Was Jesus a real person?

[PapaG]

nice of you tell atheists what they think.

If they're truly and atheist, they believe in atheism. My opinion of it isn't a factor at all.

the semantics you want to use doesn't change what people think.

It's not semantics. It's words, and their definitions, and how they apply to this conversation.

as i said the vast majority of people who call themselves atheists believe some type of god is at least a remote possiblity

Then they aren't true (or literal) atheists.

and you will have a tough time finding someone who thinks god is factually impossible.

Atheism isn't based on fact, other than the absence of fact. It is based on a belief. I encourage you to study up a bit on atheism and its roots, and not what people who call themselves atheists believe.

 

[KingSpeed]

It's called the Bible. Does he need more? Why do you think they call it faith?

Yes, I need a LOT more. MEN, not God, wrote the Bible. Who decided which writings got to be in the Bible and which writings didn't? How do we know those guys were on the up and up? How come women didn't write any of it? As I said in the other thread, at least with the Latter Day Saints, the Golden Plates were placed by an angel. No angel brought the Bible to us.

 

[ABM]

Yes, I need a LOT more. MEN, not God, wrote the Bible. Who decided which writings got to be in the Bible and which writings didn't? How do we know those guys were on the up and up? How come women didn't write any of it? As I said in the other thread, at least with the Latter Day Saints, the Golden Plates were placed by an angel. No angel brought the Bible to us.

Glad you're asking the questions. It's a good sign.

 

[crowTrobot]

Atheism isn't based on fact, other than the absence of fact. It is based on a belief. I encourage you to study up a bit on atheism and its roots, and not what people who call themselves atheists believe.

not a big deal to me, but why are you so quick to assume you're right about this? because your arguments don't work if atheists don't think like you expect them to?

anyway i predict every person in this forum who calls themselves an atheist that you ask will treat god in the generic sense as simply unproven, or at best improbable based on evidence, rather than actually impossible. even richard dawkins, sam harris, etc think god is a possibility, albeit remote.

 

[PapaG]

not a big deal to me, but why are you so quick to assume you're right about this? because your arguments don't work if atheists don't think like you expect them to?

anyway i predict every person in this forum who calls themselves an atheist that you ask will treat god in the generic sense as simply unproven, or at best improbable based on evidence, rather than actually impossible. even richard dawkins, sam harris, etc think god is a possibility, albeit remote.

Because there are literal definitions for atheism and its beliefs. If somebody wants to call himself an atheist, but doesn't follow that belief, then it isn't 'atheism's' fault, is it?

 

[ABM]

Because there are literal definitions for atheism and its beliefs. If somebody wants to call himself an atheist, but doesn't follow that belief, then it isn't 'atheism's' fault, is it?

I've understood that a lack of belief is indifference...and that true atheists certainly aren't indifferent on the matter.

 

[crowTrobot]

Because there are literal definitions for atheism and its beliefs. If somebody wants to call himself an atheist, but doesn't follow that belief, then it isn't 'atheism's' fault, is it?

ok, but you're just arguing semantics which doesn't really matter. it doesn't change the fact that by your definitions almost everyone who doesn't believe in god is an agnostic and real atheists are extremely rare.

 

[crowTrobot]

I've understood that a lack of belief is indifference...

lack of belief is generally based on view of probability, not indifference.

you don't/can't know it's an absolute truth that there aren't purple unicorns on pluto, but presumably you don't lack belief in them due to simple indifference. you (i would hope) lack belief because you don't think it's likely they exist.

 

[ABM]

lack of belief is generally based on view of probability, not indifference.

you don't/can't know it's an absolute truth that there aren't purple unicorns on pluto, but presumably you don't lack belief in them due to simple indifference. you (i would hope) lack belief because you don't think it's likely they exist.

Well, some people have called me ignorant, while still others have called me apathetic. I'm not certain about either. But, then again, I don't really care.

 

[TripTango]

you don't/can't know it's an absolute truth that there aren't purple unicorns on pluto, but presumably you don't lack belief in them due to simple indifference. you (i would hope) lack belief because you don't think it's likely they exist.

Ah, so you're an Anti-purple-plunicornist, are you? Dirty heathen!

 

[JETBlack]

You have the testimony of the Bible and Book of Mormon and there are more records yet to come. You also have the testimony of millions around the world. I can't speak for all faiths but in my faith (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) we make gaining a personal testimony a priority. If you believe in Christ then you believe in the Holy Ghost and his ability to provide a witness as he did for the Apostles after Christ departed. The 12 Apostles are special witnesses of Christ, just like they were during his ministry.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think he existed. I don't believe he was just concocted out of thin air, however I believe the man has been embellished over the last couple thousand years. Here's my thinking:

I believe in a god, but I don't believe in the Christian version perse

There have been countless examples in history of people in power using religion to control the masses (Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc). Why is Christianity any different?

I believe Jesus existed, but I think he was a mere holy man that taught love and peace and all that shit. I think over time his legend was made into more than it was and eventually the Romans took hold of it. They knew how to take a religion into the big time and the rest is history.

I just want to know how devout Christians can hold a book in such reverence that was written by the hand of man, and not only that but it has been in the hands of corrupt and evil men for thousands of years. Why would you trust a book that was in the hands of the Catholic church? The same church that has killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in the name of God? You don't think those people would use the power of Religion for evil? And why wouldn't they tamper with the book?

I believe in god, but I don't need a building or a holy man to serve as a conduit, and I certainly don't need Jesus as a go-between. Why do Christians worship Jesus and not God directly? Why do Catholics essentially worship Mary? Why not the man directly? I get it, Jesus is God so it's the same thing, but it's not. Isn't it somewhere in the Bible that you aren't supposed to worship anyone but the man himself? I used to go to church but I saw so much hypocrisy that I stopped going and basically just have my own spiritual relationship with whatever is out there.

 

[The Professional Fan]

I think he existed. I don't believe he was just concocted out of thin air, however I believe the man has been embellished over the last couple thousand years. Here's my thinking:

I believe in a god, but I don't believe in the Christian version perse

There have been countless examples in history of people in power using religion to control the masses (Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc). Why is Christianity any different?

I believe Jesus existed, but I think he was a mere holy man that taught love and peace and all that shit. I think over time his legend was made into more than it was and eventually the Romans took hold of it. They knew how to take a religion into the big time and the rest is history.

I just want to know how devout Christians can hold a book in such reverence that was written by the hand of man, and not only that but it has been in the hands of corrupt and evil men for thousands of years. Why would you trust a book that was in the hands of the Catholic church? The same church that has killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in the name of God? You don't think those people would use the power of Religion for evil? And why wouldn't they tamper with the book?

I believe in god, but I don't need a building or a holy man to serve as a conduit, and I certainly don't need Jesus as a go-between. Why do Christians worship Jesus and not God directly? Why do Catholics essentially worship Mary? Why not the man directly? I get it, Jesus is God so it's the same thing, but it's not. Isn't it somewhere in the Bible that you aren't supposed to worship anyone but the man himself? I used to go to church but I saw so much hypocrisy that I stopped going and basically just have my own spiritual relationship with whatever is out there.

Perfect. Thanks for posting for me. Saved me a lot of time.

 

[KingSpeed]

Glad you're asking the questions. It's a good sign.

And apparently you don't havE answers

 

[PapaG]

And apparently you don't havE answers

He has the answers, at least for him. Lots of judging going on by religion-bashers, which is a bit ironic.

 

[santeesioux]

PapaG will LOVE this atheist. nsfw.

[video=youtube;y-RJeqyh-vI]

 

[PapaG]

PapaG will LOVE this atheist. nsfw.

[video=youtube;y-RJeqyh-vI]

I thought it was funny. I don't care what people believe in, one way or another. I did like him judging others for his beliefs, as it validates my own thoughts about the religion of atheism, and how it's judgemental in its own right.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

I figure as long as you're not actively preaching, teaching, or calling for the oppression of other people who are partaking in consensual activities, you gotta believe what you believe in.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

http://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christian-Myths-Jesus-Existed/dp/0557709911

PapaG still doesn't know what an atheist is even though he is one. Atheist means godless or without god and atheism means not believing in any deity. It's pretty simple. Atheism doesn't get capitalized in the middle of a sentence like Christianity because it is not a religion. There are no rules other than the literal definition of the word. There aren't churches, or prophets or anything of the sort. It is a normal word that means one thing: "not believing in god"

 

[BrianFromWA]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27atheists.html?pagewanted=all

At the same time, an atheist group at Fort Bragg called Military Atheists and Secular Humanists, or MASH, has asked the Army to appoint an atheist lay leader at the base. A new MASH chapter at Fort Campbell, Ky., is planning to do the same as are atheists at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida...
“Humanism fills the same role for atheists that Christianity does for Christians and Judaism does for Jews,” Mr. Torpy said in an interview. “It answers questions of ultimate concern; it directs our values.”
A high school dropout raised near Dallas, Sergeant Griffith, 28, was a passionate Christian and creationist until his teens. Now his dog tags list his religious preference as atheist, and he is pushing to create MASH chapters on as many bases as possible.

He is also giving thought to becoming a chaplain himself, though it would take years: He would have to earn a graduate degree in theology and then be commissioned an officer. He would also need the endorsement of “a qualified religious organization,” a role Mr. Torpy’s organization is seeking to play.

 

[huevonkiller]

I think he existed. I don't believe he was just concocted out of thin air, however I believe the man has been embellished over the last couple thousand years. Here's my thinking:

I believe in a god, but I don't believe in the Christian version perse

There have been countless examples in history of people in power using religion to control the masses (Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc). Why is Christianity any different?

I believe Jesus existed, but I think he was a mere holy man that taught love and peace and all that shit. I think over time his legend was made into more than it was and eventually the Romans took hold of it. They knew how to take a religion into the big time and the rest is history.

I just want to know how devout Christians can hold a book in such reverence that was written by the hand of man, and not only that but it has been in the hands of corrupt and evil men for thousands of years. Why would you trust a book that was in the hands of the Catholic church? The same church that has killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in the name of God? You don't think those people would use the power of Religion for evil? And why wouldn't they tamper with the book?

I believe in god, but I don't need a building or a holy man to serve as a conduit, and I certainly don't need Jesus as a go-between. Why do Christians worship Jesus and not God directly? Why do Catholics essentially worship Mary? Why not the man directly? I get it, Jesus is God so it's the same thing, but it's not. Isn't it somewhere in the Bible that you aren't supposed to worship anyone but the man himself? I used to go to church but I saw so much hypocrisy that I stopped going and basically just have my own spiritual relationship with whatever is out there.

Yes this is what I believe in, essentially.

The Bible is totally unreliable.

 

[Blazerfan22]

Yes this is what I believe in, essentially.

The Bible is totally unreliable.

why is it unreliable? Science has found many things the Bibles refer to.

Just one example is Sodom and Gomorrah, One story that is hard for many to believe yet Science is finding many facts to the story.

1. The Bible refers to a metropolis of five cities in the Dead Sea area.
Five, and only five cities, have been found in the Dead Sea area.

2. The Bible refers to a conquest by the Mesopotamians.
The artifacts found in the Dead Sea area show a Mesopotamian influence.

3. The Midrash describes the metropolis as a thriving population.
The enormous number of burials in the large cemeteries attests to a great population.

4. The Talmud and the Midrash describe the area as an agricultural
wonderland. The great diversity of agricultural products found in the ruins verify the lush produce enjoyed by the area's inhabitants.

5. According to the Talmud, there was a span of only 26 years between a war in the area and the ultimate destruction.
Devastation levels found in Numeira (Sodom) are consistent with the Talmud's assertion.

6. The Talmud states that Sodom, unlike other cities in the area, only existed for 52 years.
The ruins in Numeira (Sodom) indicate that the city lasted less than 100 years.

7. The Bible attributes the destruction of the cities to a fiery storm that rained down from above.
Thick layers of burnt material covering the remains of the cities in the area, bear this out.

-http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html

More Info link

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343674,00.html

Could keep it coming with many other stories of bible, but this is hardest story for people to believe.

One thing that bothers me about what Christianity has became is it wasn't supposed to be a religion, God is not religion. It was what someone was called because they were Christ Like, there actions made them Christian not self proclaiming it.
Now people seem to just run around claiming they know God yet know nothing of the Bible or have a personal relationship with him.

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.-Deuteronomy 4:29

 

[huevonkiller]

why is it unreliable? Science has found many things the Bibles refer to.

Just one example is Sodom and Gomorrah, One story that is hard for many to believe yet Science is finding many facts to the story.

1. The Bible refers to a metropolis of five cities in the Dead Sea area.
Five, and only five cities, have been found in the Dead Sea area.

2. The Bible refers to a conquest by the Mesopotamians.
The artifacts found in the Dead Sea area show a Mesopotamian influence.

3. The Midrash describes the metropolis as a thriving population.
The enormous number of burials in the large cemeteries attests to a great population.

4. The Talmud and the Midrash describe the area as an agricultural
wonderland. The great diversity of agricultural products found in the ruins verify the lush produce enjoyed by the area's inhabitants.

5. According to the Talmud, there was a span of only 26 years between a war in the area and the ultimate destruction.
Devastation levels found in Numeira (Sodom) are consistent with the Talmud's assertion.

6. The Talmud states that Sodom, unlike other cities in the area, only existed for 52 years.
The ruins in Numeira (Sodom) indicate that the city lasted less than 100 years.

7. The Bible attributes the destruction of the cities to a fiery storm that rained down from above.
Thick layers of burnt material covering the remains of the cities in the area, bear this out.

-http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html

More Info link

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343674,00.html

Could keep it coming with many other stories of bible, but this is hardest story for people to believe.

One thing that bothers me about what Christianity has became is it wasn't supposed to be a religion, God is not religion. It was what someone was called because they were Christ Like, there actions made them Christian not self proclaiming it.
Now people seem to just run around claiming they know God yet know nothing of the Bible or have a personal relationship with him.

No; the horrible advice and unproven mythology is what I am referring to.

 

[TripTango]

Many of the people, places, and events mentioned in the National Enquirer have been shown conclusively to exist. Does this mean it's safe for me to assume that Elvis is alive and batboy is hunting my pets?

 

[Blazerfan22]

No; the horrible advice and unproven mythology is what I am referring to.

Horrible advice? Really the bible gives great advice if you were to truly read it.

Top 2 pieces of advice Bible gives us amongst thousands:

Forgiveness -When you forgive you release yourself from the pain, instead of caring bitterness, hurt and eventually you hurting someone else. -"Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you"

Debt - Do not be in debt to man, How much stress in our daily lives does this one cause? - "Owe nothing to anyone--except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God's law." Romans 13:8

Many other advice issues - http://www.bible-verses-by-topic.info/ or http://www.bibletopics.com/

Hope im not misunderstanding you, But even if you don't believe in God, the Bible is full of great information, and advice.

 

[Blazerfan22]

Many of the people, places, and events mentioned in the National Enquirer have been shown conclusively to exist. Does this mean it's safe for me to assume that Elvis is alive and batboy is hunting my pets?

Actually enquirer has no proof of any of these findings they just put in paper whatever they feel like, Science has proven the locations in Bible, which many said didn't exist. They also have shown that story's match to what happened in locations mentioned in bible. With sodom and gommorrah they have found a 20,000 Plus body pile up, like they were trying to leave the city as fast as possible but couldnt do it.

 

[huevonkiller]

Horrible advice? Really the bible gives great advice if you were to truly read it.

Top 2 pieces of advice Bible gives us amongst thousands:

Forgiveness -When you forgive you release yourself from the pain, instead of caring bitterness, hurt and eventually you hurting someone else. -"Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you"

Debt - Do not be in debt to man, How much stress in our daily lives does this one cause? - "Owe nothing to anyone--except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God's law." Romans 13:8

Many other advice issues - http://www.bible-verses-by-topic.info/ or http://www.bibletopics.com/

Hope im not misunderstanding you, But even if you don't believe in God, the Bible is full of great information, and advice.

Really, I heard it says a little more than that? Pretty dubious stuff in fact.

Also I lean towards thinking God is real, but organized religion is dangerous. The only responsible answer is to say "agnostic".

 

[TripTango]

Actually enquirer has no proof of any of these findings they just put in paper whatever they feel like, Science has proven the locations in Bible, which many said didn't exist. They also have shown that story's match to what happened in locations mentioned in bible. With sodom and gommorrah they have found a 20,000 Plus body pile up, like they were trying to leave the city as fast as possible but couldnt do it.

I don't think you're catching my point.

The current Enquirer mentions a person called Tim Tebow, who has been CONFIRMED to exist. Like, photographic proof. They even say he has a long form birth certificate! Does this evidence imply that EVERYTHING in the Enquirer is true? Obviously not.

Likewise, the Bible includes many descriptions of real people and places, as well as events that are very likely to have happened in some form or another. It is, from a non-believer's perspective, an important record of oral history and cultural tradition. However, the fact that some things in the Bible have historical support in no way implies that everything else is somehow verified.

If I write a story about the destruction of Pompeii in which I describe Mt. Vesuvius as an alien weapon of mass destruction, would you take it as fact? After all, we have evidence that thousands and thousands were killed there -- is this sufficient proof for alien warfare?

 

[SantaDora]

Actually enquirer has no proof of any of these findings they just put in paper whatever they feel like, Science has proven the locations in Bible, which many said didn't exist. They also have shown that story's match to what happened in locations mentioned in bible. With sodom and gommorrah they have found a 20,000 Plus body pile up, like they were trying to leave the city as fast as possible but couldnt do it.

I think the point he is trying to make is that to make what you sell more believable - you set it in an article based on some factual items. The analogy stands - just because the stories (written by real people) are set in a setting based on real life - does not make them any less fictional.

 

[SantaDora]

If I write a story about the destruction of Pompeii in which I describe Mt. Vesuvius as an alien weapon of mass destruction, would you take it as fact? After all, we have evidence that thousands and thousands were killed there -- is this sufficient proof for alien warfare?

Yes. I saw it on TV in a Doctor Who episode.