Politics US Navy FIRES captain of coronavirus-stricken aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt

[Lanny]

If his direct superiors weren't listening to his concerns he was right to leak the letter.

However, no one is saying that the Captain leaked his letter.

 

[Lanny]

He wasn't fired for the letter. He was fired for the leak.

What leak?

 

[Lanny]

Not hard to figure out which one.

I'd say it is hard to figure out which one. What isn't hard is to figure out is which one it won't be.

 

[Lanny]

The Navy was absolutely "handling it", just not in the manner desired by the cowardly leaker. The Quivering Captain succumbed to paranoia for his personal safety, and endangered the ship, the crew, the nation by revealing to China how effective their bioweapon attack has been. China will now be modelling how many other ships and bases they have been able to infect.

As for VA hospitals, Trump has vastly improved them since Obama ignored their pleas for 8 years.

The navy was handling it alright, it's just that they were handling it all wrong.

 

[Lanny]

Custard was warned by scouts that he should not precede.

Was that vanilla custard?
I do recall a General Custer but no military officer called Custard.

 

[Lanny]

It's a treasonous offense, and he should never serve in our military again.

When will they in all their wisdom charge him with treason? Any day now?

 

[illmatic99]

Yes, I'm sure his crew hates him

 

[Hoopguru]

Yes, I'm sure his crew hates him

Man, that had to be tough and its obvious his crew was behind him!
It doesn't matter what your title or rank is in anything, you have to do the right thing!
My father was a Captain and he would have done the same thing for the sake of his crew.
Many in here talk about people in high places (trumpy) doing the right thing, this Captain did.

 

[Hoopguru]

Was that vanilla custard?
I do recall a General Custer but no military officer called Custard.

Whoops, just had frozen custard last night!
This darn computer changes the spelling on its own and most of time its worse than me.

 

[e_blazer]

Man, that had to be tough and its obvious his crew was behind!
It doesn't matter what your title or rank is in anything, you have to do the right thing!
My father was a Captain and he would have done the same thing for the sake of his crew.
Many in here talk about people in high places (trumpy) doing the right thing, this Captain did.

No, he really didn't. I'd really like to hear @BrianFromWA 's take on this, but from my perspective as a former Air Force officer, this guy, no matter how well-intentioned, did not do his job or uphold his oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same".

The US Navy has two aircraft carriers in the Pacific; the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the USS Ronald Reagan. They are the main way that the United States can project military air power in a region that includes China and N. Korea. Both ships now have active cases of covid-19. The Navy has a responsibility to maintain the capability of these ships to perform their missions no matter what the circumstances may be. Geopolitical adversaries don't give you a pass because you've got some sick sailors. Maintaining the operational capability of these ships certainly includes taking into account the health of their crews, but there are a lot of factors that would go into deciding exactly what should be done at a time like this. That takes some time to figure out and to move assets around. In the meantime, you have to consider that the sailors on these ships are mostly young and healthy and that the ships have large and well-equipped sickbays. This isn't a case of a Carnival cruise ship full of old folks and a few doctors to take care of them. This guy at first responded correctly by notifying his superiors of the issue, but then decided to put the Navy in a really awkward spot by going public with his concerns. That passed sensitive information to our adversaries, it gave a great deal of worry to loved ones of the sailors, and the public response perpetuated the notion that maverick behavior is somehow admirable. The chain of command exists for a variety of reasons and one of those reasons is that no single officer can possibly know all of the facts that need to be taken into account in deciding how and when a valuable military asset is taken out of operation, even temporarily. Covid-19 isn't going away anytime soon. The military doesn't have the option of just going home and sheltering in place.

 

[barfo]

No, he really didn't. I'd really like to hear @BrianFromWA 's take on this, but from my perspective as a former Air Force officer, this guy, no matter how well-intentioned, did not do his job or uphold his oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same".

The US Navy has two aircraft carriers in the Pacific; the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the USS Ronald Reagan. They are the main way that the United States can project military air power in a region that includes China and N. Korea. Both ships now have active cases of covid-19. The Navy has a responsibility to maintain the capability of these ships to perform their missions no matter what the circumstances may be. Geopolitical adversaries don't give you a pass because you've got some sick sailors. Maintaining the operational capability of these ships certainly includes taking into account the health of their crews, but there are a lot of factors that would go into deciding exactly what should be done at a time like this. That takes some time to figure out and to move assets around. In the meantime, you have to consider that the sailors on these ships are mostly young and healthy and that the ships have large and well-equipped sickbays. This isn't a case of a Carnival cruise ship full of old folks and a few doctors to take care of them. This guy at first responded correctly by notifying his superiors of the issue, but then decided to put the Navy in a really awkward spot by going public with his concerns. That passed sensitive information to our adversaries, it gave a great deal of worry to loved ones of the sailors, and the public response perpetuated the notion that maverick behavior is somehow admirable. The chain of command exists for a variety of reasons and one of those reasons is that no single officer can possibly know all of the facts that need to be taken into account in deciding how and when a valuable military asset is taken out of operation, even temporarily. Covid-19 isn't going away anytime soon. The military doesn't have the option of just going home and sheltering in place.

We have a huge military capability. While in theory it is correct that some adversary could gain an advantage from knowing that sailors have covid-19, the reality is that we can bomb anyone anywhere back to the stone age just using the air force. Not clear what scenario allows the enemy to take actual advantage of this.

As for worrying the sailors' loved ones - they fucking well should be worried.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

We have a huge military capability. While in theory it is correct that some adversary could gain an advantage from knowing that sailors have covid-19, the reality is that we can bomb anyone anywhere back to the stone age just using the air force. Not clear what scenario allows the enemy to take actual advantage of this.

As for worrying the sailors' loved ones - they fucking well should be worried.

barfo

So, your thought is taking these ships out of commission and leaving nuclear options as the only viable scenario if China, Russia, or N. Korea start using this time of pandemic as a good time to get aggressive?

 

[Hoopguru]

No, he really didn't. I'd really like to hear @BrianFromWA 's take on this, but from my perspective as a former Air Force officer, this guy, no matter how well-intentioned, did not do his job or uphold his oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same".

The US Navy has two aircraft carriers in the Pacific; the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the USS Ronald Reagan. They are the main way that the United States can project military air power in a region that includes China and N. Korea. Both ships now have active cases of covid-19. The Navy has a responsibility to maintain the capability of these ships to perform their missions no matter what the circumstances may be. Geopolitical adversaries don't give you a pass because you've got some sick sailors. Maintaining the operational capability of these ships certainly includes taking into account the health of their crews, but there are a lot of factors that would go into deciding exactly what should be done at a time like this. That takes some time to figure out and to move assets around. In the meantime, you have to consider that the sailors on these ships are mostly young and healthy and that the ships have large and well-equipped sickbays. This isn't a case of a Carnival cruise ship full of old folks and a few doctors to take care of them. This guy at first responded correctly by notifying his superiors of the issue, but then decided to put the Navy in a really awkward spot by going public with his concerns. That passed sensitive information to our adversaries, it gave a great deal of worry to loved ones of the sailors, and the public response perpetuated the notion that maverick behavior is somehow admirable. The chain of command exists for a variety of reasons and one of those reasons is that no single officer can possibly know all of the facts that need to be taken into account in deciding how and when a valuable military asset is taken out of operation, even temporarily. Covid-19 isn't going away anytime soon. The military doesn't have the option of just going home and sheltering in place.

I do respect and understand what you are saying!

 

[illmatic99]

So, your thought is taking these ships out of commission and leaving nuclear options as the only viable scenario if China, Russia, or N. Korea start using this time of pandemic as a good time to get aggressive?

WTF is the point of having a ship in commission if the more of the crew keeps getting sick every day?

I swear some of yall can't see the forest through the trees. This is like those bible thumping asshole officials in the south claiming the shutdown needs to be lifted to get the economy rolling again, while forgetting that can't really happen with sick people all over.

 

[Minstrel]

Unjust, corrupt or negligent behavior should be brought to light. Using "national security" as a shield to hide those qualities leads to a much uglier society.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Unjust, corrupt or negligent behavior should be brought to light. Using "national security" as a shield to hide those qualities leads to a much uglier society.

Unless you're asking Ukraine for help proving it.
edit: and yes this is mostly a joke I realize the problem wasn't asking but holding aid until the help was given...

 

[e_blazer]

WTF is the point of having a ship in commission if the more of the crew keeps getting sick every day?

I swear some of yall can't see the forest through the trees. This is like those bible thumping asshole officials in the south claiming the shutdown needs to be lifted to get the economy rolling again, while forgetting that can't really happen with sick people all over.

You know, it would be nice if just once in a while people would take a minute to think before going fricking ballistic around here.

The Navy doesn't float aircraft carriers around the Pacific just to give the sailors a nice joy ride. It's actually kind of important. I completely get that responding to the outbreak of the virus is essential to the mission, and I'm pretty sure that the Navy brass understand that better than any of us around here. It could be that pulling the ship into Guam was the only option to address the situation and that they would have come to that decision regardless of what the Captain did. My only point is that it wasn't his call to make, and taking the issue public was completely out of line.

Off the top of my head let's consider a few things:

1. The sailors on that ship aren't by and large in a high risk group.
2. The captain has the authority and ability to do testing and isolation of crew members as needed.
3. The ship has a well prepared and staffed sick bay.
4. The ship has the ability to fly very sick patients to shore for treatment if the need arises.
5. Even if the decision is that the Navy needs to take the ship to port, it's a nuclear powered vessel. You have to figure out how to safely man the ship to the extent of maintaining that reactor safely.
6. You need to figure out what needs to be done in order to safely and effectively decontaminate the vessel and you need to assemble the supplies and crew to do that.
7. You need to maintain preparations to be able to go back to sea quickly if a military emergency arises.
8. You need to figure out how to effectively cover for the loss of a major naval asset during the time it's in port and you need to move other assets around as necessary to cover as best you can.

And that's just off the top of my admittedly very uninformed head. So there just might be a bit bigger view of this particular forest that we highly incensed civilians don't have the knowledge to consider and it just might take a little time for the Navy brass to come up with the plans to deal with this challenge. The captain did absolutely nothing but add stress to an already difficult situation.

 

[barfo]

So, your thought is taking these ships out of commission and leaving nuclear options as the only viable scenario if China, Russia, or N. Korea start using this time of pandemic as a good time to get aggressive?

If you mean nuclear weapons, no, I didn't mean that. I think our bombers can drop conventional weapons.
If you mean nuclear figuratively, then I guess I don't know - I suppose the planes on an aircraft carrier could engage enemy planes, and maybe that's a less "nuclear" response than dropping a bomb on something?

barfo

 

[wizenheimer]

as a liberal and progressive, I must be missing something in this story

if it was the captain who leaked this letter, I don't see how the Navy had any other choice but to relieve this captain of his post. The chain of command is the fundamental backbone of military life. At the same time, is it certain it was the captain who leaked his letter? IIRC, the Navy thought that the captain showed poor judgement in too widely CC'ing his email, almost assuring it would become public

it does seem pretty clear that the Navy was essentially dismissing the concerns of the captain. But I can see how the logistics of dealing with this situation would be enormous. 5000 sailors would have to be immediately tested and until the tests were complete, and the results returned, how would you isolate every sailor from every other sailor? A nuclear aircraft carrier would have to drop anchor for several weeks and be disinfected while a bunch of replacements would be flown to Guam

all that said, the suggestion made in this thread that the captain should be put on trial is fucked up, especially if it can't be proven that he leaked the letter. A career officer being relieved of command is extremely significant punishment. He'll likely be demoted and forced into retirement. But what he did almost certainly saved some lives of his crew. The Navy would be smart to leave well enough alone

 

[SlyPokerDog]

as a liberal and progressive, I must be missing something in this story

if it was the captain who leaked this letter, I don't see how the Navy had any other choice but to relieve this captain of his post. The chain of command is the fundamental backbone of military life. At the same time, is it certain it was the captain who leaked his letter? IIRC, the Navy thought that the captain showed poor judgement in too widely CC'ing his email, almost assuring it would become public

it does seem pretty clear that the Navy was essentially dismissing the concerns of the captain. But I can see how the logistics of dealing with this situation would be enormous. 5000 sailors would have to be immediately tested and until the tests were complete, and the results returned, how would you isolate every sailor from every other sailor? A nuclear aircraft carrier would have to drop anchor for several weeks and be disinfected while a bunch of replacements would be flown to Guam

all that said, the suggestion made in this thread that the captain should be put on trial is fucked up, especially if it can't be proven that he leaked the letter. A career officer being relieved of command is extremely significant punishment. He'll likely be demoted and forced into retirement. But what he did almost certainly saved some lives of his crew. The Navy would be smart to leave well enough alone

I have not served but I have heard that a navy captain is responsible for everything that happens on the ship. I believe the case years back when a navy ship hit a fishing boat the captain was not even on board when his ship hit the fishing boat and he was still removed as captain. His boat, his responsibility.

He may not have leaked the letter, but it's his letter his responsibility.

And I'm sure he knows that and will own it. If you take that drastic of action to protect your crew, I'm sure he will also protect the person who leaked it. In the end, he got what he wanted. Which was the protection and safety of those who served under him.

 

[jonnyboy]

I mean, are people really surprised by any of this? Lol.

Maybe this is a good time to remind people that Julian Assange is still sitting in a prison cell.
Or that Chelsea Manning did time.
Or that Edward Snowden had politicians clamoring for his death sentence.
Or that pieces of human trash like Eddie Gallagher walk the earth freely.

Gimme a fucking break with your “chain of command” BS. There’s no such thing as a complaint being addressed within military or government. Peons get pee’d on.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I mean, are people really surprised by any of this? Lol.

Maybe this is a good time to remind people that Julian Assange is still sitting in a prison cell.
Or that Chelsea Manning did time.
Or that Edward Snowden had politicians clamoring for his death sentence.
Or that pieces of human trash like Eddie Gallagher walk the earth freely.

Gimme a fucking break with your “chain of command” BS. There’s no such thing as a complaint being addressed within military or government. Peons get pee’d on.

They signed up for it. The military was probably going to give them all the Trump drug as people call it.

Whatever their plan was, this guy showing this letter to a gazillion people is his mistake.

He doesn't get to do that and not get in trouble.

Assange and Snowden and Manning are different.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Command of an aircraft carrier is just about the highest honor a Navy officer can aspire to (based on my naval experience). I honestly believe that most officers would be happy to defer further promotion rather than to take a higher level shore side position. To get to where he was, this captain had his shit together and I don’t believe for one minute that he took his decision lightly. I’m sure he knew EXACTLY what the end result was going to be. I believe he acted for the greater good.....and that history will prove he made a righteous call.

 

[CupWizier]

I have not served but I have heard that a navy captain is responsible for everything that happens on the ship. I believe the case years back when a navy ship hit a fishing boat the captain was not even on board when his ship hit the fishing boat and he was still removed as captain. His boat, his responsibility.

He may not have leaked the letter, but it's his letter his responsibility.

And I'm sure he knows that and will own it. If you take that drastic of action to protect your crew, I'm sure he will also protect the person who leaked it. In the end, he got what he wanted. Which was the protection and safety of those who served under him.

Why can't the Navy be like the Catholic church? If a bad priest is found out doing illicit activities they are just transferred to a different parrish out of state with no record of the illegal activity and free to assume his disgusting habits.

 

[MickZagger]

Yes, I'm sure his crew hates him

and suddenly that crushed the narrative that he betrayed his people

Next...

 

[barfo]

I'm not particularly concerned that this guy lost his command. I'm sure the Navy has other well-qualified boat drivers.

What's more concerning is what the situation was that caused him to write the letter. Was the Navy in fact going to just pretend it wasn't happening? That would be in keeping with the overall Trump policy, and would have killed at least some of the crew.

barfo

 

[wizenheimer]

this has made me curious and a quick google search hasn't helped

I'm curious about semi-approximate floor plans of a nuclear aircraft carrier. How many decks and what if the scale? Not sure if those are around anywhere

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

You know, it would be nice if just once in a while people would take a minute to think before going fricking ballistic around here.

The Navy doesn't float aircraft carriers around the Pacific just to give the sailors a nice joy ride. It's actually kind of important. I completely get that responding to the outbreak of the virus is essential to the mission, and I'm pretty sure that the Navy brass understand that better than any of us around here. It could be that pulling the ship into Guam was the only option to address the situation and that they would have come to that decision regardless of what the Captain did. My only point is that it wasn't his call to make, and taking the issue public was completely out of line.

Off the top of my head let's consider a few things:

1. The sailors on that ship aren't by and large in a high risk group.
2. The captain has the authority and ability to do testing and isolation of crew members as needed.
3. The ship has a well prepared and staffed sick bay.
4. The ship has the ability to fly very sick patients to shore for treatment if the need arises.
5. Even if the decision is that the Navy needs to take the ship to port, it's a nuclear powered vessel. You have to figure out how to safely man the ship to the extent of maintaining that reactor safely.
6. You need to figure out what needs to be done in order to safely and effectively decontaminate the vessel and you need to assemble the supplies and crew to do that.
7. You need to maintain preparations to be able to go back to sea quickly if a military emergency arises.
8. You need to figure out how to effectively cover for the loss of a major naval asset during the time it's in port and you need to move other assets around as necessary to cover as best you can.

And that's just off the top of my admittedly very uninformed head. So there just might be a bit bigger view of this particular forest that we highly incensed civilians don't have the knowledge to consider and it just might take a little time for the Navy brass to come up with the plans to deal with this challenge. The captain did absolutely nothing but add stress to an already difficult situation.

I need to put in a like from Marazul.

He says @e_blazer wins the thread.

 

[e_blazer]

this has made me curious and a quick google search hasn't helped

I'm curious about semi-approximate floor plans of a nuclear aircraft carrier. How many decks and what if the scale? Not sure if those are around anywhere

Best I could find:

 

[Lanny]

You know, it would be nice if just once in a while people would take a minute to think before going fricking ballistic around here.

The Navy doesn't float aircraft carriers around the Pacific just to give the sailors a nice joy ride. It's actually kind of important. I completely get that responding to the outbreak of the virus is essential to the mission, and I'm pretty sure that the Navy brass understand that better than any of us around here. It could be that pulling the ship into Guam was the only option to address the situation and that they would have come to that decision regardless of what the Captain did. My only point is that it wasn't his call to make, and taking the issue public was completely out of line.

Off the top of my head let's consider a few things:

1. The sailors on that ship aren't by and large in a high risk group.
2. The captain has the authority and ability to do testing and isolation of crew members as needed.
3. The ship has a well prepared and staffed sick bay.
4. The ship has the ability to fly very sick patients to shore for treatment if the need arises.
5. Even if the decision is that the Navy needs to take the ship to port, it's a nuclear powered vessel. You have to figure out how to safely man the ship to the extent of maintaining that reactor safely.
6. You need to figure out what needs to be done in order to safely and effectively decontaminate the vessel and you need to assemble the supplies and crew to do that.
7. You need to maintain preparations to be able to go back to sea quickly if a military emergency arises.
8. You need to figure out how to effectively cover for the loss of a major naval asset during the time it's in port and you need to move other assets around as necessary to cover as best you can.

And that's just off the top of my admittedly very uninformed head. So there just might be a bit bigger view of this particular forest that we highly incensed civilians don't have the knowledge to consider and it just might take a little time for the Navy brass to come up with the plans to deal with this challenge. The captain did absolutely nothing but add stress to an already difficult situation.

This is just silly. Even I can see through most of these.