Welcome to Hell, Blazer fans. (1 Viewer)

[maxiep]

Weren't the Blazers a team barely scrapping into the playoffs just before trading for Buck Williams?

Check the top four players from that team.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=POR&lg=n&yr=1988

First, Buck was the final piece. Does anyone think we're a Buck Williams-level player from competing for a championship?

Second, we had a coaching change that year, from Schuler to Adelman.

I wish a 20 game jump were realistic, but even if McCollum turns into another Lillard, that's unlikely to happen.

 

[Blazer4ever]

Lillard/McCollum backcourt should be quite interesting, also an improved bench and maybe not tanking should give us some more wins this year.
Trading some pieces for Asik (we have too many 2s) could also improve our chances.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Check the top four players from that team.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=POR&lg=n&yr=1988

First, Buck was the final piece. Does anyone think we're a Buck Williams-level player from competing for a championship?

Second, we had a coaching change that year, from Schuler to Adelman.

I wish a 20 game jump were realistic, but even if McCollum turns into another Lillard, that's unlikely to happen.

I'm not judging yea or nay on this, so i'm just going to post my thoughts out loud as I look:

The PER of the starting five from 1988-89: 23.6, 17.7, 16.6, 14.6, and 13.9
The PER of the starting five from 2012-13: 20.4, 19.7, 16.4, 15.7, and 14.1

Buck Williams replaced the 14.6 (with a 14.3 in 1989-90); RoLo replaces the 19.7 (with a ??.? in 2013-14)

1989-90 Starting 5 PERs: 22.2 (heh, Clyde), 20.0, 15.7, 14.3, 13.3
2013-14 Starting 5 PERs: ????

LMA needs to get more efficient, Damian needs to get way more efficient, but everyone else can pretty much stay put in order for us to be on par with 1989-90. As an aside, Duck was righteously inefficient; RoLo doesn't have to do much to exceed Duck's impact on the game, or Buck's for that matter. I guess the point here is fit. Buck fit with the team much better than Kiki. RoLo might (??) fit with the team way better than Hickson. If Damian steps up his game a lot, either by opportunity because defenders will have a harder time or by sheer force of skill, everyone else's impact goes up too.

Are we a "single piece" away? Who the hell knows. I can respect the opinion of "heck no" given how little we've improved in the past couple of years as a team. At the same time, maybe some players added to our mix that fit right are already on the roster, and we'll see that improvement that comes when the dice fall right, and the sum is greater than the parts.

 

[Draco]

To those proponents of tanking; would you trade the Blazers roster with the 6ers, Suns, Bobcats, Celtics, or Bucks?

I think we are much closer to getting a championship than any of those teams. Even if a team like the Suns strikes gold and wins the lottery, drafts Wiggins, they aren't going to be close to contending.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

The Blazers have a 45 win team currently. You think with the MLE the next two seasons as well as a roster full of contracts ending in two years, we have no chance of improving on that win total?

It is hard to visualize the current group playing better since our bench was so bad last year. I personally look forward to a full complement of options coming off the bench this year as well as a second year of play under Stotts.

 

[Mediocre Man]

To those proponents of tanking; would you trade the Blazers roster with the 6ers, Suns, Bobcats, Celtics, or Bucks?

I think we are much closer to getting a championship than any of those teams. Even if a team like the Suns strikes gold and wins the lottery, drafts Wiggins, they aren't going to be close to contending.

Whichever team drafts Wiggins, Parker or even Randall will be much closer to a title than us. Luckily for us we don't need to worry about the best draft in over a decade next summer

 

[TripTango]

First, Buck was the final piece. Does anyone think we're a Buck Williams-level player from competing for a championship?

You know what? If we added a young Buck Williams to this roster I would feel pretty damn good about it. I'm still hoping that T-Rob can take on that role somewhat.

 

[Denny Crane]

Indy.

Ranked #2 in the ESPN power rankings.

Who wants to play in Indy?

 

[THE HCP]

Maybe Thomas Robinson is our Buck Williams. No post game to think of, but can scrap fill the lane on the break and hit the boards. We'll see how he plays on the defensive end.

 

[Mediocre Man]

16/12 17.2 PER as a rookie (Rookie of the year)

vs

5/4 10.9 PER as a rookie Traded twice as a rookie)

The similarities are uncanny. I mean who is who, you really can't tell

 

[THE HCP]

16/12 17.2 PER as a rookie (Rookie of the year)

vs

5/4 10.9 PER as a rookie Traded twice as a rookie)

The similarities are uncanny. I mean who is who, you really can't tell

Talking styles of play MM. I'm not putting Robinson at his level yet, just saying maybe.

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

Buck was the final piece. Does anyone think we're a Buck Williams-level player from competing for a championship?

I wish a 20 game jump were realistic, but even if McCollum turns into another Lillard, that's unlikely to happen.

I'm hoping we've already picked up our "Buck" in T-Rob. I also have more optimism for him turning into an important team cog than CJ. Not saying CJ won't pan out but I think there is more need with T-Rob and I think he is working with a chip on his shoulder and will add some significant value.

At least, that is my fantasy.

Gramps...

 

[THE HCP]

My fantasy is you me and your sister in a hot tub!

 

[Nikolokolus]

Mediocrity is a lot like that crazy, high drama chick your brother is dating that you hate. You keep warning him not to get too close or, God forbid, get stuck in a bad marriage, but in the back of your mind you just know she's going to sink her claws into him. Next thing you know it's two years later and she's walking down the aisle and you look over at your brother and he's got this stupid grin plastered all over his face. You shrug and sigh, thinking to yourself, "welcome to the family."

 

[Draco]

Whichever team drafts Wiggins, Parker or even Randall will be much closer to a title than us. Luckily for us we don't need to worry about the best draft in over a decade next summer

I'd much rather have our roster than the Suns roster with Randall.

 

[e_blazer]

Whichever team drafts Wiggins, Parker or even Randall will be much closer to a title than us. Luckily for us we don't need to worry about the best draft in over a decade next summer

A. Maybe true, but then someone somewhere was saying the same thing about Greg Oden in 2007. There is no straight line equation that leads with certainty to being a contender; ie. shit happens.

B. There is nothing, short of wiping out half the roster with injuries or such a blatant intentional tank that the league would cry foul, that would result in the Blazers getting a significant shot at the top 3 picks in this year's draft.

C. By getting bad enough to have a shot at any of those guys you absolutely guarantee that Aldridge is gone.

 

[e_blazer]

I'd also point out that the Indiana Pacers made the ECF last season primarily because a #10 pick (George) and a #17 pick (Hibbert) were given the time they needed to develop into All Star talent. In other words, while shit does happen, good stuff does too.

 

[mook]

Over the summer the Blazers could have gone into full tank mode. Trade Aldridge for draft picks and a shitty contract. Sign on a bunch of shitty borderline players that are young and hopefully have upside. Roll the ball out there and tell Lillard to start jacking shots. Cross your fingers and hope for a top 3 pick as we stay mired in tanksville.

Clearly, by going after Lopez and Mo Williams and holding on to LMA we went a different path. I'm ok with that. We've got guys with lots of upside, and we can always still trade Mo, LMA, Lopez, Batum and Matthews down the line. Everybody is signed to very moveable contracts if we want to go the tanking route. We'll miss out on the draft this year, but at some point we are going to lose that pick and we might as well do it now.

In some ways, the cheap quality talent we added over the summer positioned us for a much more effective tank mode next summer, should we choose that route.

 

[noknobs]

I still remember the good old days, when people didn't freak out and proclaim the team was mediocre, and would continue to be mediocre for all eternity, until game two of the preseason...

 

[Draco]

A. Maybe true, but then someone somewhere was saying the same thing about Greg Oden in 2007. There is no straight line equation that leads with certainty to being a contender; ie. shit happens.

B. There is nothing, short of wiping out half the roster with injuries or such a blatant intentional tank that the league would cry foul, that would result in the Blazers getting a significant shot at the top 3 picks in this year's draft.

C. By getting bad enough to have a shot at any of those guys you absolutely guarantee that Aldridge is gone.

Yeah I think some of the tanking fanboys have no idea how difficult it is to get a top 3 pick. It’s not like in football where the Chiefs can have 6 pro-bowlers on a team that gets the #1 pick. There is a lot of terrible teams in the NBA, to be as bad as those teams the roster has to be horrific. Its really a competition to be that bad; the Blazers would have to trade away Aldridge and Lillard to have a chance at one of those top picks. Or trade away one of them and multiple other players such as Batum.

Tanking isn’t some magic elixir that easily wins titles. Yes there are times it might be good to take a step back before taking a bigger step forward, if the roster has no stars and needs to build assets.

Long term tanking is just never going to be an option for a team in the market like the Blazers. This team was barely profitable when they had a winning record. The team will have the city lease expire in about a decade and can move the team. If they go in to a 5 year tank fest their revenue is going to fall to the floor. Fan support would drop. Ownership will never approve those kinds of losses even if it increased the chance of fielding a contender. Since there are many who dispute the notion tanking helps; you can be certain it won’t happen in Portland anytime soon.

 

[RR7]

I still don't see how a team as young as ours has essentially peaked and is already "stuck" in mediocrity. Everyone says you build by going young, and you build through the draft and smart trades. We have 4 lotto picks from the past 2 years on our roster. We traded some 2nd rounders for a solid starting C who is only 25. We have 3 starters on our team 25 and under. We have only one expected rotation player that is over 30. We've started off our rebuild, and are sitting on 4 lotto picks after a 2 year rebuild.
It's like someone hears that mediocrity is the worst thing, sees us picked to be in the middle, and without putting any thought to it, claims woe is us for being in the middle. If all of our starters were 30, 31, 32. Yeah. I hear you. When almost the entire team has room to grow, with nobody on a really bad contract, giving you lots of flexibility I just don't see it.

Again, what teams built the way suggested have gone from bottom 5 to top 5 over night? OKC went from bottom feeder to 8th seed, (oh no!! Purgatory!!), to a 4th seed, to 2, to 1. Who? Who has done it, to where that should be somehow what we pull off?

 

[maxiep]

Indy.

Ranked #2 in the ESPN power rankings.

Who wants to play in Indy?

Someone that wants a shot at a ring. We used to be that team in the 90s. Barkley wanted to play for us. If our roster was in Indianapolis instead of Portland, no one would be going to Indy for a chance to play for the Pacers.

In other words, you're making my point for me.

 

[maxiep]

Maybe Thomas Robinson is our Buck Williams. No post game to think of, but can scrap fill the lane on the break and hit the boards. We'll see how he plays on the defensive end.

If everything rolls the right way for T-Rob, he could never hope to be near the player Buck Williams was.

I think people forget what a player he was because he sublimated his game when he became a Blazer. When he was a Net, he was the be-all and end-all of that franchise.

 

[RR7]

Someone that wants a shot at a ring. We used to be that team in the 90s. Barkley wanted to play for us. If our roster was in Indianapolis instead of Portland, no one would be going to Indy for a chance to play for the Pacers.

In other words, you're making my point for me.

How is he helping you make your point? The exact opposite actually. Indy was exactly where you said is the worst place to be, and now a few short years later, they're a legit contender.

 

[maxiep]

How is he helping you make your point? The exact opposite actually. Indy was exactly where you said is the worst place to be, and now a few short years later, they're a legit contender.

Addressing Denny's point that no one would want to play in Indy, they would want to play there now that they're good.

As for how they stayed in the middle and got better, everything broke right for them. Hibbert developed, George was better than expected and they signed David West, who was viewed as overpaid at the time. The exception doesn't prove the rule.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it rarely does. In fact, it happened to us back in the 80s. However, do you really want to hang your hat on Clyde Drexler being available with the #14 pick in the draft?

 

[HailBlazers]

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it rarely does. In fact, it happened to us back in the 80s. However, do you really want to hang your hat on Clyde Drexler being available with the #14 pick in the draft?

IDK, but I would like a chance to see C.J. and T-Rob actually play in a Blazers uniform before declaring the season hell

 

[maxiep]

IDK, but I would like a chance to see C.J. and T-Rob actually play in a Blazers uniform before declaring the season hell

What I want to see is how Robinson and Aldridge play together. I think you can play LA at a stretch five and have Robinson play a power four. Defensively it's a bit of a problem as you need LA's length to defend fives in the post. However, if you can pull out the center to defend LA on the elbow, you open up the middle for Lillard to drive and T-Rob to clean up the boards.

 

[maxiep]

And to be clear, I don't think this season will be "Hell". I think we'll be perfectly average. However, that puts us in the toughest possible situation. You can make the jump from 25 wins to 45 easier than you can make the jump from 45 to 55.

Last time we sucked we managed to obtain three franchise-level players: Roy, LA and GO. This time, we didn't get quite as much. And the only way we're getting a star free agent to sign with us is to make the leap to contender. THAT's the focus of my criticism.

 

[KingSpeed]

Yes we are a piece away from contending. But the problem is if we successfully tank and acquire a stud young talent we will be a piece away from contending. Cleveland, New Orleans, Orlando all had the same problem, they acquired a stud young guy but he made them too successful they wouldn't be able to easily draft another one. Those teams never were able to acquire another all-star player and their stud eventually left.

So if we tore apart the team and successfully tanked, eventually we will be at the same place we are at now. The team needs to get lucky with a trade like the Clippers being able to acquire CP3 or they need to get lucky at the end of the draft like the Spurs and Pacers did. No matter the strategy the final step to build a contender is very difficult and will take some luck.

For the ride along the way I'd enjoy it more if the team won some extra games.

Cleveland acquired Mo Williams (All Star)
Orlando had Jameer Nelson (All Star)
NO had David West (All Star)

 

[KingSpeed]

How many teams, or how often, does a team go from the bottom 5-7 to the top 5-7 immediately, without an upward trend that includes a stop somewhere in the middle?

Almost never. Maxiep doesn't know what he's talking about.