Politics Ukraine / Russia (3 Viewers)

[jonnyboy]

Sorry. I don't think Russia should be able to choose if Ukraine has dealings with NATO or if Ukraine joins NATO.

Ukraine is not in NATO, but Russia has been aggressive to Ukraine for years.

Russia invaded Ukraine. The war would end tomorrow if Russia went home.

Yes, the war is unnecessary. Yes, Russia can stop invading it's neighbor at any time. Yes, Russia should absolutely do this.

But Ukraine is right to defend themselves and I applaud their efforts and I hope the US continues to fund their self defense efforts until Russia withdraws.

And yes. Kennedy is an idiot (or possibly a shyster) I would never support.

Still avoiding addressing any of the claims he made though lol.
What’s the point of saying the same thing post after post after post? Your only defense in regards to the blatant corruption and money laundering is to say Russia is bad like a skipping record, like that somehow justifies it all.

 

[HansenYang]

Thoughts?

He's correct here.
Of course many don't want to hear or acknowledge his statements.

The military industrial complex is the biggest blight on our society as a whole.... but it's all because of our fiat money system. If we had money that was backed by ANYTHING real, then we couldn't spend trillions of dollars on endless wars year after year.

 

[HansenYang]

Sorry. I don't think Russia should be able to choose if Ukraine has dealings with NATO or if Ukraine joins NATO.

Ukraine is not in NATO, but Russia has been aggressive to Ukraine for years.

Russia invaded Ukraine. The war would end tomorrow if Russia went home.

Yes, the war is unnecessary. Yes, Russia can stop invading it's neighbor at any time. Yes, Russia should absolutely do this.

But Ukraine is right to defend themselves and I applaud their efforts and I hope the US continues to fund their self defense efforts until Russia withdraws.

And yes. Kennedy is an idiot (or possibly a shyster) I would never support.

How is the buildup to the Ukraine war (pre-invation) any different than Russia working with Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis? I'm not seeing much difference.

The major difference is the outcome. Kennedy was able to control the situation a bit better, and allow for cooler heads to prevail... While Putin went to war.

But the buildup to the situations are similar. Russia advancing interests into a neighboring country (Cuba) compared to NATO advancing interests into an neighboring country (Ukraine).


I'm all for Ukraine being able to defend themselves here... but let's not pretend that NATO and the US have had significant influence in leading up to the war.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Still avoiding addressing any of the claims he made though lol.
What’s the point of saying the same thing post after post after post? Your only defense in regards to the blatant corruption and money laundering is to say Russia is bad like a skipping record, like that somehow justifies it all.

The rest is irrelevant to my support of Ukraine. I believe the Pentagon should be audited. I believe they should be held to higher financial and environmental standards.

I have no faith that Kennedy would address any of that.

His claims are claims. But they are irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Phatguysrule]

How is the buildup to the Ukraine war (pre-invation) any different than Russia working with Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis? I'm not seeing much difference.

The major difference is the outcome. Kennedy was able to control the situation a bit better, and allow for cooler heads to prevail... While Putin went to war.

But the buildup to the situations are similar. Russia advancing interests into a neighboring country (Cuba) compared to NATO advancing interests into an neighboring country (Ukraine).


I'm all for Ukraine being able to defend themselves here... but let's not pretend that NATO and the US have had significant influence in leading up to the war.

I don't have much of a problem with anything other that Russia invading Ukrainian territory and killing civilians.

The rest is all geopolitics.

Russia invaded Ukraine. I support funding Ukraine killing as many Russian soldiers as it takes to get them out.

 

[jonnyboy]

The rest is irrelevant to my support of Ukraine. I believe the Pentagon should be audited. I believe they should be held to higher financial and environmental standards.

I have no faith that Kennedy would address any of that.

His claims are claims. But they are irrelevant to this thread.

American tax money being laundered under the guise of aid to a corrupt country in a war for profit is quite relevant to this thread. It being personally uncomfortable for you to address doesn’t necessarily make it irrelevant. It just means you don’t care about the facts on that side of it. Which is fine btw, but just say so rather than suggesting it is somehow a no-no to talk about.

 

[barfo]

How is the buildup to the Ukraine war (pre-invation) any different than Russia working with Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis? I'm not seeing much difference.

The major difference is the outcome. Kennedy was able to control the situation a bit better, and allow for cooler heads to prevail... While Putin went to war.

But the buildup to the situations are similar. Russia advancing interests into a neighboring country (Cuba) compared to NATO advancing interests into an neighboring country (Ukraine).


I'm all for Ukraine being able to defend themselves here... but let's not pretend that NATO and the US have had significant influence in leading up to the war.

Uhm, no. You are trying to obfuscate by saying 'advancing interests', but in fact there is an enormous difference between moving nuclear weapons vs. talking about maybe becoming allies some day. We didn't try to move any nukes into Ukraine.

The situations aren't similar at all.

barfo

 

[barfo]

American tax money being laundered under the guise of aid to a corrupt country in a war for profit is quite relevant to this thread. It being personally uncomfortable for you to address doesn’t necessarily make it irrelevant. It just means you don’t care about the facts on that side of it. Which is fine btw, but just say so rather than suggesting it is somehow a no-no to talk about.

It's great to care about corruption, waste, fraud, abuse, etc.
It's wrong to act like that's the only thing that matters, and and the only reason for any foreign policy.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

American tax money being laundered under the guise of aid to a corrupt country in a war for profit is quite relevant to this thread. It being personally uncomfortable for you to address doesn’t necessarily make it irrelevant. It just means you don’t care about the facts on that side of it. Which is fine btw, but just say so rather than suggesting it is somehow a no-no to talk about.

It's happening regardless of the war. It's not at all uncomfortable for me to talk about, but it has no bearing on my desire to support Ukraine.

It's irrelevant. You want to start a thread on solutions to the military industrial complex, feel free to make one. I'm sure I'll chime in.

It's just a distraction in this thread. I want to support Ukraine with or without corruption in military industrial spending.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Voodoo]

Just go fight in Ukraine already bud. They are taking Americans to fight. You won’t get turned down.

That’s the whole point you are missing, I am supporting them so neither I, nor any other American have to fight in Ukraine. This post is full of ignorance, history has taught us, twice, that isolationism results in the US getting dragged into war. You’re supremely naive or ignorant of history to ignore that fact.

The world has had to abide by American rules that we’ve enforced, either with military force or with soft power, since 1945. Allowing Russia to conquer Ukraine would essentially be giving every madman the green light to ignore the rules that we’ve put in place that benefit us. The consequences would not end with Ukraine, and it’s easily predictable what that would mean looking into the future. It would be catastrophic for our standard of living, and would be absolutely devastating for average working class Americans.

 

[Voodoo]

Thoughts?

This is not news to anyone educated, war leads to massive profits for the arms manufacturers. Anyone with any kind of historical reference will understand that war is bad and should be avoided at all costs. But the best deterrence is having a strong military, and better yet a strong alliance.

What he’s saying has some truth, but is completely ignoring the truth that the world is full of lunatics like Putin who have warped views of the world. History is chock full of examples from Hitler to Ghengis Khan. What Kennedy is forgetting is that providing arms to Ukraine might seem expensive, but not providing arms and helping them will be vastly more expensive in the future.

Other bad actors will have been emboldened by our inaction and attack countries that impact our economy much more so than Ukraine. To put it into perspective, when Russia attacked Ukraine it helped fuel our inflation due to the costs of both oil and grains going up as a result of sanctions on Russia and disruption of supply chains in Ukraine.

If China attacks Taiwan, which if we stop supporting Ukraine is a near certainty. The supply for microchips used it virtually every product we use would be completely annihilated instantly. Our entire economy would be impacted and it would likely lead to sanctions on China, etc, which would further destroy our economy. This is not just about Ukraine, think a few steps ahead.

Is what Kennedy is saying true? Yes, partially, which is why avoiding conflicts that are unnecessary is important. But the conflict in Ukraine is not like the 2003 Iraq war in which we initiated it unprovoked. This is more akin to supporting the Afghans during the Soviet invasion in the 80s.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Mongolia's former president mocks Putin with a map showing how big the Mongol empire used to be, and how small Russia was

- Putin has relied on historical borders to argue Ukraine is part of Russia and to justify the war.

 

[Voodoo]

Still avoiding addressing any of the claims he made though lol.
What’s the point of saying the same thing post after post after post? Your only defense in regards to the blatant corruption and money laundering is to say Russia is bad like a skipping record, like that somehow justifies it all.

Because the argument is surface level deep, and anyone that has historical understanding of war already knows this. None of what he is talking about is new or surprising, nor is it necessarily bad if you understand the context of what is going on geopolitically.

During WW2 we beat both the Japanese and Germans primarily because we could simply out produce both countries in munitions. By the end of the war the US was out producing all other countries combined in ships, airplanes, and so much more. And do you know why? Because our companies benefitted financially, it was extremely profitable.

The bad side of this certainly was on fully display during the Iraq war, and the gross waste during Bush administration was disgusting. And it was all for naught, there was no need or reason from American point of view to be there wasting money and American lives.

What Kennedy is conflating here in Ukraine is the justification for the war. He’s attempting to suggest that the only point of the war is to enrich our defense contractors, and that they’ve influenced our policy makers to support Ukraine only for financial reasons. That entire argument is hogwash, and he of all people should know it.

There IS corruption in Ukraine, and there are companies benefitting from the conflict. But supporting Ukraine is existential for both Russia and America, and it’s important to supporting them no matter the financial costs now in order to prevent far more costly wars in the future. Kennedy is either naively or intentionally missing that point and comes off as weak AF and simple minded to me.

 

[jonnyboy]

It's happening regardless of the war. It's not at all uncomfortable for me to talk about, but it has no bearing on my desire to support Ukraine.

It's irrelevant. You want to start a thread on solutions to the military industrial complex, feel free to make one. I'm sure I'll chime in.

It's just a distraction in this thread. I want to support Ukraine with or without corruption in military industrial spending.

Throwing money at Ukraine isn’t helping the people there, it’s just emboldening their dipshit dictator to send more of them to die. He’s a western puppet who’s been pushed too far into instigating a war they will never even come close to winning. And if you think Ukrainians are unified on fighting this war as the corporate media suggests, you’re wrong about that too. The richest 600k Ukrainians LEFT before the war to avoid it, the poor leftovers of fighting age are all dead now, hundreds of thousands of young men, people there are protesting against conscription and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier is now 45 years old. Yet a narrative is still being spun that they are winning and just need a little more aid, and a little more aid to get the job done. It’s criminal. Western politicians threatening Americans to support this war or else “your kids might be sent over there”—that is nothing more than extortion and threats. The politicians making those claims are disgusting and deserve worse than what the kids on the front lines got.

 

[barfo]

Throwing money at Ukraine isn’t helping the people there, it’s just emboldening their dipshit dictator to send more of them to die. He’s a western puppet who’s been pushed too far into instigating a war they will never even come close to winning. And if you think Ukrainians are unified on fighting this war as the corporate media suggests, you’re wrong about that too. The richest 600k Ukrainians LEFT before the war to avoid it, the poor leftovers of fighting age are all dead now, hundreds of thousands of young men, people there are protesting against conscription and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier is now 45 years old. Yet a narrative is still being spun that they are winning and just need a little more aid, and a little more aid to get the job done. It’s criminal. Western politicians threatening Americans to support this war or else “your kids might be sent over there”—that is nothing more than extortion and threats. The politicians making those claims are disgusting and deserve worse than what the kids on the front lines got.

You are slipping, you forgot to mention that Zelensky's a Nazi and a pedophile, and that Ukrainians are resorting to cannibalism to survive.

barfo

 

[jonnyboy]

There IS corruption in Ukraine, and there are companies benefitting from the conflict. But supporting Ukraine is existential for both Russia and America, and it’s important to supporting them no matter the financial costs now in order to prevent far more costly wars in the future. Kennedy is either naively or intentionally missing that point and comes off as weak AF and simple minded to me.

This is just hypothetical ramblings. Your schizophrenic scenarios of Russia taking over Europe and the world are based on nothing, they are just bad talking points made up by criminals and plastered on your tv screen. It’s just more boogeyman bullshit. “Let us kill 400,000 people to save lives”. How do people still buy this shit?

 

[barfo]

So what do you guys who have been pushing the "NATO forced Putin to invade" line think about Putin telling Tucker that it wasn't NATO, it's that Ukraine just belongs to Russia?

barfo

 

[jonnyboy]

You are slipping, you forgot to mention that Zelensky's a Nazi and a pedophile, and that Ukrainians are resorting to cannibalism to survive.

barfo

Zelensky is whatever Victoria Nuland tells him he is. Anything for a dollar. He might even pull his dick out and play the piano.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

It's always for f**king satisfying to hear from one of the Republican Party's leading intellectual lights. Gawd the voters of Wisconsin are idiots.......

 

[Phatguysrule]

Throwing money at Ukraine isn’t helping the people there, it’s just emboldening their dipshit dictator to send more of them to die. He’s a western puppet who’s been pushed too far into instigating a war they will never even come close to winning. And if you think Ukrainians are unified on fighting this war as the corporate media suggests, you’re wrong about that too. The richest 600k Ukrainians LEFT before the war to avoid it, the poor leftovers of fighting age are all dead now, hundreds of thousands of young men, people there are protesting against conscription and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier is now 45 years old. Yet a narrative is still being spun that they are winning and just need a little more aid, and a little more aid to get the job done. It’s criminal. Western politicians threatening Americans to support this war or else “your kids might be sent over there”—that is nothing more than extortion and threats. The politicians making those claims are disgusting and deserve worse than what the kids on the front lines got.

If he runs out of people willing to fight the war will be over very quickly regardless of funding.

Everything I see from Ukrainians appears that, while they have been battered, they are defiant and eager to defend themselves.

I'll support funding them until that is no longer the case.

 

[Phatguysrule]

So what do you guys who have been pushing the "NATO forced Putin to invade" line think about Putin telling Tucker that it wasn't NATO, it's that Ukraine just belongs to Russia?

barfo

Putin is just a stooge for Western media and the US military industrial complex.

 

[Voodoo]

This is just hypothetical ramblings. Your schizophrenic scenarios of Russia taking over Europe and the world are based on nothing, they are just bad talking points made up by criminals and plastered on your tv screen. It’s just more boogeyman bullshit. “Let us kill 400,000 people to save lives”. How do people still buy this shit?

No, I am referencing both an understanding of history, and literally what Putin and Xi Jin Ping have said. You on the other hand are literally using talking points that are crafted FROM RUSSIA, and in doing so demonstrates everything one needs to know in order to make a decision on this subject. You're either stunningly naive or a useful idiot, and I am not sure which. But gauging from your certainty on the matter it suggests you're the latter which is unfortunately very sad. Raegan and the old school Republicans that actually had a spine and put American interests first must be rolling in their grave. Sad!

 

[Voodoo]

No, I am referencing both an understanding of history, and literally what Putin and Xi Jin Ping have said. You on the other hand are literally using talking points that are crafted FROM RUSSIA, and in doing so demonstrates everything one needs to know in order to make a decision on this subject. You're either stunningly naive or a useful idiot, and I am not sure which. But gauging from your certainty on the matter it suggests you're the latter which is unfortunately very sad. Raegan and the old school Republicans that actually had a spine and put American interests first must be rolling in their grave. Sad!

I wrote this 15 minutes ago, and then immediately stumbled upon this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/appalled-reagans-daughter-says-dad-071810537.html

Looks like I don't have to assume Raegan must be rolling in his grave, his daughter explicitly writes that he would want nothing to do with todays GOP.

Patti Davis, daughter of former President Ronald Reagan, said he doesn’t think her father would be embraced by today’s Republican Party ― and that the feeling would be mutual.

“I don’t think he would... and I don’t see how he would want to be in it,” she told CNN’s Jim Acosta on Sunday. “It’s so diametrically opposed to what he believed and to the dignity that he felt that people in government should have.”

 

[riverman]

Fuck Putin....he didn't want to "save" Ukraine by bombing hospitals, schools, power plants and infrastructure in Ukraine to save the people....what a croc of horseshit. I have Ukrainian refugees living in my neighborhood who were bombed out in the first invasion. A guitar luthier in Germany I know is making his shop available to a couple of guitar makers in Ukraine who had their entire life's work and tools and aged woods bombed out by Putin...yeah...Ukraine should fucking destroy Putin for his atrocities and human rights violations. We are not defending just Ukraine...we are defending and preparing to defend democracy and sovereign rights all over the world. Trump would just let them rape and pillage...again...fuck Putin and Xi and their expansionist agendas. If we don't fund NATO we will spend the same money on simulated war games practicing in some remote region. The military budget is huge....if you think it won't go to arms dealers and war games, I've got a dictator to sell you. I sure don't want Russia, China, Iran and N Korea leading the world ...I'll choose NATO and the PAC Rim investments all day to counter that evil possibility

 

[Voodoo]

Fuck Putin....he didn't want to "save" Ukraine by bombing hospitals, schools, power plants and infrastructure in Ukraine to save the people....what a croc of horseshit. I have Ukrainian refugees living in my neighborhood who were bombed out in the first invasion. A guitar luthier in Germany I know is making his shop available to a couple of guitar makers in Ukraine who had their entire life's work and tools and aged woods bombed out by Putin...yeah...Ukraine should fucking destroy Putin for his atrocities and human rights violations. We are not defending just Ukraine...we are defending and preparing to defend democracy and sovereign rights all over the world. Trump would just let them rape and pillage...again...fuck Putin and Xi and their expansionist agendas. If we don't fund NATO we will spend the same money on simulated war games practicing in some remote region. The military budget is huge....if you think it won't go to arms dealers and war games, I've got a dictator to sell you. I sure don't want Russia, China, Iran and N Korea leading the world ...I'll choose NATO and the PAC Rim investments all day to counter that evil possibility

Yes, exactly. The dude arguing against this is just a useful idiot to Putin, just like Trump, and isn’t strong enough to see through the lies and propaganda from the Russian state. Crazy to see in my lifetime Republicans go from the likes of Raegan, standing up for Democracy everywhere, to the likes of Trump cowering to Putin. It’s so pathetic and weak, like really really weak.

 

[jonnyboy]

Yes, exactly. The dude arguing against this is just a useful idiot to Putin, just like Trump, and isn’t strong enough to see through the lies and propaganda from the Russian state. Crazy to see in my lifetime Republicans go from the likes of Raegan, standing up for Democracy everywhere, to the likes of Trump cowering to Putin. It’s so pathetic and weak, like really really weak.

Speaking out against endless conflicts and corruption doesn’t mean someone is somehow loyal to Putin. This type of McCarthyism makes you sound fucking insane. What incentive do regular ass Americans have to “do Putin’s bidding”? It is the absolute lowest common denominator as far as arguments go and has no logical basis whatsoever. It’s just a dumb smear made in lieu of addressing meaningful concerns. You’re doing the exact same Iraq war “you are siding the the terrorists” bullshit. People who are watching their country fall apart are wondering why billions are being sent to other countries instead of fixing their own. They want to know why the money goes unaccounted for and why their kids are being threatened to be implicated in someone else’s mess. They are legitimate concerns and have nothing to do with a Russian president.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Speaking out against endless conflicts and corruption doesn’t mean someone is somehow loyal to Putin. This type of McCarthyism makes you sound fucking insane. What incentive do regular ass Americans have to “do Putin’s bidding”? It is the absolute lowest common denominator as far as arguments go and has no logical basis whatsoever. It’s just a dumb smear made in lieu of addressing meaningful concerns. You’re doing the exact same Iraq war “you are siding the the terrorists” bullshit. People who are watching their country fall apart are wondering why billions are being sent to other countries instead of fixing their own. They want to know why the money goes unaccounted for and why their kids are being threatened to be implicated in someone else’s mess. They are legitimate concerns and have nothing to do with a Russian president.

We can't abide hostile rulers like Putin expanding their territory by invading peaceful neighbors.

It would be immoral and a strategic mistake. Regardless of how inefficient and corrupt our leaders are.

We should definitely work to make our leaders (and our military industrial complex) less corrupt. And I'm happy to have that conversation. But that is a different conversation than this thread, even if the contents of this thread could be used as evidence in that thread.

Regardless of how corrupt our leaders are, we should be helping Ukraine defend it's territory as long as they wish to do so. And we should help enough that they can effectively expel Russia for good.

 

[Voodoo]

Speaking out against endless conflicts and corruption doesn’t mean someone is somehow loyal to Putin. This type of McCarthyism makes you sound fucking insane. What incentive do regular ass Americans have to “do Putin’s bidding”? It is the absolute lowest common denominator as far as arguments go and has no logical basis whatsoever. It’s just a dumb smear made in lieu of addressing meaningful concerns. You’re doing the exact same Iraq war “you are siding the the terrorists” bullshit. People who are watching their country fall apart are wondering why billions are being sent to other countries instead of fixing their own. They want to know why the money goes unaccounted for and why their kids are being threatened to be implicated in someone else’s mess. They are legitimate concerns and have nothing to do with a Russian president.

McCarthyism... Yes, because I am calling you a communist and stating you should be put in jail. *eye roll* No, I am saying you're a useful idiot, and which according to US intel experts, you are.

As for the Government waste argument, are you familiar with how much the US has spent in Ukraine? It's $79B since the war started.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-us-aid-war-russia-1856016

Lets put that in context against the F-35 program lifetime cost of $1.7 TRILLION.

https://simpleflying.com/how-much-does-an-f-35-cost/

Our support of Ukraine to date is 4.6% of the cost of the F-35 program which was designed to continue American dominance in the airspace against China, and what other country? Oh yeah, RUSSIA! To think further on this against another expenditure is fossil fuel subsidies, the most recent report I can find says the US is subsidizing the fossil fuel industry $649B PER YEAR.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...ubsidies-pentagon-spending-imf-report-833035/

Funding Ukraine is arguably the best investment in terms of projecting our power and influence around the world than any other military expenditure in the last 2 years. It's been wildly successful in diminishing the military readiness, Russia has lost half of its combat capability since the war has started. The F-35, nor any other weapons' program will ever achieve that, and it's something like almost 20 times more expensive than funding Ukraine.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-lost-half-its-combat-capability-ukraine-uk-defense-chief-1811042

I am all for government accountability and ensuring our taxes are being well spent, but when you really take a moment to think about it, funding Ukraine is actually a very wise investment indeed. If you were truly concerned with government waste, you wouldn't be focused on funding Ukraine, no you'd be focused on the pentagon budget. I have not, at least not yet, seen you advocate for cutting the military budget or at minimum making it auditable. You're arguing over a line item that is something like 5% the Federal budget of $1.6T, it makes no sense when you consider it's been one of the better investments we've made in our national security in the last two years.