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So they deal with 'dangerous people" by not really dealing with them. And for the umpteenth time, comparing US crime vs most European crime is apples and oranges...even your link/s say this and though murders may be down in Camden, other crimes there are on the rise.

The problem is not so much the prison system as it the staggering amount of crime and the staggering amount of criminals who don't care if they go back to prison time and time again.

And gathering hardened criminals in a room and having them join in a group chorus of "Kum bay ah" is not going to change things. I have giving up on you providing concrete proof on your "models" being successful with these type people...do you have it or not? Also have yet to hear what "words I put in your mouth",

Instead of just saying things, back them up. If you can't/won't do this, I think we sould simply let this go.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
The straight answer is to adopt policies like Camden NJ. Which had terrible crime rates and has greatly reduced them via focusing more on education and recovery than retribution.

They aren't releasing dangerous criminals, so I don't know why that keeps being brought up. Once again, nobody in this thread has suggested releasing dangerous criminals.

You're arguing against policies that have not been proposed.
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Who said anything about nonviolent criminals? Its only been about violent criminals and repeat offenders. And those who want to defy the system and tear it down through violence.
Nobody said anything about anything else.

As a matter of fact, i gave a bit of personal history explaining how the system now currently treats all criminals the same and that shouldn't be. This is now basically what you have recently just said.

You just like to argue. Lol.

I never quoted you to start, yet you assumed i was talking about you. I would have wuoted you if i were.
I then explained to you and you argued against it even though it seems what i said we need is what you have propsed.
But you keep arguing instead of agreeing…

Nobody said this and nobody said that. Exactly. Nobody said anything about the nonviolent poor decision makers who know right from wrong but made a poor decision and wont do it again.
Nobody said that. or you can quote it when you try to argue.

Running circles here for what???

You seem to go out of e way to dismiss some agreed opinions to argue some all encompassing point but then come back and sus nobody said this or said that. yank and i have been talking about a particular sect of Criminals and you keep combining them with all other criminals. Interjecting nobody said anything in here. We know this or we would have quoted you saying this in response.

Some people are able to discuss outside of this S2 box with other members. Just because you consider only people talking in here should reference only people in here doesn't mean everyone else does.
Were talking about societal change. Of course there are more opinions out there than a few people on a forum. I happen to take that into a count. Not my issue if you don't and cant understand that others do.
so yes many people think different about this topic. And yes posters here can discuss what others outside of the forum think without you interjecting your views as the only view.
Maybe if you would have said, “correct. We need to individualize our investigations of criminals to properly punish and/or help, and this model does that”, then we wouldn't even need all this back and forth. But your inability to agree on things that have been stated that match your model and instead argue and argue in generalities is old…
 
BlazerBender said:
if the people keeping them locked up is society, then it absolutely is a benefit. Nothing is 100% and there are positives and negatives to most everything in life. To say there is absolutely no benefit, is simply not true.
I do not think you are giving enough value to peace of mind of law abiding citizens, that a repeat criminal is not on the street. As evidenced by our history. Most would prefer to pay more to keep these ilk off the streets, than pay less and have the potential for more cRime to continue to more people.

so once locked up, they can then do some civil duty work that benefits those they committed crimes against. Society.

Now dont misconstrue my opinion on this as thinking its the only thing that should be done. All convicts should also have access to rehabilitation needs. Like mental help, etc.

I was in jail once. For almost a month. South King County. For breaking a law that has since been made legal.
It was super laxed. Got to play basketball everyday. Play games and watch tv. It was almost like an adult summer camp. Large room with bunks and tables and board games, etc. jail is not as intimidating as it should be. I was busted with less than a gram of pot and i was in the same room as a rapist and two robbers at gun point. We had the same routine.
To me, this is the breakdown. Yes, thier sentence may have been longer, but we were being punished the same for completely different crimes.
There should be a complete breakdown of every convict as to the nature of their crime, their mental headspace, their history, etc, to determine what they need.
This doesn't happen near to the scale it should if we actually want to be successful at rehabbing criminals.

But some criminals will be deemed sadistic regardless. Some people believe in only anarchy and or self gratification at all costs. And those folks can weed eat the highway shoulders for all i care.
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@Phatguysrule do you agree with the bold or not ?
 
BlazerBender said:
Who said anything about nonviolent criminals? Its only been about violent criminals and repeat offenders. And those who want to defy the system and tear it down through violence.
Nobody said anything about anything else.

As a matter of fact, i gave a bit of personal history explaining how the system now currently treats all criminals the same and that shouldn't be. This is now basically what you have recently just said.

You just like to argue. Lol.

I never quoted you to start, yet you assumed i was talking about you. I would have wuoted you if i were.
I then explained to you and you argued against it even though it seems what i said we need is what you have propsed.
But you keep arguing instead of agreeing…

Nobody said this and nobody said that. Exactly. Nobody said anything about the nonviolent poor decision makers who know right from wrong but made a poor decision and wont do it again.
Nobody said that. or you can quote it when you try to argue.

Running circles here for what???

You seem to go out of e way to dismiss some agreed opinions to argue some all encompassing point but then come back and sus nobody said this or said that. yank and i have been talking about a particular sect of Criminals and you keep combining them with all other criminals. Interjecting nobody said anything in here. We know this or we would have quoted you saying this in response.

Some people are able to discuss outside of this S2 box with other members. Just because you consider only people talking in here should reference only people in here doesn't mean everyone else does.
Were talking about societal change. Of course there are more opinions out there than a few people on a forum. I happen to take that into a count. Not my issue if you don't and cant understand that others do.
so yes many people think different about this topic. And yes posters here can discuss what others outside of the forum think without you interjecting your views as the only view.
Maybe if you would have said, “correct. We need to individualize our investigations of criminals to properly punish and/or help, and this model does that”, then we wouldn't even need all this back and forth. But your inability to agree on things that have been stated that match your model and instead argue and argue in generalities is old…
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Look what thread we're in. It's about drug busts and crime in general. That's what I'm discussing.

The US system feeds people into the drug trade. Many criminals have said they learned the drug trade in jail by going in for much lower level crimes.

The US has the largest prison population on the planet, with extremely high rates of recidivism.

There are models that deal with these things well, as well as reduce overall crime rates and recidivism. These models have achieved similar results everywhere they have been implemented around the world. Including cities in the US.

I've suggested that we adopt these policies more broadly rather than policies we have used in the US, which have shown to be less effective and less efficient.

You can try to pick the model apart if you like, but it has proven to work better than anything else we've tried in this country. I'd prefer we use the model that appears to produce higher rates of productive citizens and lower rates of repeat offenders as well as lower crime rates, as well as lowers complaints about Police and actually lowers rates of police abuse. Without any evidence of increased danger to the public (in fact the evidence suggests exactly the opposite).

So if you're trying to pick the models apart please use sources showing a tested model that handles your specific complaint better (ideally with statistics on how well it works) to support your claims.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
So they deal with 'dangerous people" by not really dealing with them. And for the umpteenth time, comparing US crime vs most European crime is apples and oranges...even your link/s say this and though murders may be down in Camden, other crimes there are on the rise.

The problem is not so much the prison system as it the staggering amount of crime and the staggering amount of criminals who don't care if they go back to prison time and time again.

And gathering hardened criminals in a room and having them join in a group chorus of "Kum bay ah" is not going to change things. I have giving up on you providing concrete proof on your "models" being successful with these type people...do you have it or not? Also have yet to hear what "words I put in your mouth",

Instead of just saying things, back them up. If you can't/won't do this, I think we sould simply let this go.
Click to expand...
I have backed my claims up with links including stats.

You have not. I would suggest that you do so or, indeed, take your own advice and drop it.

I feel I've made my case as clearly as it can be made.

If you have specific concerns about the policies I've suggested I'd be happy to address any data you can link to that shows a weakness in these areas.
 
There needs to be a balance for how we as a country need to deal with criminal activity. I'm all for second chances but I also feel that as a society we cannot allow high level crimes to go unpunished. There must be a form of justice.
Its going to take all sorts of actions to address and sort out those that want rehabilitation to become a law abiding part of society again, and at the same time deal with those that are not interested and represent a serious danger in re-entering society.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
I have backed my claims up with links including stats.

That's BS, and you know it...you posted a few links that I'm not sure you even read...and consistently failed to answer my main question.

You have not. I would suggest that you do so or, indeed, take your own advice and drop it.

Ummm, you're the one who made the claim, not me, so the onus is on you to back up your claim...and you have not.

I feel I've made my case as clearly as it can be made.

Again, no you haven't...I have asked you repeatedly to show how your "model" has actually worked on "hardened criminals/multiple offenders"...you've presented nothing but empty words.

If you have specific concerns about the policies I've suggested I'd be happy to address any data you can link to that shows a weakness in these areas.
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lol...again, I've asked several times for specifics but you keep tap dancing around my queries...I thought you were better than this...I was evidently wrong.
 
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Hoopguru said:
There needs to be a balance for how we as a country need to deal with criminal activity. I'm all for second chances but I also feel that as a society we cannot allow high level crimes to go unpunished. There must be a form of justice.
Its going to take all sorts of actions to address and sort out those that want rehabilitation to become a law abiding part of society again, and at the same time deal with those that are not interested and represent a serious danger in re-entering society.
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Hoop, I agree, and this goes to your original post...we do need to "stop this kind of shit"...and I'd be willing to bet that the POS that was caught that huge cache of that terrible drug, is already at least a one time offender. And I can guaran-damn-tee that if someone close to me died from what this trafficker I certainly would not consider counseling him as justice.

Like I said earlier, I'm a bit liberal on some things but sympathy towards hardened criminals/multiple offenders is not one of them.
 
yankeesince59 said:
lol...again, I've asked several times for specifics but you keep tap dancing around my queries...I thought you were better than this...I was evidently wrong.
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You can continue to keep arguing all you want. I have made my suggestions.

If you have any evidence at all that the policies I have suggested increase violent or repeat crime please feel free to post any data or legitimate information to support those concerns.

I'm not interested in arguing about your gut feelings or personal opinion.
 
BlazerBender said:
Click to expand...

I don't have an opinion on the bold.

Once again, if you have concerns about the policies I have suggested please post legitimate data or reference material to support your concerns with the policies I have suggested.

I am not interested in arguing over your gut feelings or personal opinions.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't have an opinion on the bold.

Once again, if you have concerns about the policies I have suggested please post legitimate data or reference material to support your concerns with the policies I have suggested.

I am not interested in arguing over your gut feelings or personal opinions.
Click to expand...

Lol. Okay. We agreed and you cant just say so. Lol. You have real issues with that it seems. Time to read your posts as satire… you argue to argue. Period. Good day sir. :cheers:
 
Phatguysrule said:
You can continue to keep arguing all you want. I have made my suggestions.

If you have any evidence at all that the policies I have suggested increase violent or repeat crime please feel free to post any data or legitimate information to support those concerns.

I'm not interested in arguing about your gut feelings or personal opinion.
Click to expand...


WTF are you babbling about now? When did I ever say that your "policies" increase violent crime or repeat crime?...I didn't, and you know it...quote me where I did and I'll never post again.

So now you're relegated to simply making shit up?...And I assume you're not going to finally address my main question ?
 
yankeesince59 said:
WTF are you babbling about now? When did I ever say that your "policies" increase violent crime or repeat crime?...I didn't, and you know it...quote me where I did and I'll never post again.

So now you're relegated to simply making shit up?...And I assume you're not going to finally address my main question ?
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I didn't make any claims about your position.

I have no idea how I could address your main question better than I already have. I am sorry if that isn't acceptable for you.

If you have a specific problem with the policies I've proposed please feel free to address it with a reference to the position in said policy.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I didn't make any claims about your position.

I have no idea how I could address your main question better than I already have. I am sorry if that isn't acceptable for you.

Again, BS...You have not addressed it, and you know that too...I have the same question, you have the same answer, which is NO answer.

If you have a specific problem with the policies I've proposed please feel free to address it with a reference to the position in said policy.

LMAO...just when I thought you couldn't be anymore evasive and reply anymore lamely.

1. Answer my original question.

2. Show where I "put words in your mouth" as you claimed.

3. Show where I claimed that your "policies" increase violent crime or repeat crime" as you claimed.

(We both know that you either can't or won't, or both)
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I'm having trouble following what you're saying at this point.

Are you concerned about how they deal with dangerous people? They keep them in jail for the entirety of their sentence, unless they are deemed to no longer be dangerous.

I'm happy to discuss any specific concerns you may have with the policies I've suggested, but you'll have to be more clear about what parts you disagree with.
 
I suddenly had an epiphany...there's no sense in trying to having a coherent conversation with a cartoon.
 
I have absolutely no desire to continue this conversation with you any longer, or any other conversation, for that matter....to do so, is simply a complete waste of time, and this thread proves it.
 
yankeesince59 said:
I have absolutely no desire to continue this conversation with you any longer, or any other conversation, for that matter....to do so, is simply a complete waste of time, and this thread proves it.
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Well yes. It has been a complete waste of time since you have been proven to be incapable of having an honest conversation when you are clearly wrong.
 
LMFAO !!...what
BlazerBender said:
Lol. Okay. We agreed and you cant just say so. Lol. You have real issues with that it seems. Time to read your posts as satire… you argue to argue. Period. Good day sir. :cheers:
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...Yup, can't believe he had the audacity to claim some sort of victory....pathetic, yet predictable.
 
Hoopguru said:
Ill take blame I started the thread!
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Sorry Hoop, certainly not your fault and it was not my intent to turn it into a shit storm...and I wouldn't blame you one bit if you asked the Mod/s to remove it.
 
yankeesince59 said:
LMFAO !!...what



...Yup, can't believe he had the audacity to claim some sort of victory....pathetic, yet predictable.
Click to expand...

Thats how it goes around here. He wants everyone to listen to him but he refuses to check out links or listen to others and dismisses them quicker than a man with a hooker who just got caught by his wife. see how quickly a response came back regarding links with info.

No chance he. He checked out the links and info provided first before he dismissed it.

ridiculously one sided. Thats why some political discussions with some people, i treat as nothing more than entertainment.
He doesn't want a real answer he just wants everyone to agree his answers are right, without any rebuttal.
 
BlazerBender said:
Thats how it goes around here. He wants everyone to listen to him but he refuses to check out links or listen to others and dismisses them quicker than a man with a hooker who just got caught by his wife. see how quickly a response came back regarding links with info.

No chance he. He checked out the links and info provided first before he dismissed it.

ridiculously one sided. Thats why some political discussions with some people, i treat as nothing more than entertainment.
He doesn't want a real answer he just wants everyone to agree his answers are right, without any rebuttal.
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^^^Spot on, BB.....and that's exactly what happened with this thread...and I noticed the same thing in the "from my cold dead hands" thread...it's like trying to have a convo with Sheldon Cooper.
 
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Hoopguru said:
Ill take blame I started the thread!
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Sometimes we need threads like this to remind ourselves of how one sided some people are.
Its all good.
These discussions are needed to solve the problem. Regardless of what some people think who think they have all the answers and everyone should agree.
Its a hot topic no doubt.
If only some could discuss without shoving agendas sown others’ throats.
 
Hoopguru said:
There needs to be a balance for how we as a country need to deal with criminal activity. I'm all for second chances but I also feel that as a society we cannot allow high level crimes to go unpunished. There must be a form of justice.
Its going to take all sorts of actions to address and sort out those that want rehabilitation to become a law abiding part of society again, and at the same time deal with those that are not interested and represent a serious danger in re-entering society.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I'm not sure where the "one size fits all" narrative came from, but I don't think anybody in this thread has suggested anything of the sort as a solution. I don't think anybody has proposed a policy in which high level crimes would go unpunished either.

I've seen no evidence of these kinds of things happening in any of the proposed solutions.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Absolutely. I'm not sure where the "one size fits all" narrative came from, but I don't think anybody in this thread has suggested anything of the sort as a solution. I don't think anybody has proposed a policy in which high level crimes would go unpunished either.

I've seen no evidence of these kinds of things happening in any of the proposed solutions.
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Yeah, Ive never been a one size fits all or centralized way of doing things advocate. Im pro decentralized, better service and local relationship versus someone/gov making one size fits all policy and/or laws. Each State and City should be able to better serve their citizens, imo.
 
Soooo deeply sad right now.

Just found out a good friend died on May 13th, due to this shit.

Became friends with Mike Swanda when I started my current employment and we hung out often outside of work. He moved on about 6 years ago. I had invited him to a shin dig this weekend to find out from his mother he had passed away.
He was one of the funniest laid back guys I've ever met. Even roommated with one of the jackass guy for a few years in his 20's and almost made the firs movie.

Fuck leniency on drugs.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=492879


Fuck! Fuc,! Fuck!
 
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