Politics Ukraine / Russia (1 Viewer)

[UKRAINEFAN]

USA has given some important stuff like the cluster shells and HIMARs but Europe has given much more of the every day equipment needed for a war.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I don't know, but maybe because Netanyahu is corrupt as hell and I'm not likely to believe anything he says, and really, neither should you?

Do you give Trump the same grace?

Also, judging from the title, that video is about Iraq, which (I've heard) is a different country than Afghanistan.

I don't know why any human being with a capacity for brain function would judge a video by its title. I've already done the work for you. I can tell you're not very serious about your argument.

You are right, it doesn't matter if I agree with what a lobbyist says.

A lobbyist who everyone agrees controls most of Congress.

That's simply ridiculous. How many federal agencies has Israel fed into the woodchipper this week?

How is that a relevant question? Was it another country who is responsible for ending federal agencies?

Actually, it kind of is, you just don't want to face that fact that there is strong support for Israel among the US voting population.
Weaker than it used to be, given Gaza, but still pretty strong. Politicians tend to do things that bring them voters, as long as those things don't drive away other voters.

There is stronger support for Medicare for all but you're not likely to see that passed anytime soon. I don't really care if people support it or not, all I'm saying is that they should be playing by the same rules.

I don't disagree. I don't see how it would make a huge difference in practice, but I'm in favor of everyone playing by the same rules.

barfo

All that useless typing just to find the same conclusion I and millions of Americans have come to. It's good to have you.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Aren't there 541 members of Congress? If they supported 362 members and candidates and 98% of them won that means they only have 354 members in office that they supported.

354 is not 98% of 541. It's closer to 65%... That is a majority but it's definitely not 98%.

I'd be surprised if most billionaire lobbies aren't in the same range... That's how you would get the best return on your investment.

Once again, this isn't a problem specifically with Israel, IMO. This is a problem with our own system giving favored access to capital.

The system encourages corruption. There will be corruption until we fix the system.

You're welcome to look at AIPAC's website yourself. 65% would still be too much. There's no other foreign entity that has control of us like that. Seems we're being super selective about thinking which control is good and bad.

The specific problem is our laws allowing that foreign money to invade our political system exclusive to Israel. That's pretty obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think about. But keep worrying about Russia who doesn't spend anywhere close to the money Israel does on our politics.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You're welcome to look at AIPAC's website yourself. 65% would still be too much. There's no other foreign entity that has control of us like that. Seems we're being super selective about thinking which control is good and bad.

The specific problem is our laws allowing that foreign money to invade our political system exclusive to Israel. That's pretty obvious to anyone who takes a moment to think about. But keep worrying about Russia who doesn't spend anywhere close to the money Israel does on our politics.

No, I have said repeatedly. We need to change our system to prevent this happening at all. Not just specific changes directed at Israel. They need to play by the same rules as everybody else.

All excess control (meaning more control than the average voter) by foreign entities and oligarchs is bad.

I've seen no evidence that other billionaire lobbies and countries have not donated to 65% of sitting congressional representatives. I would be surprised if they had not. Because that is what our system encourages.

Our representatives literally spend dozens of hours and hours per week directly calling these lobbies and PACs asking for financial support, as mandated by the DNC and RNC.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

No, I have said repeatedly. We need to change our system to prevent this happening at all. Not just specific changes directed at Israel. They need to play by the same rules as everybody else.

All excess control (meaning more control than the average voter) by foreign entities and oligarchs is bad.

I've seen no evidence that other billionaire lobbies and countries have not donated to 65% of sitting congressional representatives. I would be surprised if they had not. Because that is what our system encourages.

Our representatives literally spend dozens of hours and hours per week directly calling these lobbies and PACs asking for financial support, as mandated by the DNC and RNC.

The absence of evidence is not evidence. Foreign lobbies are not allowed to operate the same way Israel does. That is why this is uniquely an Israel issue. Oligarchs controlling our elections is bad enough. We shouldn't have foreign nations deciding our elections too. Obviously. The msm has brainwashed you to believe Russia is deciding our elections with social media posts but not Israel with billions spent in our elections.

Your cries fall off deaf ears when speaking on "democracy."

 

[barfo]

Do you give Trump the same grace?

Not sure what you mean by that. Of course Trump is corrupt and a liar.

I don't know why any human being with a capacity for brain function would judge a video by its title. I've already done the work for you. I can tell you're not very serious about your argument.

Not interested in watching videos, sorry. If you want to make an argument you can make it yourself.

A lobbyist who everyone agrees controls most of Congress.

No, everyone does not agree about that.

How is that a relevant question? Was it another country who is responsible for ending federal agencies?

I was responding to your comment that "Israel has the most influence and it's not even close". If you were talking about 'among foreign countries', you didn't make that clear.
Not sure I agree even so - maybe if you further limit the statement to 'most influence via lobbying' it could be arguably true.

There is stronger support for Medicare for all but you're not likely to see that passed anytime soon.

In the case of Medicare for all, the lobbyists are against it, not for it. It's easy for the politicians when lobbyists and a large subset of voters agree, as is the case for Israel.

I don't really care if people support it or not, all I'm saying is that they should be playing by the same rules.

Ok. You know that rules don't matter anymore, right? Anything goes in this government.

All that useless typing just to find the same conclusion I and millions of Americans have come to. It's good to have you.

Huh. I don't think millions of Americans know or care about whether Israeli lobbyists register under FARA.

If your pet peeve was instead the price of eggs, you'd be able to claim that millions of Americans were on your side.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

The fact that our system encourages that of lobbyists, corporations, and PACs leads me to push for a change in the system rather than hate directed at a specific country.

Foreign lobbies are not allowed to operate the same way Israel does. That is why this is uniquely an Israel issue. Oligarchs controlling our elections is bad enough. We shouldn't have foreign nations deciding our elections too. Obviously. The msm has brainwashed you to believe Russia is deciding our elections with social media posts but not Israel with billions spent in our elections.

Your cries fall off deaf ears when speaking on "democracy."

No, What I have suggested would exclude Israel from being able to do that as well.

The fact that Trump and Musk openly defend Putin while attacking Ukraine publicly (and make moves that weaken the US position while strengthening the Russian position) shows that Russia is very involved in tanking our democracy and relationships with our allies. And even if they aren't and it's some conspiracy by Israel to make Russia look bad and direct attention away from themselves, it is still very clearly possible for a person in Putin's position to have that kind of influence.

Once again, I am not interested in targeting a specific country. I want our rules to limit interference from all countries and incorporations.

Focusing on a specific country is simply a distraction and, IMO, is a result of the efforts by the wealthy to divide the population.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Not sure what you mean by that. Of course Trump is corrupt and a liar.

You don't believe Netanyahu when he says he's committed crimes, but you believe Trump? Double standard. Not too difficult to understand, but at this point we know you aren't arguing out of legitimacy but rather sport.

Not interested in watching videos, sorry. If you want to make an argument you can make it yourself.

So like MAGA, you're NOT interested in actual evidence? Got it. Like I said, you're clearly not very interested in what you debate and that's okay. No need to hide it. I'm not going to type out the transcript of his quote about needing Afghanistan when you can watch and learn from a video. You don't want to so no need to argue.

No, everyone does not agree about that.

MSM agrees that our politicians take more from Israel lobbying money than any other foreign entity. Weird you don't get that from how much MSNBC you watch.

I was responding to your comment that "Israel has the most influence and it's not even close". If you were talking about 'among foreign countries', you didn't make that clear.
Not sure I agree even so - maybe if you further limit the statement to 'most influence via lobbying' it could be arguably true.

I know context is a difficult concept to grasp but if you look at what I said, it was clear it was in terms of foreign money.

In the case of Medicare for all, the lobbyists are against it, not for it. It's easy for the politicians when lobbyists and a large subset of voters agree, as is the case for Israel.

Oh okay, so what you said WASN'T entirely true then? Thanks for clearing that up.

Ok. You know that rules don't matter anymore, right? Anything goes in this government.

Anymore? Since when? Since Trump? Your scope of outrage is extremely limited and laughable. Biden enabling a genocide fine. Ethnic cleansing under Trump bad. No moral authority and that's why you and your ilk lost the election so bad.

Huh. I don't think millions of Americans know or care about whether Israeli lobbyists register under FARA.

If your pet peeve was instead the price of eggs, you'd be able to claim that millions of Americans were on your side.

barfo

I know you're allergic to data like your MAGA ilk, but the data suggests otherwise. You keep telling us Americans adore Israel which is something else entirely when there have been numerous stories on Kamala losing the election on that very issue.

It's obvious you're arguing for sport when you already conceded that Israel should be registered under FARA. I don't know what why else you're gibbering and not willing to look at evidence you asked for other than for trolling purposes which I hear is a great use of your time.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

The fact that our system encourages that of lobbyists, corporations, and PACs leads me to push for a change in the system rather than hate directed at a specific country.


No, What I have suggested would exclude Israel from being able to do that as well.

The fact that Trump and Musk openly defend Putin while attacking Ukraine publicly (and make moves that weaken the US position while strengthening the Russian position) shows that Russia is very involved in tanking our democracy and relationships with our allies. And even if they aren't and it's some conspiracy by Israel to make Russia look bad and direct attention away from themselves, it is still very clearly possible for a person in Putin's position to have that kind of influence.

Once again, I am not interested in targeting a specific country. I want our rules to limit interference from all countries and incorporations.

Focusing on a specific country is simply a distraction and, IMO, is a result of the efforts by the wealthy to divide the population.

You already thought Bernie Sanders would be championed by Israel so there's nothing else I can do for you here. I would do some more reading be open to learning new things.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You already thought Bernie Sanders would be championed by Israel so there's nothing else I can do for you here. I would do some more reading be open to learning new things.

I'm not asking you to do anything for me. The comment about Bernie Sanders was made off the cuff and in jest.

If that's the best you have then you should probably take your own advice, considering it has nothing to do with my position.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I'm not asking you to do anything for me. The comment about Bernie Sanders was made off the cuff and in jest.

If that's the best you have then you should probably take your own advice, considering it has nothing to do with my position.

No, I already gave you my best. If you don’t see why giving billions to a colonial project and a genocidal country with nuclear weapons—one that has special rules for funding our elections and controls 98% of our Congress—is a terrible decision for our country, then no evidence will change your mind. You don't get to complain about democracy in good faith at that point.

 

[barfo]

I think there's a serious misunderstanding of the word 'control' here. If donating money to a politician gives you 'control', then lots and lots of people and entities have control. Not just Israel.

Some Americans adore Israel. Some are outraged that their lobbyists don't register as foreign agents. I'm pretty sure the former group is much larger than the latter.
Many Americans don't really care a lot about Israel one way or another, and that's surely the largest group of all.

If Netanyahu says we went to war in Afghanistan because he told us to, well, I guess that must be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yes, I'm arguing for sport. That's what we do here. Did you think there was some higher purpose? Do you imagine that you are changing hearts and minds?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

No, I already gave you my best. If you don’t see why giving billions to a colonial project and a genocidal country with nuclear weapons—one that has special rules for funding our elections and controls 98% of our Congress—is a terrible decision for our country, then no evidence will change your mind. You don't get to complain about democracy in good faith at that point.

I've already agreed that that's a terrible idea and it should stop.

For every country.

You are the one clearly not having the discussion in good faith.

 

[crandc]

I believe there is a thread on Middle East war

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I've already agreed that that's a terrible idea and it should stop.

For every country.

You are the one clearly not having the discussion in good faith.

But it's only happening with Israel with respect to foreign nations. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Phatguysrule]

But it's only happening with Israel with respect to foreign nations. That's all I'm saying.

It's not though. Russia is heavily influencing Trump right now (using PACs and other hidden methods that US oligarchs use) thanks to citizens united.

I'm not trying to minimize the severity of Israeli influence, I'm saying it's a huge problem across the board because our system is set up to encourage it from everyone who has access to a lot of capital.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

It's not though. Russia is heavily influencing Trump right now (using PACs and other hidden methods that US oligarchs use) thanks to citizens united.

I'm not trying to minimize the severity of Israeli influence, I'm saying it's a huge problem across the board because our system is set up to encourage it from everyone who has access to a lot of capital.

I'd like to see some info if you have any in regards to Russia spending money in our elections. I know there's an opportunity to do so via crypto but they still have to register as foreign agents like any other country besides Israel.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Why does this sound so familiar?

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'd like to see some info if you have any in regards to Russia spending money in our elections. I know there's an opportunity to do so via crypto but they still have to register as foreign agents like any other country besides Israel.

They use the same avenues as the wealthy and special interests.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/13/us/politics/russia-election-interference.html

https://campaignlegal.org/update/fec-allowing-foreign-money-influence-our-elections

https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/03/10/trump-putin-russia-asset-spy-security-ukraine-europe-war/

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...ald-trump-was-recruited-by-the-kgb-as-krasnov



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book

 

[Hoopguru]

Im hoping the Ukrainian / Russian war can have a cease fire and eventual peace.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[crandc]

Steve Witkoff, Florida real estate attorney with no diplomatic experience, who is leading US negotiations on Ukraine, went on Tucker Carlson to gush about Putin. Putin is so gracious and intelligent. He prayed for Trump after Trump was shot. He commissioned one of Russia's leading artists to paint a portrait of Trump to present to him as a gift.
Witkoff then went on to repeat Russian talking points on Ukraine, including blaming Ukraine for being unwilling to cede territory.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Steve Witkoff, Florida real estate attorney with no diplomatic experience, who is leading US negotiations on Ukraine, went on Tucker Carlson to gush about Putin. Putin is so gracious and intelligent. He prayed for Trump after Trump was shot. He commissioned one of Russia's leading artists to paint a portrait of Trump to present to him as a gift.
Witkoff then went on to repeat Russian talking points on Ukraine, including blaming Ukraine for being unwilling to cede territory.

I'm ready to cede North Dakota to Canada.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Steve Witkoff, Florida real estate attorney with no diplomatic experience, who is leading US negotiations on Ukraine, went on Tucker Carlson to gush about Putin. Putin is so gracious and intelligent. He prayed for Trump after Trump was shot. He commissioned one of Russia's leading artists to paint a portrait of Trump to present to him as a gift.
Witkoff then went on to repeat Russian talking points on Ukraine, including blaming Ukraine for being unwilling to cede territory.

He is disgusting, and either not very smart or has been bought.

 

[crandc]

He is disgusting, and either not very smart or has been bought.

Typical Trump appointee. Unqualified. Lacking knowledge of subject. Loyal to master and in this case master's master.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

From the Moscow Times; they have sources inside russia. The article has a lot in it.
@SavchenkoReview

The Kremlin is betting on removing Zelensky from power in the hope of replacing him with a more accommodating leadership, - The Moscow Times
The Kremlin is still pursuing maximalist goals. The maximum program is Kyiv's capitulation, regime change, and a reboot of Ukrainian statehood on Russian terms.
The minimum program is establishing control over four new regions within their administrative borders while simultaneously limiting Kyiv's political and military independence.
There is also a third option - discrediting Zelensky as a negotiable counterpart in the eyes of Trump.
The current task is to "achieve unbearable pressure from Washington" on Zelensky and force Kyiv to hold presidential elections.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025...to-replace-zelensky-risking-trumps-ire-a88527

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

This is positive, that it is bi-partisan; hopefully will put some pressure on Trump to do something.

Half of the Senate, led by Sens. Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, and Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Democrat, introduced a bipartisan bill on Tuesday to impose sanctions against Russia if the Kremlin refuses to negotiate a peace deal to end the war in Ukraine.

The 50 Senate original co-sponsors are equally split among Republicans and Democrats, showing broad bipartisan support.

“The dominating view in the United States Senate is that Russia is the aggressor, and that this horrific war and Putin’s aggression must end now and be deterred in the future,” the senators said in a joint statement.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/new...partisan-russia-sanctions-bill-bolster-peace/

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

This is positive, that it is bi-partisan; hopefully will put some pressure on Trump to do something.

Half of the Senate, led by Sens. Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, and Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Democrat, introduced a bipartisan bill on Tuesday to impose sanctions against Russia if the Kremlin refuses to negotiate a peace deal to end the war in Ukraine.

The 50 Senate original co-sponsors are equally split among Republicans and Democrats, showing broad bipartisan support.

“The dominating view in the United States Senate is that Russia is the aggressor, and that this horrific war and Putin’s aggression must end now and be deterred in the future,” the senators said in a joint statement.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/new...partisan-russia-sanctions-bill-bolster-peace/

Are you absolutely sure this wasn't an article in The Onion?? Or is this an April fool's joke by the (rag) Washington Times? Because an article on Lindsey Graham doing the right thing is either massive satire or a huge joke........

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Are you absolutely sure this wasn't an article in The Onion?? Or is this an April fool's joke by the (rag) Washington Times? Because an article on Lindsey Graham doing the right thing is either massive satire or a huge joke........

Lindsey Graham is a complicated guy and he might be Trump's closest friend (after Putin ). Seriously, he has been advocating for Ukraine consistently except for when he criticized Zelensky after the ambush at the WH.