Politics Ukraine / Russia

[Orion Bailey]

Whoa...taking a leap there. You guys and your analogies.

Look,

We have not minimized the crimes of people living in ghettos. We have used the oppressive environment in which they live to understand why they might have been driven to commit crimes.

People from the ghetto who get charged for crimes often get much stiffer sentences than those who live elsewhere, sometimes 5 or ten times the sentence. That's not minimizing the crime.


We can do the same with Russian soldiers in regards to understanding why they might of out of fear for their lives put on fatigues and went off to war.

While we can understand what has led people either from the ghetto or the Russian army to kill others, it is not simply excused in either case.

I agree with most of that. Again. There is no winner. No winner in the ghetto and no winner in war, but we must also try to understand the situation the soldiers are in. I do not believe they should be accountable for something like this. This isn't raping civilians, etc. I believe the leaders and generals who orchestrate their soldiers to do such actions are the ones to be held responsible. Or much more responsible. I'm not saying let the soldiers go. But its the ones giving the orders that I think hold much more responsibility for something like this.

 

[Chris Craig]

The US Wants Poland to give it to the Ukraine.

Poland wants to give them to the US to give to the Ukraine.

No one wants to take responsibility.

Just leave them parked halfway across the border and if Ukraine takes them...well they take them.

 

[calvin natt]

You don't run up on the enemy. Period. You take the chance of being fired upon.

We will see if the event is tried as a war crime. I already answered the seven year olds backpack. same answer as the mother with a stroller. Apples to oranges. A kid with a backpack has to get up close to the tank. The car can drive fast. Your comparison is not the same.

Its news because its propaganda, much like 90 of the news. Gimme a break with the news. That's just head in sand mentality listening to the media.

Constantly being biased must raise the blood pressure alot.

Propaganda lol. Everything is just propaganda. Even if you can see it happen or hear it and know it factually happened it’s just the media brainwashing us. Got it. Defending Russia again is gross. Pathetic

 

[Orion Bailey]

They didn't run up on the tank.

Watch the video again.



They saw the tank approaching from a side road and stopped.

Tank opened small arms fire, the car was still stopped.

Then the tank fired with its main gun killing them.

Second shot is overkill no doubt, but you are talking about half a second life or death decision making. The tank could think they are stopping to pull out a rocket launcher and fire. The scenarios are multiple. My point is to pass such judgment on the tank is not fair in a wartime situation. Run up on , driving towards, semantics. Sadly, life and death semantics, but they were moving towards the enemy. They didn't turn thier vehicles in an attempt to turn around. they stopped straight. They could have easily been slowing down and setting up to fire, but the tank beat them to it.

The car could have flipped a bitch, but didn't. In war you don't take chances. the driver of the car did, the tank didn't. Its war.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Oh so simple to say not, living under the oppression of such a guy like Putin. You don't think soldiers have the fear of execution for not following orders? And when the orders are vague, it leads to confusion. They are going to do what it takes to survive including avoiding execution frfom their leader, for treason. However wrong their leader is.

I don't care. The civilan car is in its own country. The tank is not. There is no reason for Russia to be there so every soldier following Putin's orders can die. That's the best possible outcome from this whole thing, other than Russian soldiers turning on Putin and overthrowing him.

I'm not talking in hypotheticals, just the reality of the situation. I support the Ukrainians killing every russian soldier on their soil.

I do not support any act of any Russian soldier other than fighting against Putin.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Propaganda lol. Everything is just propaganda. Even if you can see it happen or hear it and know it factually happened it’s just the media brainwashing us. Got it. Defending Russia again is gross. Pathetic

No one is defending russia. go back and read the posts. but nice try again with the insults. The only thing pathetic around here is your selective reading skills and better than thou attitude.

Now get on your high horse and ride the fuck into the sunset there ranger. LOL

 

[Phatguysrule]

So now compare this to the stance for our poverty stricken citizens living in the ghetto. We have minimized their crimes using their situation as an excuse. Why does this not hold same for the soldiers over there living somewhat the same type of lack of choice life those in our ghettos do?

Compassion for those in dire situations need to be universal and not subjected to homeland proximity. The soldiers fighting under Putin's regime are not much different that those in the ghetto who commit crimes to get out. Victims of the situation. But I assure you. The risk of death for disobedience for them runs much much higher than the risk of death the average man in the ghetto faces.

Nobody wants the homeless to get away with crimes. Nobody supports that.

 

[Chris Craig]

They didn't run up on the tank.

Watch the video again.



They saw the tank approaching from a side road and stopped.

Tank opened small arms fire, the car was still stopped.

Then the tank fired with its main gun killing them.

Those people were screwed. The other tank was coming around the corner and would have taken them out if they made it past the other.

It's easy to say hey if your country is at war don't drive towards where tanks are, but they might not have even seen it, they for sure didn't see the one coming around the corner. Plus, tanks are everywhere so you can't really drive in any direction without running into one probably.

Russia was supposed to allow a safe corridor for civilians who wanted to leave, but they went back on their agreement to do so, deciding to kill more civilians instead.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I don't care. The civilan car is in its own country. The tank is not. There is no reason for Russia to be there so every soldier following Putin's orders can die. That's the best possible outcome from this whole thing, other than Russian soldiers turning on Putin and overthrowing him.

I'm not talking in hypotheticals, just the reality of the situation. I support the Ukrainians killing every russian soldier on their soil.

I do not support any act of any Russian soldier other than fighting against Putin.

You have a point that the civilian car is in their own country. That holds weight.

But some soldiers may be there because they fear death to begin with, so in your sceneario, is die or die for them? Man... thats rough.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Nobody wants the homeless to get away with crimes. Nobody supports that.

Care to point out where I said people want homeless to get away with crimes? Nobody said that.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You have a point that the civilian car is in their own country. That holds weight.

But some soldiers may be there because they fear death to begin with, so in your sceneario, is die or die for them? Man... thats rough.

No. Killing somebody because you are afraid to die is cowardly when you have other options. Abandon your post. Go fight with the Ukrainians instead. Sabatage your Russian equipment.

There are too many other options for Russian soldiers to get a pass.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Second shot is overkill no doubt, but you are talking about half a second life or death decision making. The tank could think they are stopping to pull out a rocket launcher and fire. The scenarios are multiple. My point is to pass such judgment on the tank is not fair in a wartime situation. Run up on , driving towards, semantics. Sadly, life and death semantics, but they were moving towards the enemy. They didn't turn thier vehicles in an attempt to turn around. they stopped straight. They could have easily been slowing down and setting up to fire, but the tank beat them to it.

The car could have flipped a bitch, but didn't. In war you don't take chances. the driver of the car did, the tank didn't. Its war.

You're the one who continually gives examples that gives the tank a pass. Driving toward the tank. Stopped in the road. Turning around. According to you anything and everything that couple did or could have done justify them being killed.

Sorry, but there is no justification for killing those people.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No. Killing somebody because you are afraid to die is cowardly when you have other options. Abandon your post. Go fight with the Ukrainians instead. Sabatage your Russian equipment.

There are too many other options for Russian soldiers to get a pass.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think they get as free pass. I just think the focus of penalties should be on those pulling the strings.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Care to point out where I said people want homeless to get away with crimes? Nobody said that.

We have minimized their crimes using their situation as an excuse.

Nobody wants that. Our police are unable/unwilling to enforce the law because we have chosen to let the problem get out of hand.

These situations are not the same at all.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You're the one who continually gives examples that gives the tank a pass. Driving toward the tank. Stopped in the road. Turning around. According to you anything and everything that couple did or could have done justify them being killed.

Sorry, but there is no justification for killing those people.

Noo. You obviously didnt read my post correctly. Please reread it. I said if they DID pull a uturn, then the tank shouldn't have fired at all. Turning around would be different than slowing down and stopping. It would be a sign they were trying to leave, not potentially slow down to take aim.

Please get what I say straight if you are going to say things like that. Because that isn't what I said.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think they get as free pass. I just think the focus of penalties should be on those pulling the strings.

No. You kill innocent people you can just die. Simple as that.

 

[Natebishop3]

Simple rules of engagement that the US military has lived by for decades.

Do not fire until fired upon.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Nobody wants that. Our police are unable/unwilling to enforce the law because we have chosen to let the problem get out of hand.

These situations are not the same at all.

I don't necessarily disagree, however the situations remain the same for those affected. And if you notice, I said minimized, not get away with. Big difference there. If we are going to discuss, lets please at least be ac curate in what we quote of each other.

The narrative for the poverty stricken criminals is the environment breeds them. I'm simply saying that is similar to thew soldiers fighting over there. Russia has bred therm. They aren't the main people to be at fault. The breeders are.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Noo. You obviously didnt read my post correctly. Please reread it. I said if they DID pull a uturn, then the tank shouldn't have fired at all. Turning around would be different than slowing down and stopping. It would be a sign they were trying to leave, not potentially slow down to take aim.

Please get what I say straight if you are going to say things like that. Because that isn't what I said.

I did read your post correctly. I was referring to another post of yours where you said suddenly turning around could mean a person could have "sinister intentions."

So according to you, if the car had tried to u-turn the tank could assume they were up to something bad.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I did read your post correctly. I was referring to another post of yours where you said suddenly turning around could mean a person could have "sinister intentions."

So according to you, if the car had tried to u-turn the tank could assume they were up to something bad.

Ahh okay. I think i mistyped that then. I think i meant if they tried to uturn it would mean they dont have sinister intentions.

One is trying to get away. One is coming at the enemy.

I didnt type the earlier post correctly I think.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Ahh okay. I think i mistyped that then. I think i meant if they tried to uturn it would mean they dont have sinister intentions.

One is trying to get away. One is coming at the enemy.

I didnt type the earlier post correctly I think.

But they weren't coming at the enemy. They were stopped. And according to you the tank didn't have enough time to see if the car stopping was in fact because they could have a bazooka or start catapulting ninjas out their sunroof. But the tank was justified in shooting them because they didn't instantly turn around instead of stopping.

You're working way too hard to justify a horrific and wrong action.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't necessarily disagree, however the situations remain the same for those affected. And if you notice, I said minimized, not get away with. Big difference there. If we are going to discuss, lets please at least be ac curate in what we quote of each other.

The narrative for the poverty stricken criminals is the environment breeds them. I'm simply saying that is similar to thew soldiers fighting over there. Russia has bred therm. They aren't the main people to be at fault. The breeders are.

It's not similar. Nobody wants the homeless punished less or more than anybody else.

We want the Russian soldiers punished for their war crimes like attacking innocent civilian vehicles which posed no discernable threat. Also, I want them punished for invading Ukraine and not fighting against Putin.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Orion Bailey]

But they weren't coming at the enemy. They were stopped. And according to you the tank didn't have enough time to see if the car stopping was in fact because they could have a bazooka or start catapulting ninjas out their sunroof. But the tank was justified in shooting them because they didn't instantly turn around instead of stopping.

You're working way too hard to justify a horrific and wrong action.

I'm saying its a split second life and death situation. I think you and some others here are working way too hard to make this more horrific than it is. It is the fallout of war. when in life and death situations without full knowledge decisions are often made and then looked at later to see a better choice may have existed, but not brought to conscious soon enough before one felt they had to choose or die.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's not similar. Nobody wants the homeless punished less or more than anybody else.

We want the Russian soldiers punished for their war crimes like attacking innocent civilian vehicles which posed no discernible threat. Also, I want them punished for invading Ukraine and not fighting against Putin.

You keep saying homeless. That's a small percentage of the poverty stricken. Ghettos have homes with people in them. There is much more to it than just the homeless. The homeless arent the ones rolling up on stores in cars and jumping out and robbing them.

and if one says there havent been excuses to minimize this behavior, by some, then thats just false.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You keep saying homeless. That's a small percentage of the poverty stricken. Ghettos have homes with people in them. There is much more to it than just the homeless. The homeless arent the ones rolling up on stores in cars and jumping out and robbing them.

and if one says there havent been excuses to minimize this behavior, by some, then thats just false.

Nope. No excuse for that behavior. Please post the quote, as I don't believe I've seen that.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I think you and some others here are working way too hard to make this more horrific than it is.

If that doesn't fit your definition of horrific I guess there isn't much more for us to discuss.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'm saying its a split second life and death situation. I think you and some others here are working way too hard to make this more horrific than it is. It is the fallout of war. when in life and death situations without full knowledge decisions are often made and then looked at later to see a better choice may have existed, but not brought to conscious soon enough before one felt they had to choose or die.

Invading a country and shooting its civilians with a tank is as horrific as it gets.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Bad....ass!