Notice We got to stop this shit....

[Hoopguru]

Oregon state police seize 100,000 fentanyl pills, 33 pounds powdered fentanyl in 2 freeway stopsKeyKey that denotes Subscriber Exclusive content.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Oregon state police seize 100,000 fentanyl pills, 33 pounds powdered fentanyl in 2 freeway stopsKeyKey that denotes Subscriber Exclusive content.

It's all the same solution. Improve access to education, healthcare, and improve the social safety net.

Happy, healthy people are far less likely to turn to drugs.

 

[Hoopguru]

It's all the same solution. Improve access to education, healthcare, and improve the social safety net.

Happy, healthy people are far less likely to turn to drugs.

Anyone caught dealing that shit should do big time imo. Zero tolerance.
At the same to time fix how we deal with addiction and mentally ill.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Anyone caught dealing that shit should do big time imo. Zero tolerance.
At the same to time fix how we deal with addiction and mentally ill.

Oh absolutely. Anybody dealing anything with fentanyl should get locked up long term. Problem is there will always be somebody willing to take the risk if we don't limit the number of desperate people in our country.

There isn't enough prison space to make a dent.

 

[barfo]

Isn't that story about stopping it?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Isn't that story about stopping it?

barfo

Isn't that what he meant? Stop stopping it, right?

 

[barfo]

Isn't that what he meant? Stop stopping it, right?

Ah, I misunderstood.

barfo

 

[yankeesince59]

I'm all in favor of abolishing some of the cushy prisons/pens and in their place, bringing back the "chain gangs". No more sitting around all day watching cable TV, not having to work. ..."you just keep shakin' that bush, Luke...just keep shakin' that bush."


And before I'm lambasted about felons' "rights", once a person has consistently proven the cannot abide by our laws, I no longer give 2 shits about their "rights".

 

[crandc]

Visit an actual prison and see how cushy they are.

Lock them up and throw away the key has never solved social problems. It just puts people, mostly poor and mostly Black and Latinx, behind bars. The ones really making the money skate. Change the social conditions.

My late father tried to counsel a young man in his class. The student told him, quite respectfully, he could make more in a week dealing than a teacher made in a month.

 

[STOMP]

Oregon state police seize 100,000 fentanyl pills, 33 pounds powdered fentanyl in 2 freeway stopsKeyKey that denotes Subscriber Exclusive content.

Sounds like the State Police just had some random good luck in making those busts.

STOMP

 

[yankeesince59]

Visit an actual prison and see how cushy they are.

Lock them up and throw away the key has never solved social problems. It just puts people, mostly poor and mostly Black and Latinx, behind bars. The ones really making the money skate. Change the social conditions.

My late father tried to counsel a young man in his class. The student told him, quite respectfully, he could make more in a week dealing than a teacher made in a month.

I have in fact visited prisons in my area which you would have no idea about so don't presume to tell me what I do and do not know about.

Prisons are full of people who were convicted of crimes, period. Are mistakes made sometimes?...of course. Is our system perfect?...of course not. But it beats anarchy.
Bring back the chains gangs and we'd likely have much less felons going back to prison multiple times.



We cannot simply legislate social conditions....IMO, it's our overall culture in this country that is to blame, and it does need to change, but again, it's not something that can be legislated. It has taken us many years to get to the despicable place we're in now as a country, so it stands to reason it will take just as long to get to where we should be.

 

[crandc]

Why stop with chain gangs? Theft used to be a capital crime. How about burning at the stake? Draw and quarter? Boil in oil? They are criminals.* Who cares?

* Term does not apply to wealthy and powerful who break laws.

 

[yankeesince59]

Never said any of that, but one broad generalization deserves another, I suppose. ...Yeah, let's just let all criminals go free.

 

[Chris Craig]

Sounds like the State Police just had some random good luck in making those busts.

STOMP

Well glad they got lucky. We don't that shit out there.

 

[Voodoo]

I have in fact visited prisons in my area which you would have no idea about so don't presume to tell me what I do and do not know about.

Prisons are full of people who were convicted of crimes, period. Are mistakes made sometimes?...of course. Is our system perfect?...of course not. But it beats anarchy.
Bring back the chains gangs and we'd likely have much less felons going back to prison multiple times.



We cannot simply legislate social conditions....IMO, it's our overall culture in this country that is to blame, and it does need to change, but again, it's not something that can be legislated. It has taken us many years to get to the despicable place we're in now as a country, so it stands to reason it will take just as long to get to where we should be.

What exactly are you referring to that is cultural that is leading folks to be criminals? I’m curious to hear your thoughts because most of the research I have read have evidence that supports the notion that it’s because folks are desperate.

You may not be able to legislate programs to fix cultural issues, but you can certainly pass legislation that improves people’s quality of life. Improve schools, improve health care, and make housing affordable. Do those things alone and most criminal behavior would decrease substantially.

 

[yankeesince59]

What exactly are you referring to that is cultural that is leading folks to be criminals? I’m curious to hear your thoughts because most of the research I have read have evidence that supports the notion that it’s because folks are desperate.

You may not be able to legislate programs to fix cultural issues, but you can certainly pass legislation that improves people’s quality of life. Improve schools, improve health care, and make housing affordable. Do those things alone and most criminal behavior would decrease substantially.

I don't always articulate my views/opinions on things as well as I could., so my meaning may get miscinstrued...if that's the case, that's on me.

Yes, we can first legislate measure to hopefully and gradually change things, but the point I was trying to make was that we cannot quickly change the way some people currently think. Like I said, it's taken us many years to get to the point of where we are currently at...and IMO, it will also take many years to get to where we should be.

There's a lot of venom/hate in this country and the world for that matter, and legislation won't be a quick fix, certainly not in my lifetime.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I have in fact visited prisons in my area which you would have no idea about so don't presume to tell me what I do and do not know about.

Prisons are full of people who were convicted of crimes, period. Are mistakes made sometimes?...of course. Is our system perfect?...of course not. But it beats anarchy.
Bring back the chains gangs and we'd likely have much less felons going back to prison multiple times.



We cannot simply legislate social conditions....IMO, it's our overall culture in this country that is to blame, and it does need to change, but again, it's not something that can be legislated. It has taken us many years to get to the despicable place we're in now as a country, so it stands to reason it will take just as long to get to where we should be.

Nobody is suggesting anarchy. We have seen what changes in policing and sentencing have worked well in this country, (shockingly similar to policies that work in other countries) and that's how you start to change the culture.

https://www.audacy.com/kywnewsradio/news/local/new-camden-county-police-sworn-in-streets

https://www.politico.com/news/magaz... movement grows in,and change how it operated.

 

[Phatguysrule]

...Yeah, let's just let all criminals go free.

Adding to the list of Things Nobody Serious Has Ever Said...

 

[yankeesince59]

Adding to the list of Things Nobody Serious Has Ever Said...

Neither did I say "How about burning at the stake? Draw and quarter? Boil in oil? "... which was what I was responding to and why I said it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Neither did I say "How about burning at the stake? Draw and quarter? Boil in oil? "... which was what I was responding to and why I said it.

I get that, but chain gangs is a big step in the direction of dehumanizing people. Which encourages people to accepting further means of torture.

Nobody is suggesting any step in the direction of letting all prisoners go. Only reducing proven ineffective and harmful practices.

 

[yankeesince59]

I get that, but chain gangs is a big step in the direction of dehumanizing people. Which encourages people to accepting further means of torture.

Nobody is suggesting any step in the direction of letting all prisoners go. Only reducing proven ineffective and harmful practices.

Again, like I originally said, once a felon has multiple times, proven he will not adhere to our laws, I no longer care about his rights. And coddling ain't gonna change repeat offenders.

I may be liberal about many things, but this ain't one of them.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Again, like I originally said, once a felon has multiple times, proven he will not adhere to our laws, I no longer care about his rights. And coddling ain't gonna change repeat offenders.

I may be liberal about many things, but this ain't one of them.

When preventing slave labor is considered "coddling" then we haven't done enough to address our violence problem.

 

[yankeesince59]

When preventing slave labor is considered "coddling" then we haven't done enough to address our violence problem.

"Slave labor"?...Please, a bit over-dramatic, no?

But I'm willing to hear tangible/viable solutions, if you have them.

 

[Phatguysrule]

"Slave labor"?...Please, a bit over-dramatic, no?

But I'm willing to hear tangible/viable solutions, if you have them.

Cop "finds" a lb of fentanyl in the trunk of your car. You are now a felon. You are now forced to work for free on the chain gang. You are a slave, and the incentives for the judicial system are aligned to make this more likely rather than less likely. This is not a good system designed to reduce crime.

I posted a link to the solution Camden New Jersey found which is somewhat modeled after German/Nordic/Scandinavian systems, and works well in those countries. It has worked very well in Camden.

That is the direction our nation needs to go with regards to policing/judicial system, IMO.

 

[yankeesince59]

Cop "finds" a lb of fentanyl in the trunk of your car. You are now a felon. You are now forced to work for free on the chain gang. You are a slave, and the incentives for the judicial system are aligned to make this more likely rather than less likely. This is not a good system designed to reduce crime.

I was hoping you'd outline your own solution,I posted a link to the solution Camden New Jersey found which is somewhat modeled after German/Nordic/Scandinavian systems, and works well in those countries. It has worked very well in Camden.

That is the direction our nation needs to go with regards to policing/judicial system, IMO.

I was hoping you'd outline a solution you had of your own, but I'd like to see the success cracktown NJ has experienced with this solution.

Prisoners working for free is not slavery. "Indentured servants" maybe, because unlike slavery, they at least gain their freedom once they've honored their sentence/contract.

No, "working for free" should be considered restitution for the crime they committed, court costs, free lawyer fees, and the cost to Kohn Q. Taxpayer for footing the bill for supporting them in prison for whatever term they are sentence to.

If there's little deterrent to crime in our penal system there's no reason for perps to stop committing crimes. And Germany's/Nordic/Scandinavian countries' culture is much diferent as a whole than the US.


Do you seriously believe that felons and/or career criminals should be allowed to just sit on their ass in prison while eating for free and get free TV, etc., while people who actually work for a living like myself, are forced to foot the bill?



Sorry, I'm not going for that either.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I was hoping you'd outline a solution you had of your own, but I'd like to see the success cracktown NJ has experienced with this solution.

Here are a couple of links which explain it much better than I could.
https://www.audacy.com/kywnewsradio/news/local/new-camden-county-police-sworn-in-streets

https://www.politico.com/news/magaz... movement grows in,and change how it operated.

Prisoners working for free is not slavery. "Indentured servants" maybe, because unlike slavery, they at least gain their freedom once they've honored their sentence/contract.

No, "working for free" should be considered restitution for the crime they committed, court costs, free lawyer fees, and the cost to Kohn Q. Taxpayer for footing the bill for supporting them in prison for whatever term they are sentence to.

No, I very much disagree, and pretty much all available evidence backs this up. Society should not benefit from the labor of prisoners. That creates incentive for the state to have more prisoners. That's the exact opposite of what we should do. The best way for them to pay us back should be by improving themselves to become less burdens on society, and ideally positive contributors to the economy as free citizens. That should be the goal, and all incentives should be aligned for them to achieve it.

Now, they can have jobs they are encouraged to do which enrich their own lives and the lives of those within the prison. I'm completely fine with that.

If there's little deterrent to crime in our penal system there's no reason for perps to stop committing crimes. And Germany's/Nordic/Scandinavian countries' culture is much diferent as a whole than the US.


Do you seriously believe that felons and/or career criminals should be allowed to just sit on their ass in prison while eating for free and get free TV, etc., while people who actually work for a living like myself, are forced to foot the bill?



Sorry, I'm not going for that either.

Here is an article you can listen to:
Looking to Norway for changes to U.S. prison system


Here is another article you can listen to about how well it can be applied here in the US.
Norway helped remake a US prison. Here’s what happened.

Here are some good videos:
USA vs. Germany: Prisons | A SHOCKING Look Behind Bars

The difference between American and German prison systems

How Norway's Prisons Are Different From America's | NowThis

 

[yankeesince59]

There's no way we're gonna reach agreement on this.

 

[Phatguysrule]

There's no way we're gonna reach agreement on this.

Not if you think our current policy (revenge) is a solution or too soft. Punishment or restitution are proven to be ineffective and harmful policy and I don't support ineffective or harmful policies.

 

[yankeesince59]

Not if you think our current policy (revenge) is a solution or too soft. Punishment or restitution are proven to be ineffective and harmful policy and I don't support ineffective or harmful policies.

"Revenge"?, again, please stop with the over-dramatic terminology.

Fine, you support your policy, I'll support mine.

I read most of your links and there's no comparison between American crime and Scandinavian crime...and sorry but there's a big difference in implementing practices from that part of the world and documenting actual success in the US.


Again, show me real concrete success in America and maybe I'll buy into it, but till then, no.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Fine, you support your policy, I'll support mine.

It's a free country and largely follows your policy. With the largest prison population in the world. 5% of the world population and 25% of the world prison population. But yeah, you do you.