USA Today: Could we be wrong about global warming?

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hahahhaa no shit we could be wrong in climate predictions... we can hardly get next week's weather right...


also I wrote a paper last year about scientific consensus, pretty interesting stuff...
 
Alright, F it, keep in mind this was my first big paper in college so i think it's pretty crappy (I think I got a B on it)

Debunking the Myth of Consensus Science

It was November 5, 2005; Al Gore, riding on the huge publicity that his “controversial” documentary An Inconvenient Truth was generating right before its initial release at Sundance Film Festival (the movie would later go on to win at the Oscars), was being interviewed on the Today Show. That whole week they were going to dedicate to “going green” and Al Gore’s interview (it was on a Monday) was sort of the kickoff for the week. Gore had some very stern words for the world, including: “The reason the IPCC was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize [is because] the thousands of scientists that make up that group have over 20 years created a very strong scientific consensus, that is as strong a consensus as you’ll ever see in science, that the climate crisis is real,” he said. “Human beings are responsible for it, the results [of it] would be very bad for the United States and all human beings, and there is time to solve it” (Celizic). Now I’m not going to argue whether or not Global Warming is real or if it’s caused by man. What I want to do is point out the flaw in this specific part of Mr. Gore’s argument (it’s not just Gore who has used this particular argument before).

Before I begin, I want to answer these two questions: What is scientific consensus? What causes scientific consensus? Knowing the answer to these two questions will prove to be extremely important when reading this thing, because if you don’t know the answers to those, this essay will fly over your head. In his book Explaining Scientific Consensus: The Case of Mendelian Genetics, Kyung-Man Kim defines scientific consensus as “the resolution of an issue of fundamental epistemological importance manifested in the successive transformations of the structure of an evolving network of scientific allies and enemies within a specific period of time” (Kim 20). In short, Kim is saying that scientific consensus is the resolution of a scientific issue (pertaining to new knowledge) through scientists changing “sides” on the issue, depending on their information.

What causes this consensus? Kim, citing the work of Robert Merton and his associates, theorizes that “the Mertonians view scientific elites as a small group of scientists who generate and maintain consensus in the scientific community. Because of their significant contributions to science, the elites can exercise legitimate cognitive authority over average and below-average scientists” (Kim 6). Also, “Because they are the most significant contributors to scientific progress—and, therefore, exercise so-called legitimate authority in evaluating knowledge claims—only scientific “stars” play an important role in establishing and maintaining scientific consensus” (Kim 5). Basically, scientific consensus is established by only the “elites” in science, because whatever they decide, they can exercise their “cognitive authority” and the average and below-average scientists will agree with them.

In that same interview with the Today Show, Gore was questioned about John Christy, who was a member of the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), with whom Gore shared his Nobel Prize, recently wrote an op-ed piece in ‘The Wall Street Journal’ in which he criticized Gore’s dire predictions of the impact of global warming. ‘I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see,’ Christy wrote. Gore said that part of the problem of telling the story of climate change is journalism’s determination to give equal time to people who have opposing viewpoints. He said that Christy is no longer part of the IPCC. ‘He is way outside the scientific consensus,” Gore said. “It’s the old ‘on the one hand, on the other hand’ approach,’ Gore said. ‘There are still people who believe the earth is flat. [But] you don’t search out for someone who believes the earth is flat and give them equal time.’ “(Celizic) Again Gore used the “consensus” argument. This time, however, he compared it to believing the earth is flat. Admittedly, Gore does bring up a good point.

The late Michael Crichton, the author who is most well known for the book Jurassic Park, gave a speech titled Aliens Cause Global Warming at Caltech in 2003 in which he argued that science has nothing to do with consensus. His argument was that science requires only one person to be correct, as long as they have verifiable data in the real world. Then he went on to provide a few examples of when the “consensus” opinion of scientists was proven to be incorrect; continental drift, smallpox, germ theory, and a whole list of others. He concludes his argument by saying that: “Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away.”

Both of these men bring up great points. The basic question behind their arguments is: just when does the “consensus” opinion become knowledge? There are two prominent theories of just this topic; Avezier Tucker’s theory of the knowledge hypothesis, and Miriam Solomon’s theory of social empiricism. Tucker, a professor at the Australian National University, theorized that a consensus becomes knowledge on three conditions: that the individuals who hold the shared consensus are “(1) uncoerced, (2) uniquely heterogenous, and (3) sufficiently large” (Tucker 504). At first glance, the first condition seems to conflict with Kim’s theory, but Tucker clarifies that the only type coercion he is talking about is ‘unwilling acquiescence’ (forced coercion) and he wasn’t too worried about peer pressure, bribery, or other forms of coercion. Tucker’s hypothesis was correct in that when those three factors are fulfilled the consensus usually becomes knowledge, but he provides no “grey area” in case the science supports a completely different view than that of the consensus. Any one of Crichton’s examples could be used here to describe the point more effectively.

Solomon’s theory, on the other hand, is that there are two types of influences (‘decision vectors’) that affect scientists; empirical (based on observation and experience) and non-empirical (any other type of influence). Solomon believes that if there are several rival theories, these empirical ‘decision vectors’ should be distributed among the theories. A consensus is justified when one theory (among a few rival theories) has all of the empirical success (all of one’s empirical ‘decision vectors’ are pointing to that theory). She also argues that throughout history, some consensuses emerge when non-empirical ‘decision vectors’ are accidentally merged with empirical ‘decision vectors’, thus, these consensuses are not justified. This gives Solomon a grey area to where if a consensus is proved wrong by science, she can point to these non-empirical ‘decision vectors’ (Boaz 2). Also, Solomon’s conditions here for a “true consensus” just don’t exist in the real world. But what we can infer from this is that the more empirical success vs. non-empirical success in a theory, the more justified the consensus.

In other words, by combining these two theories together, one can posit that consensus is accepted as knowledge when it satisfies Tucker’s three conditions, and it matches with Solomon’s theory. For an example, let’s go back to Gore’s quote about the “flat earth” people. The “earth is round” idea has been around since Pythagoras and Ancient Greece. It is a completely uncoerced, unbiased viewpoint (condition 1). Scientists of different races, genders, cultures, etc. all believe that the earth is round (condition 2). Third, the group of scientists that agree with the statement that the Earth is round is an extremely large group (condition 3). Now, to satisfy Solomon’s conditions, all of the empirical success has to fit into the Earth is round theory. No theory is perfectly airtight like her theory might suggest, but this one is pretty darn close. The fact that there is hardly any non-empirical success and nearly all of the empirical success in the “Round Earth” theory suggests that the consensus is justified.

Global warming, on the other hand, is a different story. It is an uncoerced consensus (condition 1), there are people all over the world that believe that global warming is real and is manmade (condition 2), and there is a relatively large group of scientists who believe in the theory (although that number changes every day) to satisfy condition 3. Finally, there is still plenty of empirical success not favoring the Global Warming theory, and too much non-empirical evidence for one to say that global warming is a truly justified consensus like the “Round Earth” theory. Thus, the jury is still out on this “consensus” argument.

I was able to find two other very recent instances where the empirical success was unable to justify the consensus. One was a report on secondhand smoke published in the British Medical Journal in 2003. It is considered as one of the longest and most comprehensive studies on secondhand smoke. The report found that secondhand smoke had much smaller effects upon heart disease and lung cancer was “considerably weaker than at first believed” (Enstrom 1057). Four years later, and the president of The Heartland Institute, Joseph Bast, wrote an article in the periodical Health Care News claiming that there still was no consensus that secondhand smoke is a health hazard. Even so, the people who were claiming consensus have been pushing to get policies changed (cigarette taxes, public smoking bans, etc.) without enough concrete evidence (empirical success) to justify it.

Yet another example of an unjustified consensus was in the theory that excess fat is bad for you. In 1988, the Surgeon General proclaimed that fatty foods were just as bad for you as smoking, even though there was hardly any data to back him up (Tierney).

The secondhand smoke controversy and the ‘fat is bad’ controversy happened the same way. A new theory, with hardly any data to back scientists up, caught on and pretty soon everyone was caught in what Tierney called a “information cascade.” Basically what happens in a cascade is a new hypothesis catches on, and pretty soon word of it is spreading around. The “elites”, as mentioned above in Kim’s theory, catch word of it, and listen to everyone else without examining the data, because they assume everyone else can’t be wrong (Tierney). Once the “elites” catch on (like the Surgeon General) and favor a certain way, then the rest of the scientific community usually follows suit.

This phenomena has also happened in global warming; although not to the extent of secondhand smoke or ‘fat is bad’, at least not yet. Scientists, with a lack of hard data, caught on to this idea that the Earth is heating up, and we caused it, and even with a lack of hard data (computers that “predict” the future being their main evidence of what could happen) somebody up high (Gore) caught on and pretty soon everyone else has followed suit.

I find it fascinating that for these 3 very important, recent issues, there really aren’t enough empirical vectors to justify consensus being turned into knowledge, much less changing public policy. I suppose that’s a topic for a different time though.

For my final argument, I’d like you to consider what exactly the words “consensus” and “science” mean. According to dictionary.com:

con⋅sen⋅sus –noun, plural -sus⋅es.
1. majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.

sci⋅ence –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.


As you can see, consensus deals with opinions, while science deals with facts or truths. In fact, the term “consensus science” is actually kind of an oxymoron. I also agree with Mr. Crichton when he said “Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results.”

In conclusion, I don’t believe Al Gore has any right to claim the consensus argument because there isn’t enough justification for the consensus in the first place. Not only that, but the term “consensus science” itself is an oxymoron, “the majority of opinion of a branch of knowledge dealing with a body of facts.” How can there be an opinion on facts? Facts are facts. Finally, I’d argue that Al Gore is about as justified to say, “I invented the Internet,” than for him to argue anything about there being a justified consensus on global warming. Oh, wait…
 
And yes, I do realize that the last paragraph: "opinion on facts" makes zero sense, in fact that's the main part I got marked down on. That was the result of just wanting to get the damn thing done + staying up until 4 AM to finish it.
 
Alright, F it, keep in mind this was my first big paper in college so i think it's pretty crappy (I think I got a B on it)

I think it is not a bad paper, you clearly did a little research and put some thought into it. I've seen much worse. However, you know I can't help but give a little criticism:

The late Michael Crichton, the author who is most well known for the book Jurassic Park, gave a speech titled Aliens Cause Global Warming at Caltech in 2003 in which he argued that science has nothing to do with consensus. His argument was that science requires only one person to be correct, as long as they have verifiable data in the real world. Then he went on to provide a few examples of when the “consensus” opinion of scientists was proven to be incorrect; continental drift, smallpox, germ theory, and a whole list of others. He concludes his argument by saying that: “Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away.”

Criticism of Crichton: The fact that consensus opinions are sometimes wrong isn't useful information. If we throw out all consensus opinions because they might be wrong, what are we left with? Absolutely nothing.
Science may require only one person to be correct (actually science doesn't require anyone to be correct - natural laws presumably exist even if we don't understand them), but that's a useless observation in practice because there is no way for anyone else to know who that one person is. Well, I suppose it works if the one person who is right happens to be King of the World, and can act on his singular understanding. But if he's not King of the World, he either needs to convince others, or the knowledge he has will not be put to use.

Both of these men bring up great points. The basic question behind their arguments is: just when does the “consensus” opinion become knowledge? There are two prominent theories of just this topic; Avezier Tucker’s theory of the knowledge hypothesis, and Miriam Solomon’s theory of social empiricism. Tucker, a professor at the Australian National University, theorized that a consensus becomes knowledge on three conditions: that the individuals who hold the shared consensus are “(1) uncoerced, (2) uniquely heterogenous, and (3) sufficiently large” (Tucker 504). At first glance, the first condition seems to conflict with Kim’s theory, but Tucker clarifies that the only type coercion he is talking about is ‘unwilling acquiescence’ (forced coercion) and he wasn’t too worried about peer pressure, bribery, or other forms of coercion. Tucker’s hypothesis was correct in that when those three factors are fulfilled the consensus usually becomes knowledge, but he provides no “grey area” in case the science supports a completely different view than that of the consensus. Any one of Crichton’s examples could be used here to describe the point more effectively.

Not sure what you are trying to say here about the grey area. Crichton's examples are cases where there was consensus for a incorrect conclusion because there wasn't sufficient (or sufficiently well known) data to show otherwise. Thus they aren't cases where "the science supports a completely different view than the consensus", unless you mean the science not yet known. And it is pretty obvious that science that we don't yet know, we don't yet know. It might, for instance, turn out someday that the Sun isn't 93 million miles away (due to a major gap in our current understanding of the universe). Should we, then, because of that possibility, throw out the current consensus distance?

In other words, by combining these two theories together, one can posit that consensus is accepted as knowledge when it satisfies Tucker’s three conditions, and it matches with Solomon’s theory.

I think you are making your own theory here - you could just as easily(?) have argued that Solomon was right or Tucker was right, and discarded the other. Or posited that there are more, or different conditions. This isn't a criticism, just an observation. I think your choice is interesting.

For an example, let’s go back to Gore’s quote about the “flat earth” people. The “earth is round” idea has been around since Pythagoras and Ancient Greece. It is a completely uncoerced, unbiased viewpoint (condition 1). Scientists of different races, genders, cultures, etc. all believe that the earth is round (condition 2). Third, the group of scientists that agree with the statement that the Earth is round is an extremely large group (condition 3). Now, to satisfy Solomon’s conditions, all of the empirical success has to fit into the Earth is round theory. No theory is perfectly airtight like her theory might suggest, but this one is pretty darn close. The fact that there is hardly any non-empirical success and nearly all of the empirical success in the “Round Earth” theory suggests that the consensus is justified.

Right.

Global warming, on the other hand, is a different story. It is an uncoerced consensus (condition 1), there are people all over the world that believe that global warming is real and is manmade (condition 2), and there is a relatively large group of scientists who believe in the theory (although that number changes every day) to satisfy condition 3. Finally, there is still plenty of empirical success not favoring the Global Warming theory, and too much non-empirical evidence for one to say that global warming is a truly justified consensus like the “Round Earth” theory. Thus, the jury is still out on this “consensus” argument.

Here's where your argument goes off the rails. It is certainly the case that Global Warming is not as strong a consensus as Round Earth, but is Round Earth really the benchmark? Anything weaker than Round Earth is not a consensus? That would eliminate much of the science done in the past couple of centuries.

I was able to find two other very recent instances where the empirical success was unable to justify the consensus. One was a report on secondhand smoke published in the British Medical Journal in 2003. It is considered as one of the longest and most comprehensive studies on secondhand smoke. The report found that secondhand smoke had much smaller effects upon heart disease and lung cancer was “considerably weaker than at first believed” (Enstrom 1057). Four years later, and the president of The Heartland Institute, Joseph Bast, wrote an article in the periodical Health Care News claiming that there still was no consensus that secondhand smoke is a health hazard. Even so, the people who were claiming consensus have been pushing to get policies changed (cigarette taxes, public smoking bans, etc.) without enough concrete evidence (empirical success) to justify it.

I can hear PapaG already charging me with smearing, but the Heartland Institute was funded by the tobacco companies, and has a well documented history of industry flackery. The fact that they say there is no consensus on secondhand smoke is really no different than Phillip Morris saying there is no consensus on secondhand smoke.

Your conclusion (that there isn't enough empirical evidence) isn't justified by the data you presented.

Yet another example of an unjustified consensus was in the theory that excess fat is bad for you. In 1988, the Surgeon General proclaimed that fatty foods were just as bad for you as smoking, even though there was hardly any data to back him up (Tierney).

Here you don't even attempt to show there was an unjustified consensus, you simply claim one based on the action of a single man, the surgeon general. Quite a leap of logic.

The secondhand smoke controversy and the ‘fat is bad’ controversy happened the same way. A new theory, with hardly any data to back scientists up, caught on and pretty soon everyone was caught in what Tierney called a “information cascade.” Basically what happens in a cascade is a new hypothesis catches on, and pretty soon word of it is spreading around. The “elites”, as mentioned above in Kim’s theory, catch word of it, and listen to everyone else without examining the data, because they assume everyone else can’t be wrong (Tierney). Once the “elites” catch on (like the Surgeon General) and favor a certain way, then the rest of the scientific community usually follows suit.

You claim the elites listen to everyone else without examining the data because they assume everyone else can't be wrong, but previously you quoted the elites as being scientific stars who contributed more than any of the others. Your description of elites is rather at odds with that. One doesn't become a scientific star by assuming everyone else knows the answers.

For my final argument, I’d like you to consider what exactly the words “consensus” and “science” mean. According to dictionary.com:

con⋅sen⋅sus –noun, plural -sus⋅es.
1. majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.

sci⋅ence –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.


As you can see, consensus deals with opinions, while science deals with facts or truths. In fact, the term “consensus science” is actually kind of an oxymoron.

Then why did you spend most of the paper discussing theories of scientific consensus? This paragraph basically says: everything above here is filler. It's also a much, much weaker argument than the stuff you wrote and have now declared irrelevant.

I also agree with Mr. Crichton when he said “Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results.”

Guess we better quit studying the big bang, then, right? Or dinosaurs, since only Crichton can bring them back to life (and he's dead now).

barfo
 
I went ahead and cherry picked the ones I might be able to argue effectively :lol:

Criticism of Crichton: The fact that consensus opinions are sometimes wrong isn't useful information. If we throw out all consensus opinions because they might be wrong, what are we left with? Absolutely nothing.
Science may require only one person to be correct (actually science doesn't require anyone to be correct - natural laws presumably exist even if we don't understand them), but that's a useless observation in practice because there is no way for anyone else to know who that one person is. Well, I suppose it works if the one person who is right happens to be King of the World, and can act on his singular understanding. But if he's not King of the World, he either needs to convince others, or the knowledge he has will not be put to use.

Fair enough, although what I gathered from that Crichton speech is that there doesn't need to be a consensus in modern(?) science.


Woohoo! :ghoti:

I think you are making your own theory here - you could just as easily(?) have argued that Solomon was right or Tucker was right, and discarded the other. Or posited that there are more, or different conditions. This isn't a criticism, just an observation. I think your choice is interesting.

I liked the idea of using both instead of using one or the other. Can't really articulate why.

Here's where your argument goes off the rails. It is certainly the case that Global Warming is not as strong a consensus as Round Earth, but is Round Earth really the benchmark? Anything weaker than Round Earth is not a consensus? That would eliminate much of the science done in the past couple of centuries.

I felt that recently in the media Global Warming has been more declared as a fact than as a theory (perhaps I should have said this somewhere in the essay). On the news we have gone from talking about Global Warming as a debate of if it's happening or not to a "How can we prevent it?" type of thing. This is why I used Round Earth, because hardly anybody (except the flat earthers, obviously) refutes it as fact. If the theory of Global Warming isn't a "fact" in the same vein as Round Earth, should we really be talking about it that way? I dunno, I'm probably wrong here too lol.

I can hear PapaG already charging me with smearing, but the Heartland Institute was funded by the tobacco companies, and has a well documented history of industry flackery. The fact that they say there is no consensus on secondhand smoke is really no different than Phillip Morris saying there is no consensus on secondhand smoke.

Your conclusion (that there isn't enough empirical evidence) isn't justified by the data you presented.

I did not know about the Heartland Institute thing, perhaps further research is/was needed? Also, isn't the report, called the "most comprehensive" study on secondhand smoke, enough empirical evidence to prevent policies which might be discriminating against certain types of people (smokers).

Here you don't even attempt to show there was an unjustified consensus, you simply claim one based on the action of a single man, the surgeon general. Quite a leap of logic.

I agree with this now, although at the time I was running on the assertion that for the Surgeon General to declare something like that there has to be some sort of consensus among scientists + people. Also, consider the effects among people after he declares that, "If the Surgeon General proclaims it, it has to be true, right?"

You claim the elites listen to everyone else without examining the data because they assume everyone else can't be wrong, but previously you quoted the elites as being scientific stars who contributed more than any of the others. Your description of elites is rather at odds with that. One doesn't become a scientific star by assuming everyone else knows the answers.

This is also probably true. But perhaps (huge leap of logic here) once they became "stars" a few of them got lazy? Haha I dunno just trying to make my original point make sense.

Then why did you spend most of the paper discussing theories of scientific consensus? This paragraph basically says: everything above here is filler. It's also a much, much weaker argument than the stuff you wrote and have now declared irrelevant.

Yeah this is also kinda true. See above for my "trying to finish the paper excuse".

Guess we better quit studying the big bang, then, right? Or dinosaurs, since only Crichton can bring them back to life (and he's dead now).

Aren't they getting to the point to where they can "reproduce" the big bang (although to a much, much smaller scale)? I think I read it in a Dan Brown book :tongue2:
 
Aren't they getting to the point to where they can "reproduce" the big bang (although to a much, much smaller scale)? I think I read it in a Dan Brown book :tongue2:

Scientists hope to, with the Large Hadron Collider.

Though some believe that the LHC will create a black hole that will swallow the Earth. Of course, the scientific consensus is that such an event is pretty unlikely. :)
 
Scientists hope to, with the Large Hadron Collider.

Though some believe that the LHC will create a black hole that will swallow the Earth. Of course, the scientific consensus is that that is pretty unlikely. :)

well this time let's hope the consensus is right lol
 
Fair enough, although what I gathered from that Crichton speech is that there doesn't need to be a consensus in modern(?) science.

There doesn't need to be, I'd say. There are lots of topics in science where no consensus (yet?) exists. Some things we just have no frickin idea about, and people are casting about for clues. I'd say "consensus happens" sometimes, but it isn't something that you've got to rush right out and get.

I liked the idea of using both instead of using one or the other. Can't really articulate why.

It did make it easier to argue that there was no global warming consensus, since you say that global warming does meet all three of Tucker's criteria for consensus.

I felt that recently in the media Global Warming has been more declared as a fact than as a theory (perhaps I should have said this somewhere in the essay). On the news we have gone from talking about Global Warming as a debate of if it's happening or not to a "How can we prevent it?" type of thing. This is why I used Round Earth, because hardly anybody (except the flat earthers, obviously) refutes it as fact. If the theory of Global Warming isn't a "fact" in the same vein as Round Earth, should we really be talking about it that way? I dunno, I'm probably wrong here too lol.

No, you are absolutely right. We shouldn't be talking about it as fact.

Also, isn't the report, called the "most comprehensive" study on secondhand smoke, enough empirical evidence to prevent policies which might be discriminating against certain types of people (smokers).

Not from what you quoted, because all it says is the effects are less than previously thought. It doesn't say the effects are zero or negligible.

But perhaps (huge leap of logic here) once they became "stars" a few of them got lazy? Haha I dunno just trying to make my original point make sense.

I thought of that also, and I think you are correct. Some of them do get fat and lazy.

barfo
 
There doesn't need to be, I'd say. There are lots of topics in science where no consensus (yet?) exists. Some things we just have no frickin idea about, and people are casting about for clues. I'd say "consensus happens" sometimes, but it isn't something that you've got to rush right out and get.

I agree with this. It just seems funny to me that most of the time people use the "consensus" or say things like "scientists agree" etc. to strengthen their own argument.

It did make it easier to argue that there was no global warming consensus, since you say that global warming does meet all three of Tucker's criteria for consensus.

Haha I did think of this as I was looking back over the essay. Probably one of the reasons why I did it (or I could have even just argued against Tucker's theory too).

Not from what you quoted, because all it says is the effects are less than previously thought. It doesn't say the effects are zero or negligible.

True.

I thought of that also, and I think you are correct. Some of them do get fat and lazy.

I call this the "Eddy Curry effect".
 
barfo said:
Criticism of Crichton: The fact that consensus opinions are sometimes wrong isn't useful information. If we throw out all consensus opinions because they might be wrong, what are we left with? Absolutely nothing.

Science may require only one person to be correct (actually science doesn't require anyone to be correct - natural laws presumably exist even if we don't understand them), but that's a useless observation in practice because there is no way for anyone else to know who that one person is. Well, I suppose it works if the one person who is right happens to be King of the World, and can act on his singular understanding. But if he's not King of the World, he either needs to convince others, or the knowledge he has will not be put to use.

Criticism of Barfo: when there is no true consensus (the Sun is 93M miles away), there are conflicting theories and we're just not sure that any one of them is right.

The one person needs to be published is all. This is how science eventually gets things right.

I offer the first americans and the Clovis-first theory as an example.

The consensus for the longest time was that asians crossed a land bridge in the Bering Straights to Alaska and migrated southward, something like 11,000 years ago. Then Tom Dillehay of the University of Kentucky dug in a cave in south america where there was a fire pit of ancient origin. As he dug deeper, he passed the 11,000 years and kept digging. He found evidence of humans back to over 12,000 years. When he presented his findings, he was greeted with death threats, ridicule, etc.

So he was there, outside the consensus, and the system fought the truth to maintain the status quo. Then the body of a Caucasian was found in Washington State, carbon dated to 10,000 years ago. It was in the news a lot, actually. The scientists wanted to study the body, the native americans wanted to claim the remains and bury the body. It went to court and the native americans won.

Even more evidence that the first americans were here more than 9,000 years ago came to light and eventually science came around.

The issue is that it isn't about consensus at all. It's about finding remains (real evidence) and the carbon dating being undeniable factual data.

Nearly every account of how this Truth came about includes something like this:

http://history.howstuffworks.com/native-american-history/clovis1.htm

For decades, archaeologists and anthropologists who subscribed to the Clovis-First theory so ardently believed that this early culture was the first to settle the Americas that they jealously guarded their ideas and evidence. A "Clovis barrier" [source: Rose] shielded by the scientists who formed a sort of "Clovis police" [source: UNL] discounted any other theory that placed other cultures in the Americas earlier than the Clovis.
 
And for Minstrel:

sci⋅ence –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

I chose to capitalize the word for THAT meaning.
 
Not to go wildly OT, but I have to wonder if the Big Bang Theory might someday be in jeopardy.

While it is a consensus view of the origin of the universe, there are leaps of faith involved that might be faulty.

For starters, it relies on our perception of things from our place in the universe. I have to wonder if we were a lot closer to the center of the universe if things might be perceived differently.

Then there's the whole "reverse the film" of the expansion we perceive and thus everything had to originate from a single point. I'm not sure we can do this with certainty. As an example, we have been measuring the distance of the moon from the earth using lasers bounced off of mirrors left by the Apollo astronauts. We find that the moon is moving away from the earth at about 3 inches per year (at some point, it will leave orbit, many many years from now). If you reverse that film, the moon gets closer and closer to the earth and eventually they occupy the same space. I don't know any scientist who claims the moon magically appeared from the center of the earth and started a slow spiral orbit outward from it.

I'm not proposing an alternate theory here, just pointing out that the conclusions based on the observed evidence may simply be wrong.

If I were to propose an alternate theory, the universe may have originated from something the size of a breadbox. Or maybe as a massive black hole - larger than the singularity at its center. We observe there are massive black holes at the center of galaxies, why not the whole universe?

The point I want to make with this post is simply that the orthodoxy must continuously be challenged if Science is to continuously work. There are no settled theories or even laws.

Is the sun really 93M miles away? Maybe it's 92.9M some of the time and 93.1M some other part of the time. The answer isn't always so clear.
 
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Criticism of Barfo: when there is no true consensus (the Sun is 93M miles away), there are conflicting theories and we're just not sure that any one of them is right.

The one person needs to be published is all. This is how science eventually gets things right.

I agree completely. That's what I meant by 'convincing others'.

And, given that we now have the internets, everyone gets published. You don't even have to go thru peer review to get published these days. Absolutely nobody gets "squashed" anymore, no matter how different their views are from mainstream science.

So I'm not sure what you are so concerned with. If the current consensus (about anything, including global warming) is incorrect, eventually we'll figure that out. That's the way science has always worked, and if anything, it should work better now given that it is much easier to share data and theories.

The downside, of course, is the sort of mass hysteria that we've got with global warming, with two lay camps going at each other with pitchforks over science that they don't even understand.

barfo
 
The downside, of course, is the sort of mass hysteria that we've got with global warming, with two lay camps going at each other with pitchforks over science that they don't even understand.

barfo

That's spot on.
 
That's like saying one person needs to have the idea in order for a truth (I use that term loosely) to be discovered. That seems blindingly obvious.

Sometimes, though, you just can't find absolute, hard critical facts that can withstand time. Suppose, for example, there were indisputable facts that some pattern had occurred over the last 10,000 years? You'd just argue that it's not relevant because it doesn't cover 100K years and we won't know for another 90K years whether it's valid. You'd be leaving a lot of things open to invalidation and inactivity.

BTW,
eventually science came around.
that's a pretty broad brush stroke you are painting with. One would hope that science led the way around and what you meant is that the general consensus came around.

Criticism of Barfo: when there is no true consensus (the Sun is 93M miles away), there are conflicting theories and we're just not sure that any one of them is right.

The one person needs to be published is all. This is how science eventually gets things right.

I offer the first americans and the Clovis-first theory as an example.

The consensus for the longest time was that asians crossed a land bridge in the Bering Straights to Alaska and migrated southward, something like 11,000 years ago. Then Tom Dillehay of the University of Kentucky dug in a cave in south america where there was a fire pit of ancient origin. As he dug deeper, he passed the 11,000 years and kept digging. He found evidence of humans back to over 12,000 years. When he presented his findings, he was greeted with death threats, ridicule, etc.

So he was there, outside the consensus, and the system fought the truth to maintain the status quo. Then the body of a Caucasian was found in Washington State, carbon dated to 10,000 years ago. It was in the news a lot, actually. The scientists wanted to study the body, the native americans wanted to claim the remains and bury the body. It went to court and the native americans won.

Even more evidence that the first americans were here more than 9,000 years ago came to light and eventually science came around.

The issue is that it isn't about consensus at all. It's about finding remains (real evidence) and the carbon dating being undeniable factual data.

Nearly every account of how this Truth came about includes something like this:

http://history.howstuffworks.com/native-american-history/clovis1.htm

For decades, archaeologists and anthropologists who subscribed to the Clovis-First theory so ardently believed that this early culture was the first to settle the Americas that they jealously guarded their ideas and evidence. A "Clovis barrier" [source: Rose] shielded by the scientists who formed a sort of "Clovis police" [source: UNL] discounted any other theory that placed other cultures in the Americas earlier than the Clovis.
 
And for Minstrel:

sci⋅ence –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

I chose to capitalize the word for THAT meaning.

Empirical facts and truths. The definition leaving that word out is a mistake, but probably not necessary for casual conversation. It is a very important distinction, though, since science is self-consciously not about truth...considering that models are overturned and expected to be overturned as more knowledge is gained.

Capitalizing the word "truth" implies absolute truth which is certainly wrong. If the scientific community did believe that they were in the absolute truth business, they certainly wouldn't have replaced Newtonian models with newer ones that worked better. Continuously updating to go with what works better is counter to believing what one is doing is absolute truth.
 
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2282/...-Religion-Urge-Chancellor-to-reconsider-views

More than 60 German Scientists Dissent Over Global Warming Claims! Call Climate Fears 'Pseudo 'Religion'; Urge Chancellor to 'reconsider' views

'Growing body of evidence shows anthropogenic CO2 plays no measurable role'

Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - By Marc Morano – Climate Depot More than 60 prominent German scientists have publicly declared their dissent from man-made global warming fears in an Open Letter to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The more than 60 signers of the letter include several United Nations IPCC scientists.

The scientists declared that global warming has become a “pseudo religion” and they noted that rising CO2 has “had no measurable effect” on temperatures. The German scientists, also wrote that the “UN IPCC has lost its scientific credibility.”

This latest development comes on the heels of a series of inconvenient developments for the promoters of man-made global warming fears, including new peer-reviewed studies, real world data, a growing chorus of scientists dissenting (including more UN IPCC scientists), open revolts in scientific societies and the Earth's failure to warm. In addition, public opinion continues to turn against climate fear promotion. (See "Related Links" at bottom of this article for more inconvenient scientific developments.)

The July 26, 2009 German scientist letter urged Chancellor Merkel to “strongly reconsider” her position on global warming and requested a “convening of an impartial panel” that is “free of ideology” to counter the UN IPCC and review the latest climate science developments.

The scientists, from many disciplines, including physicists, meteorology, chemistry, and geology, explain that “humans have had no measurable effect on global warming through CO2 emissions. Instead the temperature fluctuations have been within normal ranges and are due to natural cycles.”

“More importantly, there's a growing body of evidence showing anthropogenic CO2 plays no measurable role,” the scientists wrote. “Indeed CO2's capability to absorb radiation is already exhausted by today's atmospheric concentrations. If CO2 did indeed have an effect and all fossil fuels were burned, then additional warming over the long term would in fact remain limited to only a few tenths of a degree,” they added.

“The IPCC had to have been aware of this fact, but completely ignored it during its studies of 160 years of temperature measurements and 150 years of determined CO2 levels. As a result the IPCC has lost its scientific credibility,” the scientists wrote.

Indeed the atmosphere has not warmed since 1998 – more than 10 years, and the global temperature has even dropped significantly since 2003. Not one of the many extremely expensive climate models predicted this. According to the IPCC, it was supposed to have gotten steadily warmer, but just the opposite has occurred,” the scientists wrote.

“The belief of climate change, and that it is manmade, has become a pseudo-religion,” the scientists wrote. “The German media has sadly taken a leading position in refusing to publicize views that are critical of anthropogenic global warming,” they added.

“Do you not believe, Madam Chancellor, that science entails more than just confirming a hypothesis, but also involves testing to see if the opposite better explains reality? We strongly urge you to reconsider your position on this subject and to convene an impartial panel for the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, one that is free of ideology, and where controversial arguments can be openly debated. We the undersigned would very much like to offer support in this regard.

I'm sure these scientists aren't "experts".
 
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That's like saying one person needs to have the idea in order for a truth (I use that term loosely) to be discovered. That seems blindingly obvious.

Sometimes, though, you just can't find absolute, hard critical facts that can withstand time. Suppose, for example, there were indisputable facts that some pattern had occurred over the last 10,000 years? You'd just argue that it's not relevant because it doesn't cover 100K years and we won't know for another 90K years whether it's valid. You'd be leaving a lot of things open to invalidation and inactivity.

BTW, that's a pretty broad brush stroke you are painting with. One would hope that science led the way around and what you meant is that the general consensus came around.

What I meant is the consensus group think guys who were in effect flat-earthers, had no choice but give up their favorite and overly defended theories. Only after resisting with every fiber of their being (as opposed to scientific inquiry), and only after a mountain of evidence was already making them look like they have egg on their face.

Much like Al Gore ripping the hurricane claims from his award "winning" powerpoint presentation after his dire predictions failed to appear.
 
Empirical facts and truths. The definition leaving that word out is a mistake, but probably not necessary for casual conversation. It is a very important distinction, though, since science is self-consciously not about truth...considering that models are overturned and expected to be overturned as more knowledge is gained.

Capitalizing the word "truth" implies absolute truth which is certainly wrong. If the scientific community did believe that they were in the absolute truth business, they certainly wouldn't have replaced Newtonian models with newer ones that worked better. Continuously updating to go with what works better is counter to believing what one is doing is absolute truth.

Go write your own dictionary. Maybe you can redefine blue to mean green while your at it.

:lol:

But seriously, I am mocking the chicken little crowd because they proffer their "findings" as Truth. Literal truth. Undeniable. Opponents are deniers. The science is settled. There's conclusive proof. The evidence is overwhelming.

Hardly good science.
 
Go write your own dictionary.

Maybe I will. Maybe. I. Will.

But seriously, I am mocking the chicken little crowd because they proffer their "findings" as Truth. Literal truth. Undeniable. Opponents are deniers. The science is settled. There's conclusive proof. The evidence is overwhelming.

Hardly good science.

Sure, but they are rarely scientists (Al Gore, for example). And when they are, they are usually acting as politicians, not as scientists (clearly, this can be done by both proponents and opponents of global warming theories). The endeavour of science is not about absolute truths, but individuals obviously can wage their own wars of propaganda.
 
Maybe I will. Maybe. I. Will.

There is no "I" in "team" but there is an "I" in wIn.

Sure, but they are rarely scientists (Al Gore, for example). And when they are, they are usually acting as politicians, not as scientists (clearly, this can be done by both proponents and opponents of global warming theories). The endeavour of science is not about absolute truths, but individuals obviously can wage their own wars of propaganda.

It's routinely scientists. The letters to the editor in the ACS journal is the tip of the iceberg. The 60 scientists in the article papag posted are scientists - and that's just today's news.

My turn to define a word. "Squash." In this context, it means to:
1) Deny funding
2) Threaten funding
3) Refuse to publish
4) Refuse to take TV ads voicing a position
5) Peer pressure (ridicule)
 
There is no "I" in "team" but there is an "I" in wIn.



It's routinely scientists. The letters to the editor in the ACS journal is the tip of the iceberg. The 60 scientists in the article papag posted are scientists - and that's just today's news.

My turn to define a word. "Squash." In this context, it means to:
1) Deny funding
2) Threaten funding
3) Refuse to publish
4) Refuse to take TV ads voicing a position
5) Peer pressure (ridicule)

How about "(6) Revise federally funded scientific papers to correspond to White House agenda"?
 
It's routinely scientists. The letters to the editor in the ACS journal is the tip of the iceberg. The 60 scientists in the article papag posted are scientists - and that's just today's news.

I think you misread Minstrel's post. Or you've suddenly switched sides?

barfo
 
BTW:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/

Global Warming Petition

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth. [/FONT]

This petition has been signed by over 31,000 American scientists.




[FONT=Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,Helv][SIZE=+2]Letter from Frederick Seitz [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,Helv][SIZE=+1]Research Review of Global Warming Evidence

[/SIZE][/FONT] Enclosed is a twelve-page review of information on the subject of "global warming," a petition in the form of a reply card, and a return envelope. Please consider these materials carefully. The United States is very close to adopting an international agreement that would ration the use of energy and of technologies that depend upon coal, oil, and natural gas and some other organic compounds.

This treaty is, in our opinion, based upon flawed ideas. Research data on climate change do not show that human use of hydrocarbons is harmful. To the contrary, there is good evidence that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide is environmentally helpful.

The proposed agreement would have very negative effects upon the technology of nations throughout the world, especially those that are currently attempting to lift from poverty and provide opportunities to the over 4 billion people in technologically underdeveloped countries.

It is especially important for America to hear from its citizens who have the training necessary to evaluate the relevant data and offer sound advice.

We urge you to sign and return the petition card. If you would like more cards for use by your colleagues, these will be sent.

Frederick Seitz
Past President, National Academy of Sciences, U.S.A.
President Emeritus, Rockefeller University

And the 12 page review:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
 

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