/treason” pitchforks out, I’m not defending Putin. I’m simply recognizing that when a person that hard headed says they will attack, they will attack. Is it really worth fucking with over a NATO good ol boy card? Is it worth YOUR children’s lives? It sure as fuck isn’t worth mine.
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They are fighting for their country just like we would fight for ours if we were invaded. Yes, to them their freedom is worth dying for.
 
Phatguysrule said:
If he's no more corrupt than his peers, yet is doing well on things his peers are not it seems you might be lacking a valid point...

At this point I'd say he's vastly superior to our last president. Even if that is a low bar...
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His country is at war. The capital is feared to fall. He’s trying to convince his people to battle in the streets. He’s refusing diplomacy against an evil superpower out of sheer stubbornness. He’s putting his people’s lives at risk. What’s he doing good on? How low is your bar? I realize much of this is the fault of the US and NATO for encouraging them and then basically saying “good luck” when the shit actually went down, but good god, how naive can a leader be? We’ve seen this play in this region before.
 
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jonnyboy said:
His country is at war. The capital is feared to fall. He’s trying to convince his people to battle in the streets. He’s refusing diplomacy against an evil superpower out of sheer stubbornness. He’s putting his people’s lives at risk. What’s he doing good on? How low is your bar? I realize much of this is the fault of the US and NATO for encouraging them and then basically saying “good luck” when the shit actually went down, but good god, how naive can a guy be? We’ve seen this play in this region before.
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Well... His people don't seem to want him to cave... Every Ukrainian I've seen agrees with the course of action he's taken and do not want to ve governed by anybody else. Certainly not Putin.

They'd rather die. And he's going down with them if they go down (as they likely will).

I don't think Trump or Biden would be as honorable. They'd already be in exile out of the reach of Russia, IMO.

In fact, they would have likely caved long before, sold out their country, and gotten rich in the process.
 
Chris Craig said:
They are fighting for their country just like we would fight for ours if we were invaded. Yes, to them their freedom is worth dying for.
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There were precursors to all of this. The blood is on Russia’s hands absolutely, but they repeatedly said they would do it. Over and over again. Why tempt the psycho and risk your people’s lives? There were diplomatic ways around this.
 
jonnyboy said:
His country is at war. The capital is feared to fall. He’s trying to convince his people to battle in the streets. He’s refusing diplomacy against an evil superpower out of sheer stubbornness. He’s putting his people’s lives at risk. What’s he doing good on? How low is your bar? I realize much of this is the fault of the US and NATO for encouraging them and then basically saying “good luck” when the shit actually went down, but good god, how naive can a leader be? We’ve seen this play in this region before.
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We were outnumbered against England many years ago, yet we fought on for freedom, ready to die for it.
 
jonnyboy said:
His country is at war. The capital is feared to fall. He’s trying to convince his people to battle in the streets. He’s refusing diplomacy against an evil superpower out of sheer stubbornness. He’s putting his people’s lives at risk. What’s he doing good on? How low is your bar? I realize much of this is the fault of the US and NATO for encouraging them and then basically saying “good luck” when the shit actually went down, but good god, how naive can a leader be? We’ve seen this play in this region before.
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So if China and Russia teamed up and invaded us your stance would be to give up and negotiate?
 
Phatguysrule said:
Every Ukrainian I've seen agrees with the course of action he's taken
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How many Ukrainians have you bumped into lately? You also have to realize Ukraine is pretty divided in it’s east-west portions amongst pro Russian and pro European mindsets. It’s not exactly a unified country rallying for a common goal, which complicates things immensely.
 
jonnyboy said:
How many Ukrainians have you bumped into lately? You also have to realize Ukraine is pretty divided in it’s east-west portions amongst pro Russian and pro European mindsets. It’s not exactly a unified country rallying for a common goal, which complicates things immensely.
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I've seen very public posts on many outlets by dozens, maybe hundreds, in the last few days.

Not one has blamed or disagreed with Zelensky.
 
I can't cheer for dead Russian soldiers. They don't benefit from invasion, just suffer from it.

Remember when even asking a question about Iraq war was siding with terrorists?
Of course that was a Republican president.
 
jonnyboy said:
How many Ukrainians have you bumped into lately? You also have to realize Ukraine is pretty divided in it’s east-west portions amongst pro Russian and pro European mindsets. It’s not exactly a unified country rallying for a common goal, which complicates things immensely.
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This is straight up Russian propaganda comrade. There is no even divide. The east has some pro Russian groups but they are sponsored by Russia, Ukraine was in the process of finally expunging them and that's why Putin invaded, he knew his grasp was slipping away
 
Putin will get exactly what he wants and thats a puppet government in Ukraine and a buffer between Moscow and NATO. Then he will back off, extend diplomacy, make his world tour & save some customers.
 
I believe Putin is afraid Ukraine will be incorporated into NATO. That's the gambit here. Convincing him otherwise may be a good starting point towards peace.
 
jonnyboy said:
Aside from this being complete conspiracy nonsense, how is it relevant?
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SlyPokerDog said:
It is also critical to note Trump has almost unanimous GOP support and cover for all of this and Republicans like Moscow Mitch were already knee deep with Russian collusion through the NRA. Now Russian Times is using Trump and Fox News soundbites to further propagandize this war to their citizens.

  • Impeached for illegally witholding Ukraine military aid, already appropriated to them by Congress, unless they made up political dirt on Biden. Specifically Ukraine was asking for the Javelin anti-tank systems that are now helping them fend off Russian advancements.
  • Praised Putin constantly, called him a "strong leader", has peddled statements like "he's done a really great job outsmarting our country"
  • Trump dismissed and cast doubt about Russian hacking, particularly when the U.S determined that Russia hacked the DNC in 2016, while ironically enough, he encouraged Russian cyber attacks on national TV saying, "Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,"
  • When addressing Russian election interference and cyber attacks, Trump proclaimed "I don't see any reason why it would be Russia" after speaking directly with Putin, defending Russia and trusting Putin over our own intelligence agencies. Later he "corrected" himself, claiming that he meant to say "wouldn't" instead of would.
  • Trump suggested the U.S. work directly with Russia on cybersecurity. Trump refused to punish or critique the SolarWinds hack.
  • Almost directly after the 2016 election, Trump sought to weaken U.S. sanctions on Russia, while he was even open to lifting sanctions.
  • Trump dismissed the notion that Putin was a "killer", downplaying the idea that Putin resorts to using violence and oppressive tactics to crush political opponents. He defended Putin, rationalizing his ruthless despotism in the process, declaring, "There are a lot of killers. Do you think our country is so innocent?"
  • Trump shared highly classified U.S. intelligence with Russian officials in the Oval Office in 2017.
  • Trump repeated Kremlin talking points related to the Russian annexation of Crimea, reiterating things like, "The people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were."
  • Trump constantly attacked NATO, aligning himself with Putin. (quite relevant)
  • Trump thanked Putin for expelling hundreds of U.S. diplomats as a retaliation for sanctions.
  • Trump refused to make a statement about the 10th anniversary of the Russia-Georgia war. According to John Bolton, European leaders noticed Trump's silence and "became even more concerned about American resolve."
  • According to congressional testimony, Trump declined to publicly condemn a Russian attack against Ukrainian military vessels in November 2018, even though the State Department prepared a statement for him
  • Trump congratulated and gave legitimacy to Putin's re election win in 2018, a victory said to "lack genuine competition"
  • Sergei Skripal, an ex Russian spy that defected to the UK, was poisoned. Sanctions were announced, Trump attempted to rescind them, while asserting that the U.S. was being "too tough on Putin"
  • When congress passed new sanctions against Russia in 2017, Trump was very reluctant to signing the bill, and probably wouldn't have signed it if the bill didn't pass with veto-proof majorities in both houses
  • In 2017 it was reported that Trump was considering returning spy bases to Russia.
  • Trump praised and highlighted pro-Russian leaders in Europe. Far right European leaders with close ties to Putin. He even met a Kremlin ally at the Whitehouse.
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ABM said:
I believe Putin is afraid Ukraine will be incorporated into NATO. That's the gambit here. Convincing him otherwise may be a good starting point towards peace.
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Putin has already made his mind up about what he’s going to do and how he’s going to do it. The guy is bat shit crazy like Trump and Kim Jong-un. Once you try and start convincing people like that it just makes them more angry and determined.
 
donkiez said:
This is straight up Russian propaganda comrade. There is no even divide. The east has some pro Russian groups but they are sponsored by Russia, Ukraine was in the process of finally expunging them and that's why Putin invaded, he knew his grasp was slipping away
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Who said even divide? The eastern portion is smaller in landmass, but when you have enough pro Russian people there to form entire breakaway regions it’s more than just a small group. It’s an entire portion of the country. Many of those people are physically close to Russia and identify as Russian. They literally used to live in Russia as Ukraine has literally only been a country for 30 years. I don’t know if that necessarily means they love Putin, or even hate Ukraine. It probably has more to do with hundreds of years of family history. I’m sure there were plenty of Mexicans who still identified as such 30 years after that war, despite living in the new state of “Texas”. Western Ukraine has it’s reasons for wanting to be part of Europe just the same. I’m not choosing sides, but it’s certainly more complicated than it’s being made out to be.
 
Also, the way eastern Ukrainians are “expelled” isn’t something to be proud of. I don’t know if Zelenskyy using neo Nazi groups as muscle is very upstanding either. But what do I know?
 
donkiez said:
So if China and Russia teamed up and invaded us your stance would be to give up and negotiate?
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Um, yes. My stance would be to negotiate rather than going to war with two superpowers.

You’re joking, right?

If problems come to my door I’m fighting, absolutely. But I want that shit to end a soon as possible also.
 
The eastern Ukrainians are most certainly not living under oppression by Ukraines government. Up until Putin took charge there was free flowing movement between neighbors, families and friends. Putin has created a separatist group over the years as a means to keep Ukraine under distress and unable to be part of NATO and an excuse to engage with all of Ukraine in the current conflict. Now all of Ukraine risks living under oppression of a Russian puppet regime.
 
jonnyboy said:
Um, yes. My stance would be to negotiate rather than going to war with two superpowers.

You’re joking, right?

If problems come to my door I’m fighting, absolutely. But I want that shit to end a soon as possible also.
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That's very patriotic of you. I assume you will enjoy the freedum an installed puppet regime will offer you. I would not
 
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