Politics Wealth Tax

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Minstrel said:
It's a reasonable question, but one politicians generally don't ask one another, in either party, for a couple of reasons.

One is that every candidate is essentially promising things they can't deliver--not out of pure dishonesty, necessarily, but because President is a weird position--outside of executive orders (which largely impact execution of existing laws), the President has no direct ability to impact law or policy. But you still have to talk about what you'll do, and Presidential candidates all want to believe and project that they'll have the ability to influence law-makers and make deals and get Congress to go along with their agenda. But you don't win the Presidency by promising small--no one wants to hear that. So they have to promise big. What's the point in calling out someone else's pie-in-the-sky when you're promising your own? As an informed voter, you have to view "promises" or "plans" as, essentially, the aspirations of the candidate and what they'd lobby for. Not what they'd do. They can't do most of it..
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I'm getting great new health care...and Mexico's paying for it!
 
This year should have been better for most because of the Oregon kicker. It was a hefty 17ish% this year. That would explain why some got a bit if a jump in money back too.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
My tax return was better than last years, and Im middle class, getting back between Feds and State about 13k
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That is ridiculous. Would you invest 13k in a project that promised you only your money back in 12 months? That's essentially what you are doing.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
He does make a valid point. I've always felt that the goal of tax withholding should be to match your eventual tax liability as closely as possible. No reason the government should hold onto my money.
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I honestly don't really care as long as I don't owe anything at the end of the year. :dunno:
 
yankeesince59 said:
It's your money & ultimately your decision but why wait until you file your taxes from the previous year in order to receive money that's already yours?
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My oldest daughter is the same way and time after time I explained to her that it's her money the government is holding on to and won't give it back to her till late spring the following year.
 
yankeesince59 said:
It's your money & ultimately your decision but why wait until you file your taxes from the previous year in order to receive money that's already yours?
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Because saving up $13k when you get it a little at a time is hard for a lot of people, especially people with kids. Most people under normal circumstances will not save that money and put it an "great" investment. Then if you try to play it so you get $0 back you run the risk of owing money which can be burden.
 
CupWizier said:
My oldest daughter is the same way and time after time I explained to her that it's her money the government is holding on to and won't give it back to her till late spring the following year.
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Ok boomer. What is your savings like vs your oldest daughters? Easy to do when you can afford to do it
 
Man some of you boomers are obviously very out of touch with the financial situation of younger people. Its no wonder you are dont understand Bernie's position and the reason the younger generation likes him.
 
CupWizier said:
My oldest daughter is the same way and time after time I explained to her that it's her money the government is holding on to and won't give it back to her till late spring the following year.
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It's not that I don't understand, but it's much easier IMO to pay in extra over the year then to a.) spend a bunch of time figuring out what my liability is going to be at the end of the year and play guess the number which they change those things anyways, or b.) play it haphazard and just hope that I get close to 0. I made a choice to just say hey I'll pay in now, my bills are paid, my wife and kids eat and can do whatever, it's safer and easier to just know at the end of the year I won't have a big tax bill coming.
 
donkiez said:
Man some of you boomers are obviously very out of touch with the financial situation of younger people. Its no wonder you are dont understand Bernie's position and the reason the younger generation likes him.
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Here’s my basic point: In saying that they are going to pass and use a wealth tax to generate huge revenue to pay for free college, free health care, free childcare, etc., etc., Bernie and Liz are essentially selling you snake oil in exchange for your vote.
 
e_blazer said:
Here’s my basic point: In saying that they are going to pass and use a wealth tax to generate huge revenue to pay for free college, free health care, free childcare, etc., etc., Bernie and Liz are essentially selling you snake oil in exchange for your vote.
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Thats a valid point we can discuss. I was talking to cupwiz and yankeesince59 who seem to think young people have savings and expendable cash readily available to play the tax game and ideally invest their money. They dont seem to realize that most of the people in this country live paycheck to paycheck and the only time of year they might have extra cash is in their tax return, they dont have the luxury to invest their money, and slightly overpaying to get a return is the only way they can save money. If they underpay and owe even a few hundred bucks it can cause a huge burden coming up with that money.

Many boomers seem to think everyone is getting rich off their 401k and house investments. It was easy for them to acquire those things because they got a great job with a highschool education or got a college education paying for it with their summer job. Now these boomers are sucking at the teat of medicare and social security. Meanwhile young people are going into huge debt for their educations, getting priced out of the housing market and being forced into contractor level jobs that have no benefits, with no 401k and no health care. Young people also face the real possibility of not having social security available to them when they want to retire in 50 years.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
He does make a valid point. I've always felt that the goal of tax withholding should be to match your eventual tax liability as closely as possible. No reason the government should hold onto my money.
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right on, and its something Ive taught my kids (all 6). Ive also coached them to never include property tax & insurance in the mortgage payment, but save it in an account that draws interest. The other one is if they purchase a house try not to use FHA where they have to pay mortgage insurance for as long as they have the loan.
 
donkiez said:
Thats a valid point we can discuss. I was talking to cupwiz and yankeesince59 who seem to think young people have savings and expendable cash readily available to play the tax game and ideally invest their money. They dont seem to realize that most of the people in this country live paycheck to paycheck and the only time of year they might have extra cash is in their tax return, they dont have the luxury to invest their money, and slightly overpaying to get a return is the only way they can save money. If they underpay and owe even a few hundred bucks it can cause a huge burden coming up with that money.

Many boomers seem to think everyone is getting rich off their 401k and house investments. It was easy for them to acquire those things because they got a great job with a highschool education or got a college education paying for it with their summer job. Now these boomers are sucking at the teat of medicare and social security. Meanwhile young people are going into huge debt for their educations, getting priced out of the housing market and being forced into contractor level jobs that have no benefits, with no 401k and no health care. Young people also face the real possibility of not having social security available to them when they want to retire in 50 years.
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Some of that is true for some people of my generation, but hardly for everyone. Same is true for your generation. Some have it hard and some have it easier. I was able to pay for my state college education with summer work at the cannery and by signing up for ROTC. I used the GI Bill when I got out of the service to pay for my Master's degree. Our first house was a dinger in a crappy area of town. The price sounds trivial now, but the pay was a lot less and it took all we had to make the payments. I went to work for an engineering company and after a couple of years was making a decent wage, but they didn't have much in the way of benefits. No 401K, just a medical plan that I had to contribute to to pay for our new family. Our second house was a step up. About a year after we moved in there was a major recession and I lost my job and nearly the house. I managed to find a job just about the time baby #3 arrived. I decided to start a consulting practice with a buddy of mine shortly after that. We did okay until the next recession came around the corner and we had virtually no work. We were down to about $200 in the bank at one point. Craziest thing: my 4 year old kid was digging in the back yard and finds an old $20 gold coin that I was able to sell and instantly double our "wealth". Over time, things improved and I was able to make a good living and keep the family going on one income...something that seems practically impossible for my kids' generation. The big recession in 2006/07 nearly wiped me out as all work in the development industry suddenly vanished. That was about 5 really tough years that knocked my retirement plans totally out of whack. Things are going well now, but I'm 67 and still not retired. Everyone's life is different except that they all have tough times.
 
e_blazer said:
Some of that is true for some people of my generation, but hardly for everyone. Same is true for your generation. Some have it hard and some have it easier. I was able to pay for my state college education with summer work at the cannery and by signing up for ROTC. I used the GI Bill when I got out of the service to pay for my Master's degree. Our first house was a dinger in a crappy area of town. The price sounds trivial now, but the pay was a lot less and it took all we had to make the payments. I went to work for an engineering company and after a couple of years was making a decent wage, but they didn't have much in the way of benefits. No 401K, just a medical plan that I had to contribute to to pay for our new family. Our second house was a step up. About a year after we moved in there was a major recession and I lost my job and nearly the house. I managed to find a job just about the time baby #3 arrived. I decided to start a consulting practice with a buddy of mine shortly after that. We did okay until the next recession came around the corner and we had virtually no work. We were down to about $200 in the bank at one point. Craziest thing: my 4 year old kid was digging in the back yard and finds an old $20 gold coin that I was able to sell and instantly double our "wealth". Over time, things improved and I was able to make a good living and keep the family going on one income...something that seems practically impossible for my kids' generation. The big recession in 2006/07 nearly wiped me out as all work in the development industry suddenly vanished. That was about 5 really tough years that knocked my retirement plans totally out of whack. Things are going well now, but I'm 67 and still not retired. Everyone's life is different except that they all have tough times.
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Great story, glad things worked out for you. I am also very lucky, I am 42 and had my school paid for by my employer. I used all my money to buy a house in 2006 just before the crash and almost instantly lost half its value along with any stock wealth I had accumulated. I pushed through, modified my mortgage (thanks Obama!) and used my tax refund each year to improve my "fixer upper" house. I was trapped in my mortgage until last fall when I sold my house for a great profit, it was a old craftsman style house for the 1940's and with my improvements the hipsters loved it, I had multiple offers. I have a decent 401k and tons of stock from my company because of stock participation over the last 20 years of employment, my parents were also well off enough to help out a lot over those years so now I am sitting really well and am actually looking at a comfortable medical retirement in the next few years, as I have visual disability that has rendered me legally blind. I am super lucky but I had to also bust ass to get to here to take advantage of my luck. I do have step kids and they are looking at college which will put them into debt on obscene levels just to get a job that will pay just enough to live and their prospect of owning a house is nill until their 40's.

Everyone has their story, everyone has their struggles, but its a different world today than you grew up in, or that I even grew up in, kids are starting out so far behind that they might not ever catch up. The people who get ahead today are either exceptionally lucky or have parents who help them out a lot. That is why Bernie is gaining support. He might not have the right answers but he seems to be the only one who wants to help kids and not just keep the system rolling along.
 
donkiez said:
Great story, glad things worked out for you. I am also very lucky, I am 42 and had my school paid for by my employer. I used all my money to buy a house in 2006 just before the crash and almost instantly lost half its value along with any stock wealth I had accumulated. I pushed through, modified my mortgage (thanks Obama!) and used my tax refund each year to improve my "fixer upper" house. I was trapped in my mortgage until last fall when I sold my house for a great profit, it was a old craftsman style house for the 1940's and with my improvements the hipsters loved it, I had multiple offers. I have a decent 401k and tons of stock from my company because of stock participation over the last 20 years of employment, my parents were also well off enough to help out a lot over those years so now I am sitting really well and am actually looking at a comfortable medical retirement in the next few years, as I have visual disability that has rendered me legally blind. I am super lucky but I had to also bust ass to get to here to take advantage of my luck. I do have step kids and they are looking at college which will put them into debt on obscene levels just to get a job that will pay just enough to live and their prospect of owning a house is nill until their 40's.

Everyone has their story, everyone has their struggles, but its a different world today than you grew up in, or that I even grew up in, kids are starting out so far behind that they might not ever catch up. The people who get ahead today are either exceptionally lucky or have parents who help them out a lot. That is why Bernie is gaining support. He might not have the right answers but he seems to be the only one who wants to help kids and not just keep the system rolling along.
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I get the appeal of Sanders for younger voters. I just think he's a pied piper who tells a story that sounds appealing, but has zero chance of working.
 
donkiez said:
Great story, glad things worked out for you. I am also very lucky, I am 42 and had my school paid for by my employer. I used all my money to buy a house in 2006 just before the crash and almost instantly lost half its value along with any stock wealth I had accumulated. I pushed through, modified my mortgage (thanks Obama!) and used my tax refund each year to improve my "fixer upper" house. I was trapped in my mortgage until last fall when I sold my house for a great profit, it was a old craftsman style house for the 1940's and with my improvements the hipsters loved it, I had multiple offers. I have a decent 401k and tons of stock from my company because of stock participation over the last 20 years of employment, my parents were also well off enough to help out a lot over those years so now I am sitting really well and am actually looking at a comfortable medical retirement in the next few years, as I have visual disability that has rendered me legally blind. I am super lucky but I had to also bust ass to get to here to take advantage of my luck. I do have step kids and they are looking at college which will put them into debt on obscene levels just to get a job that will pay just enough to live and their prospect of owning a house is nill until their 40's.

Everyone has their story, everyone has their struggles, but its a different world today than you grew up in, or that I even grew up in, kids are starting out so far behind that they might not ever catch up. The people who get ahead today are either exceptionally lucky or have parents who help them out a lot. That is why Bernie is gaining support. He might not have the right answers but he seems to be the only one who wants to help kids and not just keep the system rolling along.
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While I know you and I disagree on Bernie, I will and have acknowledged that IMO at least the Democrats... well at least Bernie / Liz are actually trying to provide some answers and change to this because really IMO the republicans aren't and I lean conservative but it bothers me that they don't seem to even try to talk about the issues young people face. I know I have a pretty hard screw you towards the DNC and GOP, and I do play the "both sides" card (probably more than it needs to be), I try to look at it from more points of view than my own. I understand why young people see Bernie the way they do.
 
donkiez said:
Because saving up $13k when you get it a little at a time is hard for a lot of people, especially people with kids. Most people under normal circumstances will not save that money and put it an "great" investment. Then if you try to play it so you get $0 back you run the risk of owing money which can be burden.
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Don't see why it would be hard...a person can have the same amount of money electronically sent to a checking account/saving account/money market account, etc., (most companies' payroll allows for this) and actually draw interest on it months earlier...but you get 0% interest when the IRS holds your money for those same months.
Or, if you go ahead and receive that money through the year ((an extra $1100.00 a month) you can use it on the kids or whatever if/when you need it instead of having to wait till April the following year to get your money.
 
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e_blazer said:
I get the appeal of Sanders for younger voters. I just think he's a pied piper who tells a story that sounds appealing, but has zero chance of working.
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It's not as simple as that. Talking about things, even if they're not possible right now, moves the Overton Window. The more such topics are discussed by major candidates, the more mainstream the ideas become. The more mainstream they become, over time the less extreme they seem to people and that changes what it possible. Sanders should be talking about these things, as legitimate possibilities, even if he is unlikely to be able to get them done himself. By doing so, he's forcing more people to grapple with them, think about them and increasing the odds of such ideas happening one day. He's also ensuring that the next generations of voters are passionate about these ideas.
 
Minstrel said:
It's not as simple as that. Talking about things, even if they're not possible right now, moves the Overton Window. The more such topics are discussed by major candidates, the more mainstream the ideas become. The more mainstream they become, over time the less extreme they seem to people and that changes what it possible. Sanders should be talking about these things, as legitimate possibilities, even if he is unlikely to be able to get them done himself. By doing so, he's forcing more people to grapple with them, think about them and increasing the odds of such ideas happening one day.
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Exactly - it's the Barry Goldwater Effect only in the opposite direction.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Don't see why it would be hard...a person can have the same amount of money electronically sent to a saving account/money market account, etc., and actually draw interest on it months earlier (most companies' payroll allows for this)...but you get 0% interest when the IRS holds your money for those same months.
Or, if you go ahead and receive that money through the year you can use it on the kids or whatever if/when you need it instead of having to wait till April the following year.
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Honestly this statement is so out of touch with the reality that our younger generations face. All I can say is "ok boomer"
 
e_blazer said:
I get the appeal of Sanders for younger voters. I just think he's a pied piper who tells a story that sounds appealing, but has zero chance of working.
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TorturedBlazerFan said:
While I know you and I disagree on Bernie, I will and have acknowledged that IMO at least the Democrats... well at least Bernie / Liz are actually trying to provide some answers and change to this because really IMO the republicans aren't and I lean conservative but it bothers me that they don't seem to even try to talk about the issues young people face. I know I have a pretty hard screw you towards the DNC and GOP, and I do play the "both sides" card (probably more than it needs to be), I try to look at it from more points of view than my own. I understand why young people see Bernie the way they do.
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He might be a pied piper but at least he is trying to push things in that direction and give young people the same benefits boomers had. The moderate democrats want status quo and the republicans want to actually make things worse. My perspective is if we can afford wars we can afford health care and education, I dont care how they pay for it they just need to want to figure it out.
 
Minstrel said:
It's not as simple as that. Talking about things, even if they're not possible right now, moves the Overton Window. The more such topics are discussed by major candidates, the more mainstream the ideas become. The more mainstream they become, over time the less extreme they seem to people and that changes what it possible. Sanders should be talking about these things, as legitimate possibilities, even if he is unlikely to be able to get them done himself. By doing so, he's forcing more people to grapple with them, think about them and increasing the odds of such ideas happening one day.
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Maybe, maybe not, I wouldn’t recommend anybody skip their student loan payments.
 
donkiez said:
Ok boomer. What is your savings like vs your oldest daughters? Easy to do when you can afford to do it
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It makes no difference whether you are a millenial or a baby boomer. It's merely about letting the government have a large chunk of your money and get no interest on it, or put it in your own pocket to invest elsewhere. If someone is getting around 13k back then they are letting the government have that money during the year. It's not that hard to figure ones tax liability and know how much to have taken out and leave a little extra to keep from having to pay at the end of the year. I very seldom or ever paid but also never got a huge refund as it was in my paycheck every two weeks for me to use, not the government.
 
donkiez said:
Honestly this statement is so out of touch with the reality that our younger generations face. All I can say is "ok boomer"
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Am I supposed to be somehow offended by you referring to me as a "boomer"?...that seems to be your "go to" response to others as well..very compelling. I don't see what year I was born as relevant to the discussion.

You broadly claim that my statement is "out of touch" but you don't say exactly why...so I'll ask again,

Why would it be so hard or so encumbering from someone to have $1100.00 less per month deducted from their pay and put in their own bank account vs allowing the IRS to keep it for a year?
 
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