Exclusive War with Iran starting this week? (2 Viewers)

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[barfo]

The selective outrage is staggering. Thousands of Iranians — including children — have been killed, tortured, and executed by their own government, yet the same people who march demanding the US cut all aid, impose arms embargoes, and directly intervene to stop what they call a genocide in Gaza were completely silent about Iran / oppose involvment. No demanding the US sanction the regime into the ground. No calling on Washington to arm and actively support Iranian resistance fighters. No pushing for a US-backed no-fly zone to protect protesters being gunned down in the streets. No ICC referrals championed in Congress. These are the exact tools they scream for elsewhere — but when it comes to an actual theocratic regime systematically murdering its own people, suddenly US involvement is off the table. The hypocrisy isn't just glaring — it exposes that this was never about human lives. It's about who's doing the killing.

"by their own government". As opposed to "by your government". There's one difference. Kind of a big difference.

The US already had the Iranian regime sanctioned into the ground, no need for anyone to call for that.
Not sure there were Iranian resistance fighters to arm - protesters are not an army.
How would a no-fly zone help protesters being 'gunned down in the streets'? They weren't being gunned down from airplanes (I assume).

Iran wasn't our ally. We weren't funding Iran, or supplying them weapons. There's no reason to think that we could influence them to act better.
There was some reason to think that maybe we might have some way to influence Israel to do better. People were wrong about that, but it wasn't completely crazy to try.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Israel is getting a taste of their own medicine

And Iran are using older stockpiles of bombs to deplete Epstein’s Army surplus.

This is just the beginning - and the reason why Satanyahu fled to Germany?

He's a coward. Say what you will about Sinwar and Khamnei, but they stayed with their population and didn't flee.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Politics isn't a valid excuse ever. Israeli excessive response in Gaza is for political reasons. I am 100% opposed to that.

I didn't have a problem with a measured military response to the terrorist attacks. I have a problem with Israeli leadership allowing and even arguably encouraging the attacks to happen and the excessive and immoral response. It disgusts me that Israeli leadership would act such a way clearly for political reasons.

It saddens me that so many Israeli people are falling for it. Just as it saddens me that so many Americans are buying into the (every bit as immoral) maga cult.

20% support for Trump in this war.
80% of Israel wants more genocide and rape.

They are cooked. Brainwashed to death. Save your time. Guy goes around in circles the way Rabbi Schmuley or Alan Dershowitz do on Piers Morgan.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

A healthy country would want war with the nation who created and commissioned Jeffrey Epstein to rape underage American girls for blackmail.

But we aren't a healthy country, are we?

 

[Phatguysrule]

A healthy country would want war with the nation who created and commissioned Jeffrey Epstein to rape underage American girls for blackmail.

But we aren't a healthy country, are we?

I'm not sure about war... We should definitely want changes and to harden ourselves from that kind of influence.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I'm not sure about war... We should definitely want changes and to harden ourselves from that kind of influence.

Maybe we're different but I'd want to go to war with the country who is responsible for getting my underage citizens raped and eaten by a monster through their network. Not sure what else would satisfy the conditions to go to war.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

He's a coward. Say what you will about Sinwar and Khamnei, but they stayed with their population and didn't flee.

"Say what you will about Sinwar"? I'll say quite a bit, actually — and the fact that you frame him as a figure worthy of even grudging respect tells us everything about where your moral compass is pointing.

Sinwar didn't "stay with his population." He hid in tunnels beneath hospitals and civilian buildings while using those civilians as a deliberate shield — a documented war crime. He was hiding in a tunnel network stocked with food and supplies. He orchestrated the murder, rape, and mutilation of over 1,200 people on October 7 — including burning families alive in their homes, systematically raping women (some post-mortem), beheading infants, and taking 250+ hostages including elderly Holocaust survivors and toddlers. His own released hostages described deliberate psychological torture. He spent years personally supervising the execution of fellow Palestinians he suspected of collaboration.

The idea that "staying" makes him courageous is both false and exactly the framing Hamas wants you to have. He used his own people as a human shield strategy and called civilian casualties "necessary sacrifices."

Here's what's worth reflecting on: you called Israelis "brainwashed to death" in your next post. Yet you're romanticizing a man who literally wrote that civilian deaths serve his strategic goals. That's not critical thinking — that's the definition of successfully absorbed propaganda. The brainwashing you're diagnosing in others seems worth examining a bit closer to home.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Maybe we're different but I'd want to go to war with the country who is responsible for getting my underage citizens raped and eaten by a monster through their network. Not sure what else would satisfy the conditions to go to war.

I don't see how killing a bunch of civilians makes any of this better.

I'd prefer diplomatic pressure and getting our own house in order.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

"by their own government". As opposed to "by your government". There's one difference. Kind of a big difference.

The US already had the Iranian regime sanctioned into the ground, no need for anyone to call for that.
Not sure there were Iranian resistance fighters to arm - protesters are not an army.
How would a no-fly zone help protesters being 'gunned down in the streets'? They weren't being gunned down from airplanes (I assume).

Iran wasn't our ally. We weren't funding Iran, or supplying them weapons. There's no reason to think that we could influence them to act better.
There was some reason to think that maybe we might have some way to influence Israel to do better. People were wrong about that, but it wasn't completely crazy to try.

barfo

barfo — these are fair points and I want to engage them properly.

On 'by their own government vs. by your government' — I actually think that distinction proves my point rather than refutes it. The Iranian regime had been under sanctions and strangling its own people for decades. Sanctions were maxed out. The regime kept killing. At what point does 'it's their own government doing it' become an argument for action rather than an excuse for inaction?

Why did America enter WW2? Nazi Germany hadn't and couldn't kill a single American on American soil. It was a foreign conflict on the other side of the globe. The moral and pragmatic case for intervention was eventually recognized as overwhelming. The 'it's not our government, not our problem' logic would have kept America out of Europe entirely. I don't think anyone today argues that would have been the right call.

The same framework applies here. The IRGC was slaughtering Iranian civilians — 32,000 in three months — with no external actor willing to stop it. Sanctions had been tried for years. Diplomacy had been tried. The nuclear deal was tried and dismantled. At some point, 'not our government' stops being a reason and starts being a rationalization for looking away.

On arming resistance fighters and no-fly zones — fair, I overstated those analogies and I'll concede them.

 

[crandc]

For the record, the US entered World War II over control of the Pacific. Dispute with Japan and Japan forced the issue when they attacked Pearl Harbor. US declared war on Japan. Because Germany and Italy had formed alliance with Japan, they then declared war on US who consequently declared war on Germany and Italy. US forces focused on Pacific, not Europe, until D Day.
Their aim was military defeat, not regime change. Regimes collapsed when those countries were militarily defeated. Obviously the collapse of fascist regimes was a good thing but US didn't begin by saying we want to select someone to run your country.
Also point out regime change required years of postwar military occupation, international cooperation and huge amounts of money spent on reconstruction. Do you see those happening, except maybe the first?

 

[2Fluffy4U]

For the record, the US entered World War II over control of the Pacific. Dispute with Japan and Japan forced the issue when they attacked Pearl Harbor. US declared war on Japan. Because Germany and Italy had formed alliance with Japan, they then declared war on US who consequently declared war on Germany and Italy. US forces focused on Pacific, not Europe, until D Day.
Their aim was military defeat, not regime change. Regimes collapsed when those countries were militarily defeated. Obviously the collapse of fascist regimes was a good thing but US didn't begin by saying we want to select someone to run your country.
Also point out regime change required years of postwar military occupation, international cooperation and huge amounts of money spent on reconstruction. Do you see those happening, except maybe the first?

One might argue the goal now is IRGC defeat. (as it is also the ruling regime it probably will require some sort of regime change, however now one can really tell how things will evolve).

 

[crandc]

Roosevelt, as per Constitution, asked Congress for declaration of war. Read what he said and did not say.

Joint Address to Congress Leading to a Declaration of War Against Japan (1941)

EnlargeDownload Link Citation: "Day of Infamy" Speech by Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941; SEN 77A-H1, Records of the United States Senate; Record Group 46; National Archives. View All Pages in the National Archives Catalog View Transcript On December 8, 1941, the day after the Japanese...

www.archives.gov

 

[crandc]

Oh this is going to go over great in Middle East. Military commanders are telling troops war is part of God's plan, Trump was selected by Jesus to bring about Armageddon and Christ's return to earth.
Hegseth, aside from being a drink, a woman abuser, and totally unqualified, has Crusader tattoos and has told troops they are warriors for Christ.
I mean if you want to win hearts and minds in a country 99% Muslim...

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Oh this is going to go over great in Middle East. Military commanders are telling troops war is part of God's plan, Trump was selected by Jesus to bring about Armageddon and Christ's return to earth.
Hegseth, aside from being a drink, a woman abuser, and totally unqualified, has Crusader tattoos and has told troops they are warriors for Christ.
I mean if you want to win hearts and minds in a country 99% Muslim...

Hey.. you can't call dibs on lunatics. I have Bibi all over me since 1995. Trust me I rather he was gone in 1993. The question is how come these kind of people get to stay at the helm for so long (Bibi, Putin, Erdogan, Khamenei etc)
My answer to that? They ruled the classic 'divide and conquer' MO and mastered it to perfection.
This is exactly what is going here in this forum - extreame ideations turn into concensus.. leading to further tear among people. Normal.people
People that just want their daily dose of peace and quiet, and something to cheer for (NBA anyone?)

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[SlyPokerDog]