Weird (and Troubling?) Andre Miller Fact

[magnifier661]

Well, I certainly don't agree with such ridiculously extreme positions. Nor do I think they are remotely representative of the majority of Blazers fans. I won't be at the game tonight, but if I was I'd be cheering just as loud for Brandon Roy as every other member of my TEAM. I NEVER boo my team - EVER. I occasionally boo the refs (especially Dick Bavetta and Steve Javie) and occasionally heckle the opposition, but I never, ever boo my team. I'm there to support them.

BNM

WHOOOOT! rep'd

 

[jlprk]

Magnifier, since you misinterpreted absolutely everything he said, requiring countless clarifications, you should reverse your name to Blurry.

 

[OneSport3]

Even though I have the OP on ignore, for obvious reasons, I know EAXCTLY what this thread is about. We've seen it all before and it's SO predictable.

So, let me guess... The Blazers lose a couple games in a row and PapaG starts a thread bashing Andre Miller. Nevermind that Miller has totally outplayed Portland's other guards, we are losing this series and it's all Andre Miller's fault. Because PapaG thinks basketball is an individual sport - at least when it comes to blaming his favorite target everytime the Blazers lose. Teams don't lose playoff series, Andre Miller loses playoff series all by himself.

So, Miller has a PER of 24.7 for this series. Roy is at -8.2, Matthews is at 2.0 and Patty Mills is at -34.0. Yet, by some twsited form of illogic only he understands, the OP is trying desparately to find a way to pin losing this series on his favorite scapegoat.

That's what makes him a troll and that's why he's on ignore (but will respond to this post anyway, probably playing the victim card, which is his other calling card and why I knew BGrantFan was really PapaG after only 8 posts). Like I said, SO predictable.

BNM

You can't use reason and logic with someone that is unreasonable and illogical. He has already admitted that he makes linear arguments so he will skew facts that attempt to support his case.

 

[jlprk]

PapaG often inserts a little zinger which makes it personal. But they are lightweight zingers, like knats instead of bees. His little personal zingers mildly annoy, but aren't big enough to hurt. So I have no complaints.

That goes for all of you. I can easily take it. It's human nature to want to take the big guy down, so just keep trying. If I were in your tiny little shoes, I'd be doing the same thing, so I understand.

 

[Denny Crane]

Pritchard should be fired for letting Sergio go.

 

[jlprk]

Pritchard should be fired for letting Sergio go.

You just made me realize something.

Do you have evidence that that wasn't the reason? Why would Allen keep the reason a secret if it were any other reason?

There are other, lesser, theories, but the most likely is that Pritchard was fired for letting Sergio go.

Don't think so? Then explain why any other theory would result in Allen keeping his reason secret.

All right then. Questions? Good.

 

[PapaG]

You can't use reason and logic with someone that is unreasonable and illogical. He has already admitted that he makes linear arguments so he will skew facts that attempt to support his case.

What case did I make? True of False:

1) Andre Miller is in the Top 20 in NBA career assists
2) Andre Miller has never been past the first round of the playoffs

What facts did I skew? If my "argument" is linear, it should be easy for you to show which fact I skewed.

Also, since I've never 'admitted' to making linear arguments, of the two of us, you seem to be the one skewing facts to make your own linear argument.

 

[PapaG]

Do you honestly think anyone gives a f*** if you have them on ignore?

BNM, a man in his 50s, cares. The next step is for the lackeys in his repping circle to bow at his knee and author a "Me Too" post, with some Rep sprinkled on for taste.

 

[PapaG]

PapaG often inserts a little zinger which makes it personal. But they are lightweight zingers, like knats instead of bees. His little personal zingers mildly annoy, but aren't big enough to hurt. So I have no complaints.

That goes for all of you. I can easily take it. It's human nature to want to take the big guy down, so just keep trying. If I were in your tiny little shoes, I'd be doing the same thing, so I understand.

Those who get me, get me. Those who don't, announce it as if anybody cares.

 

[PapaG]

Nope no reference to you. Just a reference in general. When I was upset and posting what I was, it was mainly on the comments on the articles. Basically things like wishing he was dead, can't wait to go to the Rose Garden to boo him. Things like that. To me, that isn't a sign of a logical fan. It does nothing for the team and is just as much harmful as the possibilities that Roy's comments could have on the team.

Roy is an acceptable scapegoat. Posting a valid fact about Andre Miller is unacceptable.

Bow at his knee, and thy shall Rep him!

 

[BrianFromWA]

the OP had a good point, it's weird that Miller has been so good for so long and yet never played on a team that won a playoff series.

another point is that it's weird that Roy is a 3-time all-star, because only Tracy McGrady and Chris Bosh, Alvin Robertson and Steve Francis (in NBA HISTORY!) have 3 or more all-star appearances and no playoff series wins. Out of 189 players who qualify. That's like the bottom 2%.

(Edit: quick perusal of multiple all-star list cross-referenced with ABA&NBA stats. No time to run a script for it, so I might've missed one of the old-timers)

 

[PapaG]

the OP had a good point, it's weird that Miller has been so good for so long and yet never played on a team that won a playoff series.

another point is that it's weird that Roy is a 3-time all-star, because only Tracy McGrady and Chris Bosh, Alvin Robertson and Steve Francis (in NBA HISTORY!) have 3 or more all-star appearances and no playoff series wins. Out of 189 players who qualify. That's like the bottom 2%.

(Edit: quick perusal of multiple all-star list cross-referenced with ABA&NBA stats. No time to run a script for it, so I might've missed one of the old-timers)

Let's see both of these anomalies killed over the next 3 games! Both Miller and Roy are going to have to play well to end their respective streaks, although in terms of all-time NBA stats, Miller's is more of an outlier, IMO, just because of the amount of years he's been in the league to accumulate those stats.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Fair enough on both counts.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

tracy mcgrady lol, what a douche

 

[Boob-No-More]

A few more facts that may explain why Andre Miller has never been on a team that has won a playoff series. Basketball is a team sport. Teams win and lose games and win and lose playoff series.

Miller has never played on a team that was favored to win a playoff series. In fact, in most cases the opposing teams were a much higher seed with > 10 more regular season victories.

Miller has never played on a team with home court advantage in the playoffs.

Miller has never played on a team with better than the 6th best record in the conference.

Let's look at Miller's teams' regular season records vs. their first round opposition:

Season  Miller's Team  Opposition  Delta

2003-04    43-39         58-24      -15
2004-05    49-33         59-23      -10
2005-06    44-38         47-35       -3
2007-08    40-42         59-23      -19
2008-09    41-41         59-23      -18
2009-10    50-32         54-28       -4

Total    267-225        336-156     -69

Average  44.5-37.5       56-26      -11.5

In general, Miller has played on a bunch of low seeded, mediocre teams, going up against a bunch of teams that won considerably more games and were heavily favored to win the series. Last year's Portland team was the first time Miller has ever played on a 50-win team, yet his teams' opposition has routinely won 54 to 59 games.

There isn't a single example that shows Miller's teams have underachieved in the playoffs and lost a series they should have won. That's a fact. Saying shit like Andre Miller has never won a playoff series is just plane stupid. Individuals don't win and lose playoff series, teams do. And, the simple fact is Andre Miller has never played on a team that was good enough to win a playoff series against the opposition they faced.

Anyone care to do the same exercise for Brandon Roy? Hint: historically, Roy's teams have underachieved 50% of the time during the post season. But, as I said, teams win and lose playoff series, not individual players. So, I'm not trying to pin the blame on Roy for his teams underachieving in the post season. Only an idiot would blame one player for such failures.

BNM

 

[magnifier661]

BNM, I love Miller and I love Roy! I hope all of them, including Batum, Wes and even Mills do great the moment they step on the court. Last night showed that Miller, Wes and Roy could all co-exist and all be just as important to a win than anyone else.

GO BLAZERS!

 

[Boob-No-More]

BNM, I love Miller and I love Roy! I hope all of them, including Batum, Wes and even Mills do great the moment they step on the court. Last night showed that Miller, Wes and Roy could all co-exist and all be just as important to a win than anyone else.

I don't disagree with any of that. I was specifically addressing the issue of Andre Miller's teams not winning in the playoffs and trying to show how stupid it is to assign blame to one player for losing a series and ignoring all the other factors (i.e. the quality of his teammates, the strength of the opposition, lack of home court advantage, etc.). Trying to draw (or imply) a conclusion based on a single factor in a multi-variable problem is illogical and just plain stupid when there are multiple, more significant factors involved.

BNM

 

[magnifier661]

I don't disagree with any of that. I was specifically addressing the issue of Andre Miller's teams not winning in the playoffs and trying to show how stupid it is to assign blame to one player for losing a series and ignoring all the other factors (i.e. the quality of his teammates, the strength of the opposition, lack of home court advantage, etc.). Trying to draw (or imply) a conclusion based on a single factor in a multi-variable problem is illogical and just plain stupid when there are multiple, more significant factors involved.

BNM

I 100% agree that no single player is responsible for a playoff loss

 

[PapaG]

I 100% agree that no single player is responsible for a playoff loss

I'm still trying to figure out where I solely blame Miller for never winning a playoff series. Perhaps one of you experts, like BoobNoMore, can point out that post.

The obvious troll, SlyPokerDog, seems to be a liar. Although, he does admit to not reading my posts as well, which makes him an ignorant liar.

 

[jlprk]

In general, Miller has played on a bunch of low seeded, mediocre teams, going up against a bunch of teams that won considerably more games and were heavily favored to win the series.

I'm not a Miller critic, but one would answer you: When you blame his team for its mediocrity, that means you dole out blame to each player, with the point guard often the big wheel who deserves more blame than others.

The obvious troll, SlyPokerDog, seems to be a liar. Although, he does admit to not reading my posts as well, which makes him an ignorant liar.

To be edited?

 

[magnifier661]

I'm still trying to figure out where I solely blame Miller for never winning a playoff series. Perhaps one of you experts, like BoobNoMore, can point out that post.

The obvious troll, SlyPokerDog, seems to be a liar. Although, he does admit to not reading my posts as well, which makes him an ignorant liar.

I don't know man. I'm just happy we won and most of all, it was a team effort. I would have hated if Roy played 35+ minutes and sucked the life from all the other players, and we still won. I would also hate if that same thing happened if Miller was jacking up shot after shot too.

So basically, I am just happy that our team came out as a team; instead of individuals. I get points on both sides and frankly, I don't give a shit anymore. I just want to win baby!

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm not a Miller critic, but one would answer you: When you blame his team for its mediocrity, that means you dole out blame to each player, with the point guard often the big wheel who deserves more blame than others.

Yes, I do believe all players share both blame and credit for their team's success, or lack of success. I don't agree, however that the PG is necessarily more or less important than the other players. It really depends on the team.

Does Derek Fisher deserve more credit than Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal for those rings he won? Does John Paxon deserve more credit than Michael Jordan or Scottie Pippen? Did Avery Johnson deserve more credit than Tim Duncan?

I tend to hand out credit,or blame, proportionally to the importance of the player to his team. Miller has never clearly been the best player on his team. He's usually been second or third best. He's never been an allstar and certainly isn't a superstar. He's basically been the 10th - 15th best PG in the league for most of his career - above average, but not the kind of player who can lead his team to post season success without significant help. Miller's biggest "fault" is he's never been on team with clearly superior teammates.

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

I'm still trying to figure out where I solely blame Miller for never winning a playoff series.

What did you find potentially "troubling" about the statistic you quoted, PapaG?

 

[BlazerCaravan]

What did you find potentially "troubling" about the statistic you quoted, PapaG?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

To be edited?

Nah, Papa G is free to call me anything he wants.

 

[PapaG]

What did you find potentially "troubling" about the statistic you quoted, PapaG?

That a team with Miller on it has never won a playoff series, and how that pattern may extend into this season, which would be troubling for the Blazers and their fans. He's an outlier on the Top 50 list, as I've posted previously. I don't solely blame him, and I never did solely blame him.

You chasing me around doesn't work, mainly because you make up my argument for me. Are you taking lessons from BoobNoMore?

In this instance, the pattern could be troubling (?), in terms of the success of the Blazers in this series.

 

[Minstrel]

That a team with Miller on it has never won a playoff series, and how that pattern may extend into this season, which would be troubling for the Blazers and their fans.

But if that isn't Miller's fault, why would it impact the Blazers?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i guess why it isnt troubling me is that his postseason appearances prior to this series dont necessarily mean anything to me. he is clearly playing well THIS series. and probably most of the other ones.

a team comprised entirely of andres of various sizes would have won a couple series by now.

 

[PapaG]

But if that isn't Miller's fault, why would it impact the Blazers?

It's not solely Miller's fault. Now you're just being boring; mailing it in, if you will, with the strawmen.

He was a part of those teams as their starting PG; hence, he takes some blame for the losses.

Later!

 

[magnifier661]

It's not solely Miller's fault. Now you're just being boring; mailing it in, if you will, with the strawmen.

He was a part of those teams as their starting PG; hence, he takes some blame for the losses.

Later!

Dude it makes no sense that you are defending Roy and saying losses aren't soley his fault, then use something like this about Miller. I defend both of them. What we saw last night was Miller, Wes and Roy being able to co-exist on the floor. They actually played well together. No Roy vs. Miller, Nate vs. Miller, Nate vs. Roy, Roy vs. Aldridge.... None of that! Who gives a shit what happened until now?!?! We showed one night that everyone was on the same page.

Did you see Roy's interview? He's happy, the team's happy and us fans should be happy.