Vince Carter's Contract Should Cost Thorn His Job

[ghoti]

If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned.

If Ratner had nothing to do with it, Thorn should be immediately fired.

 

[Belarus]

Now let's convey the message to Thorn

 

[GMJ]

I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.

 

[killa kadafi191]

as I said over and over Carter's contract is a joke.

The Nets are aware they made a huge mistake. How do you sign a player in the summer for a total of four to five years and are open to trading him two months in to the season????????


If he didn't fit into the teams long term plans or if they were not that committed to him why give him that contract???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.</div>

By the time the team moves to Brooklyn where will Carter be in his career??? His popularity is not exactly high right now. I can understand if we were moving to Brooklyn in a year but this won't be till 2010.

Someone will have to bite the bullet on this one.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Feb 9 2008, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.</div>

Right.

Thorn is either incompetent or spineless.

Either way he isn't doing what is best for the Nets franchise and their fans. Thorn makes me want to vomit.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Feb 9 2008, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.</div>

Right.

Thorn is either incompetent or spineless.

Either way he isn't doing what is best for the Nets franchise and their fans. Thorn makes me want to vomit.
</div>


I think Thorn is doing what best for Thorn now. He keeps saying that he will not make a trade if it doesn't make sense.

The only reason I feel Thorn is saying this because he does not want to be looked as Babcock, King or Thomas.

Kidd needs to go and I understand waiting for the right offer but Kidd shoulda been traded this summer. No more tweaks or minor adjustments. Time for a full scrap.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (killa kadafi191 @ Feb 9 2008, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Feb 9 2008, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.</div>

Right.

Thorn is either incompetent or spineless.

Either way he isn't doing what is best for the Nets franchise and their fans. Thorn makes me want to vomit.
</div>


I think Thorn is doing what best for Thorn now. He keeps saying that he will not make a trade if it doesn't make sense.

The only reason I feel Thorn is saying this because he does not want to be looked as Babcock, King or Thomas.

Kidd needs to go and I understand waiting for the right offer but Kidd shoulda been traded this summer. No more tweaks or minor adjustments. Time for a full scrap.
</div>

He only gets paid the remainder of his contract if he gets fired, not if he quits.

I already think he's in that sorry group. In fact, add McHale and take out Babcock. Babcock made a trade with Thorn that bolstered the future of his club.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (killa kadafi191 @ Feb 9 2008, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Feb 9 2008, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think one could argue they were on the same page about the signing. Rater needs a 'name' player to bring into Brooklyn, and Thorn needs another veteran to overpay.</div>

Right.

Thorn is either incompetent or spineless.

Either way he isn't doing what is best for the Nets franchise and their fans. Thorn makes me want to vomit.
</div>


I think Thorn is doing what best for Thorn now. He keeps saying that he will not make a trade if it doesn't make sense.

The only reason I feel Thorn is saying this because he does not want to be looked as Babcock, King or Thomas.

Kidd needs to go and I understand waiting for the right offer but Kidd shoulda been traded this summer. No more tweaks or minor adjustments. Time for a full scrap.
</div>

He only gets paid the remainder of his contract if he gets fired, not if he quits.

I already think he's in that sorry group. In fact, add McHale and take out Babcock. Babcock made a trade with Thorn that bolstered the future of his club.
</div>

my god how could I ever forget McHale????

 

[Lavalamp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned.</div>

Lol, come on...

If you were Ratner, and had the choice to

1. Obey your boss, and if the owner wants to spend the money the way he wants, then respect it.

2. Willingly leave a million dollar job, move your family to a different city, and most likely find a lesser job.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Feb 9 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned.</div>

Lol, come on...

If you were Ratner, and had the choice to

1. Obey your boss, and if the owner wants to spend the money the way he wants, then respect it.

2. Willingly leave a million dollar job, move your family to a different city, and most likely find a lesser job.
</div>

Sickening.

He's not a cashier at Wal-Mart, he's Rod freaking Thorn.

You would think his reputation and integrity would be worth something to him.

 

[Lavalamp]

How many GMs have we heard about them voluntarily leaving their job (for any reason at all) when they have no guaranteed replacement job?

 

[Jizzy]

ratner obviously told thorn to resign vinchenzo. i dont understand why we resigned him for so much however. no other team wanted him

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 9 2008, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ratner obviously told thorn to resign vinchenzo. i dont understand why we resigned him for so much however. no other team wanted him</div>


I wonder that too. Lewis went to the Magic and Bobcats traded for Richardson and paid Wallace.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Feb 9 2008, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ratner obviously told thorn to resign vinchenzo. i dont understand why we resigned him for so much however. no other team wanted him</div>

There wasn't a reasonable price or length of contract that would have been acceptable.

Carter should have been traded last year for a bag of balls.

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 9 2008, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Ratner made him sign Carter, Thorn should have showed some integrity and resigned.

If Ratner had nothing to do with it, Thorn should be immediately fired.</div>

But if we'd played hardball with Carter, we might have forced him into a shorter contract for less money!

What if he took it personally? I mean, you need to think that a player in that situation might do a little bit less on effort plays like defense, or running the fast break. He might stop giving that little bit of extra effort that helps teams win.

He might not play hard enough for us to be a championship-level team.

 

[SportsTicker]

Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.</div>


true and I agree kidd would not have demanded a trade if he would have gotten paid.

the point is they signed the player for four to five years and in two months they're willing to trade him?? What's the point in signing him if your willing to trade him away.


What has changed from the summer to the December. Did the Nets really expect to compete with Boston and Pistons???

Did they just realize that the big three does not work??

 

[JAMES.SLIMM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.</div>



You know some people on this board can't go a day with out blaming Carter for this teams poor record , for Kidd wanting a trade and so on and so on Blame Carter for everything wrong with the world

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMES.SLIMM @ Feb 10 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.</div>



You know some people on this board can't go a day with out blaming Carter for this teams poor record , for Kidd wanting a trade and so on and so on Blame Carter for everything wrong with the world
</div>

Read thread title. Who am I blaming?

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.</div>

Hey, if you want Thorn fired because of the bench, I'm right there with you.

You want him gone because he wasted Kidd's championship years and made him into a bitter, disgruntled pain in the ass? Also fine.

Those things were less forseeable and a lot easier to fix than Carter's albatross of an escalating contract, though. That was just blatant stupidity no matter who was behind it.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMES.SLIMM @ Feb 10 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Major blah, blah, blah throughout this thread.

Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!

Here's a bulletin for you: the bench sucks. You can start there. You want to blame Thorn and/or Ratner for something: blame them for wasting money--$5.5 million on Magloire, Allen and Armstrong. And don't give me all this wonder about Darrell Armstrong. He's 39 and can barely play 15 solid minutes a game. No one--let me repeat NO ONE--would give him guaranteed money this summer, not the Nets, not the Pacers, not the Mavs. Same goes for Allen. Nachbar has been inconsistent, to be kind. Williams has been hurt. Wright has been awful on offense and often hurt. They cannot shoot.

Here's another: one starter and one key backup have yet to get into game shape after missing the first half of the season.

Here's a third: the team captain demanded an $13 million extension, first faked a migraine in protest--knowing the team's first two backup PG's were out, then stopped caring and demanded a trade. You think Kidd would have demanded a trade if he had gotten that extension? You would be completely naive if you did.

Until this board gets by conventional wisdom, it will not rise to its potential.</div>



You know some people on this board can't go a day with out blaming Carter for this teams poor record , for Kidd wanting a trade and so on and so on Blame Carter for everything wrong with the world
</div>


who is blaming Carter. No one has said this is Carter's fault or he is not producing. The point is the Nets signed VC to a long term contract. So at one point the Nets felt that VC fitted in to their long term plans but two months into the season the Nets are willing to trade him.

What was the point in signing him in the summer if you are willing to trade him in winter????


Now if Carter brings the Nets a value piece. I'll retract my statement but from where I am standing that was a dumb move.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (killa kadafi191 @ Feb 10 2008, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Now if Carter brings the Nets a value piece. I'll retract my statement but from where I am standing that was an dumb move.</div>

He won't now, that's for sure.

He would have last year, the year before, the year before that or if he picked up his option.

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!</div>

This team's lack of success when Carter was healthy had an upper cap on the number of playoff series they could win. This group is still, at best, a second round exit, and that's with everyone playing to their peak potential. MAYBE we sneak through to the ECF, but is this team going to beat Boston, or LA, or San Antonio or Dallas, or Detroit, or Phoenix? I say the probability is low.

Add on top of that Carter's above-average propensity to get hurt. I don't think this has caused him to miss time, per say - he's played more minutes and more games than any other Net over the last 3+ years. But I do think it's become an integral part of how he plays - every drive he's making a decision about whether he's going to risk his body and health to get a score. I'm not surprised he doesn't like to drive, run the floor or play intense defense - those are all effort plays that tend to get people hurt.

Now, add on top of that that he's an inward-focused introvert on a team without a vocal leader. Considering his age, fame and experience, any large contract is going to implicitly tag him as one of the leaders of the team. Guys said it all of last year - Vince and Kidd are the leaders of the team - when neither of them has any natural talent for leading, except for the fact that Jason Kidd really, really, really wants to win.

The sum of this was a lack of a market for Vince at the price we signed him at. And now (SHOCK!) everyone's looking at his contract as a bad investment because he's suddenly (SHOCK!) hurt again. The issue isn't just that Thorn didn't realize this - it's the fact that EVERY OTHER GM IN THE LEAGUE DID! To the point where they were TELLING THE PRESS BEFORE FREE AGENCY EVEN STARTED!

The bottom line is this: if you're going to compete against yourself and sign a 31-year old player, one who isn't a leader, and who can't be coerced to play defense or run the floor, one with no other options, to an escalating contract to be part of a roster with a rapidly closing window of opportunity, you deserve to take the blame when the window shuts all of 6 months later and you suddenly can't rebuild because NO-ONE WANTS HIS CONTRACT!

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Feb 10 2008, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NetIncome @ Feb 10 2008, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carter averaged 25/6/4 last year. With Krstic out and RJ playing at 70% when he played and at 0% for 21 games, he was the team's only legitimate scoring option.

So this year, he gets hurt and is averaging a mere 21/5/5. He isn't demanding a trade. He isn't complaining and for all this hoot and holler about his contract, his salary isn't even in the top 35 this season.

Ratner owns the team. He pays the bills. Of course, it was his decision. Are you that naive to think he let someone else commit $66 million of his money? You think he made this decision without running it through his vaunted marketing mechanism? Please.

Moreover, you think this team's lack of success has to do with Carter?!</div>

This team's lack of success when Carter was healthy had an upper cap on the number of playoff series they could win. This group is still, at best, a second round exit, and that's with everyone playing to their peak potential. MAYBE we sneak through to the ECF, but is this team going to beat Boston, or LA, or San Antonio or Dallas, or Detroit, or Phoenix? I say the probability is low.

Add on top of that Carter's above-average propensity to get hurt. I don't think this has caused him to miss time, per say - he's played more minutes and more games than any other Net over the last 3+ years. But I do think it's become an integral part of how he plays - every drive he's making a decision about whether he's going to risk his body and health to get a score. I'm not surprised he doesn't like to drive, run the floor or play intense defense - those are all effort plays that tend to get people hurt.

Now, add on top of that that he's an inward-focused introvert on a team without a vocal leader. Considering his age, fame and experience, any large contract is going to implicitly tag him as one of the leaders of the team. Guys said it all of last year - Vince and Kidd are the leaders of the team - when neither of them has any natural talent for leading, except for the fact that Jason Kidd really, really, really wants to win.

The sum of this was a lack of a market for Vince at the price we signed him at. And now (SHOCK!) everyone's looking at his contract as a bad investment because he's suddenly (SHOCK!) hurt again. The issue isn't just that Thorn didn't realize this - it's the fact that EVERY OTHER GM IN THE LEAGUE DID! To the point where they were TELLING THE PRESS BEFORE FREE AGENCY EVEN STARTED!

The bottom line is this: if you're going to compete against yourself and sign a 31-year old player, one who isn't a leader, and who can't be coerced to play defense or run the floor, one with no other options, to an escalating contract to be part of a roster with a rapidly closing window of opportunity, you deserve to take the blame when the window shuts all of 6 months later and you suddenly can't rebuild because NO-ONE WANTS HIS CONTRACT!
</div>



wow thank you for blessing us with that intelligent post.

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Feb 10 2008, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This team's lack of success when Carter was healthy had an upper cap on the number of playoff series they could win. This group is still, at best, a second round exit, and that's with everyone playing to their peak potential. MAYBE we sneak through to the ECF, but is this team going to beat Boston, or LA, or San Antonio or Dallas, or Detroit, or Phoenix? I say the probability is low.

Add on top of that Carter's above-average propensity to get hurt. I don't think this has caused him to miss time, per say - he's played more minutes and more games than any other Net over the last 3+ years. But I do think it's become an integral part of how he plays - every drive he's making a decision about whether he's going to risk his body and health to get a score. I'm not surprised he doesn't like to drive, run the floor or play intense defense - those are all effort plays that tend to get people hurt.

Now, add on top of that that he's an inward-focused introvert on a team without a vocal leader. Considering his age, fame and experience, any large contract is going to implicitly tag him as one of the leaders of the team. Guys said it all of last year - Vince and Kidd are the leaders of the team - when neither of them has any natural talent for leading, except for the fact that Jason Kidd really, really, really wants to win.

The sum of this was a lack of a market for Vince at the price we signed him at. And now (SHOCK!) everyone's looking at his contract as a bad investment because he's suddenly (SHOCK!) hurt again. The issue isn't just that Thorn didn't realize this - it's the fact that EVERY OTHER GM IN THE LEAGUE DID! To the point where they were TELLING THE PRESS BEFORE FREE AGENCY EVEN STARTED!

The bottom line is this: if you're going to compete against yourself and sign a 31-year old player, one who isn't a leader, and who can't be coerced to play defense or run the floor, one with no other options, to an escalating contract to be part of a roster with a rapidly closing window of opportunity, you deserve to take the blame when the window shuts all of 6 months later and you suddenly can't rebuild because NO-ONE WANTS HIS CONTRACT!</div>


The reasons for a "cap" on their playoff success have more to do with factors other than Carter and how much he is making. Things like, oh, a crappy bench, frontcourt issues and injuries have something to do with it. And don't forget they have been knocked out by teams like Miami and Cleveland who went on to represent the East in the finals, with Miami winning it all a couple of years back.

You pick on and over exaggerate the importance of Carters flaws and how it translates over to the state of the team, while also ignoring the good things he has done in his time with the Nets. The bottom line is, what ever injuries Carter has had with the Nets he hasn't missed many games because of them and has still managed to be a key player for them and their ability to get into the playoffs through turmoil and injuries since he joined them. Only this season (so far) he has been slowed down some because of injuries.


Also for the umpteenth time, Carter wasnt' overpaid. He makes around the same as other similar caliber swingmen in the league. And the whole overpaid argument some of you cry about is based on that Carter had no other options which is false. HE HAD A PLAYER OPTION. If the Nets never showed interest in coming to the bargaining table last season, Carter's side would have just more pro actively started looking around the league for other suitors and if they found someone, he would have opted out and signed with another team and Nets end up losing him for nothing. But that never happened. Carters side and the Nets management were in negotiations and seemed keen on getting a reasonable deal done with each other which is what happened. Carter took a pay cut this season and the last year of his contract is a team option. He makes less than guys like McGrady, Pierce, Allen, Redd.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ Feb 10 2008, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This team's lack of success when Carter was healthy had an upper cap on the number of playoff series they could win. This group is still, at best, a second round exit, and that's with everyone playing to their peak potential. MAYBE we sneak through to the ECF, but is this team going to beat Boston, or LA, or San Antonio or Dallas, or Detroit, or Phoenix? I say the probability is low.

Add on top of that Carter's above-average propensity to get hurt. I don't think this has caused him to miss time, per say - he's played more minutes and more games than any other Net over the last 3+ years. But I do think it's become an integral part of how he plays - every drive he's making a decision about whether he's going to risk his body and health to get a score. I'm not surprised he doesn't like to drive, run the floor or play intense defense - those are all effort plays that tend to get people hurt.

Now, add on top of that that he's an inward-focused introvert on a team without a vocal leader. Considering his age, fame and experience, any large contract is going to implicitly tag him as one of the leaders of the team. Guys said it all of last year - Vince and Kidd are the leaders of the team - when neither of them has any natural talent for leading, except for the fact that Jason Kidd really, really, really wants to win.

The sum of this was a lack of a market for Vince at the price we signed him at. And now (SHOCK!) everyone's looking at his contract as a bad investment because he's suddenly (SHOCK!) hurt again. The issue isn't just that Thorn didn't realize this - it's the fact that EVERY OTHER GM IN THE LEAGUE DID! To the point where they were TELLING THE PRESS BEFORE FREE AGENCY EVEN STARTED!

The bottom line is this: if you're going to compete against yourself and sign a 31-year old player, one who isn't a leader, and who can't be coerced to play defense or run the floor, one with no other options, to an escalating contract to be part of a roster with a rapidly closing window of opportunity, you deserve to take the blame when the window shuts all of 6 months later and you suddenly can't rebuild because NO-ONE WANTS HIS CONTRACT!</div>


The reasons for a "cap" on their playoff success have more to do with factors other than Carter and how much he is making. Things like, oh, a crappy bench, frontcourt issues and injuries have something to do with it. And don't forget they have been knocked out by teams like Miami and Cleveland who went on to represent the East in the finals, with Miami winning it all a couple of years back.

You pick on and over exaggerate the importance of Carters flaws and how it translates over to the state of the team, while also ignoring the good things he has done in his time with the Nets. The bottom line is, what ever injuries Carter has had with the Nets he hasn't missed many games because of them and has still managed to be a key player for them and their ability to get into the playoffs through turmoil and injuries since he joined them. Only this season (so far) he has been slowed down some because of injuries.


Also for the umpteenth time, Carter wasnt' overpaid. He makes around the same as other similar caliber swingmen in the league. And the whole overpaid argument some of you cry about is based on that Carter had no other options which is false. HE HAD A PLAYER OPTION. If the Nets never showed interest in coming to the bargaining table last season, Carter's side would have just more pro actively started looking around the league for other suitors and if they found someone, he would have opted out and signed with another team and Nets end up losing him for nothing. But that never happened. Carters side and the Nets management were in negotiations and seemed keen on getting a reasonable deal done with each other which is what happened. Carter took a pay cut this season and the last year of his contract is a team option. He makes less than guys like McGrady, Pierce, Allen, Redd.


</div>

Another post that misses the point entirely.

Signing McGrady, Allen or Redd if they were available would be just as pointless as signing Carter.

This idiot tied up huge long-term money in an aging player when the team is on the verge of rebuilding.

So in addition to being a bad team with no discernable plan and no foundation for the future, Thorn is now actively trying to trade a player whose (already low) trade value was intentionally reduced to zero just months ago.

What kind of management is that? They can't seriously be trying to win. What a crock of shit.

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Another post that misses the point entirely.

Signing McGrady, Allen or Redd if they were available would be just as pointless as signing Carter.

This idiot tied up huge long-term money in an aging player when the team is on the verge of rebuilding.

So in addition to being a bad team with no discernable plan and no foundation for the future, Thorn is now actively trying to trade a player who's (already low) trade value was intentionally reduced to zero just months ago.

What kind of management is that? They can't seriously be trying to win. What a crock of shit.</div>


But that necessarily doesn't have to be the case. Depending on the type of deals they are getting for their players (all of them), they could decide to retool the team with Carter being part of that process - either as a trade piece or a piece of the puzzle on the court.

 

[Universe]

As in the famous words of Juno, "That ain't no etch-a-sketch. This is one doodle that can't be un-did, homeskillet."

We are stuck in between a rock. Thorn cannot blow it up due to Brooklyn and we cannot win with no bench and pissed off players.

 

[Dumpy]

I have no problem with the Carter signing, to tell you the truth. The guy just came off the two best offensive seasons in Nets history. He's hurt right now. If healthy, he might not be a bargain, but he'd be worth every penny.

I don't blame Thorn for Collins' contract, which has proven to be an albatross, either. Collins was paid the going rate for backup troll centers at the time, and I believe he was offered the deal in part to placate the fans after the rest of the team was broken up--in effect, to prove that those decisions were not financial. It was a necessary business decision.

I don't blame them for being suckered in by Boki's season last year and thinking he could do it again. That was a reasonable mistake.

I don't really blame them for drafting Wright. Everyone harps on Granger, but at the time there were an equal number of people who wanted the Nets to draft McCants, Graham, Warrick, Gerald Green, or even Simien, and the team would not have been any better with any of them. It's not like Brandon Armstrong pick, which was followed by Dalembert, Gerald Wallace, Jamaal Tinsley, Trent Hassell, and Gil Arenas. And Raul Lopez. Besides, he has gotten very good value in Boone and Sean Williams since then.

I don't blame him for drafting Marcus Williams. To do so would be completely revising history--every expert, pundit, and analyst thought it was a steal.

I DO fault Thorn for the bench, specifically, the ongoing decision to invest millions in multiple middling veterans every season without any potential to improve, instead of signing at least ONE young unsigned (and possibly undrafted free agent) to gradually develop. Not only have the vets not been any good, but there has not been ANY continuity, as the supporting staff nearly completely turns over every season. As I mentioned in another thread, I see no reason why Kevin Pittsnogle wouldn't be every bit as good as Malik Allen.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NOMAM @ Feb 10 2008, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Feb 10 2008, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Another post that misses the point entirely.

Signing McGrady, Allen or Redd if they were available would be just as pointless as signing Carter.

This idiot tied up huge long-term money in an aging player when the team is on the verge of rebuilding.

So in addition to being a bad team with no discernable plan and no foundation for the future, Thorn is now actively trying to trade a player who's (already low) trade value was intentionally reduced to zero just months ago.

What kind of management is that? They can't seriously be trying to win. What a crock of shit.</div>


But that necessarily doesn't have to be the case. Depending on the type of deals they are getting for their players (all of them), they could decide to retool the team with Carter being part of that process - either as a trade piece or a piece of the puzzle on the court.
</div>


It has to be the case. As much as people would like you to believe the Pistons are not going no where. As much as they want you to believe their reign is over they're always in Conference Finals. Boston is proving they can compete without all of their big three (something this team can't do with all of their three) and you have a team like the Magic on the rise.

Depending on what the Nets get they will not be competing anytime soon.