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Boob-No-More said:
I already addressed this. He was a 19-year old freshman that came off the bench behind a 23-year old 7'1" 304 lb. 5th year senior.

The last Zach we drafted wasn't a starter in college either, and he turned out to be a pretty decent NBA player.

Do you realize how many great NBA players did not start as freshmen? Russel Westbrook did not start as a freshman at UCLA and one played 9 MPG averaging 3.4 PPG. Jimmy Butler did not start as a freshman. Draymond Green didn't start as a freshman.

As far as playing in a weak conference goes, did you see how he played in the NCAA Tournament? He may not been a starter, but he was named 1st team all tournament. He played against some pretty good competition and played very well.

BNM
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1. He's white

2. He didn't start as a freshman


He's a bust. Sorry.
 
Blazers Roy said:
We don't know anything.

The draft is a gamble.

What i expect from Monk:
-To be a great scorer/shooter (Easy bet).
-To be athletic enough for the NBA (He is).
-To be explosive enough so he can penetrate and get easy baskets (good bet).
-To be an above average defender (Shown the potential, even though he's not a good off-ball defender).

What we need from Collins:
-To be a good rebounder against big NBA players and not children (who knows).
-To be quick and agile enough so he can switch and defend NBA guards (big bet).
-To be able to put a body and block NBA players in time (big bet).
-To be a good shooter (easy bet).

I just think Collins has more unknowns in this game, i see him as 10 and 7 guy AT BEST.
Maybe i'm jaded after seeing so many tall players like him who ended up being failures.

I think it would have been easier to get Monk and trade him for a proven PF down the line.
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Fair enough. But some of what you say about Collins is untrue. He rebounded WELL against elite competition in the tourney. So it's not a "who knows" on his rebounding. You're making things up when you say "rebounding against players that are not children"...
 
Here's the truth; if Collins stayed another year, he would've most likely been a top 5 pick, probably top 3.

I remember when I was first saw Collins. I wanted to hate him. I mean look at his face. Then as I watched him play, I got geeked up. There's really nothing on a basketball court he can't do, at some level. It's the same reason I wanted Nurkic. His basketball instincts are off the charts, especially defensively. That will get him on the court quicker than most rookies, especially on this team.
 
Scalma said:
1. He's white

2. He didn't start as a freshman


He's a bust. Sorry.
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I do find the whole WABC bust thing ridiculous - it's all pretty much driven by the fact that one big white guy we took late in the lottery didn't pan out.

Ironic isn't it, given our three biggest draft busts (LaRue Martin, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden), by far, were all taken 1st or 2nd, and while all of them were American born centers, not one of them was white.

Last I checked, neither are Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Michael Olowokandi or Anthony Bennet. Yet, I have never seen a single poster on this board say we should never draft a BABC in the lottery.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
I do find the whole WABC bust thing ridiculous - it's all pretty much driven by the fact that one big white guy we took late in the lottery didn't pan out.

Ironic isn't it, given our three biggest draft busts (LaRue Martin, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden), by far, were all taken 1st or 2nd, and while all of them were American born centers, not one of them was white.

Last I checked, neither are Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Michael Olowokandi or Anthony Bennet. Yet, I have never seen a single poster on this board say we should never draft a BABC in the lottery.

BNM
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So who is the last white American born center that really panned out?
 
Boob-No-More said:
I do find the whole WABC bust thing ridiculous - it's all pretty much driven by the fact that one big white guy we took late in the lottery didn't pan out.

Ironic isn't it, given our three biggest draft busts (LaRue Martin, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden), by far, were all taken 1st or 2nd, and while all of them were American born centers, not one of them was white.

Last I checked, neither are Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Michael Olowokandi or Anthony Bennet. Yet, I have never seen a single poster on this board say we should never draft a BABC in the lottery.

BNM
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It's lazy at best. Leonard wishes he had half the instincts Collins plays with. Besides being more skilled, Collins is also a better athlete. Leonard can run in a straight line and jump, but that's about it. Leonards lateral movement is below average, and his lack of instincts slows him down even more. Leonard came into the league as a project, a theory. Collins is more ready after one year in college than Leonard was after two. But I guess being white trumps all of that...
 
dviss1 said:
Dafuq are you? In the words of The Great Dame:

"I'm tryna figure out why you think your opinion carries much weight :smiley-hmm:"
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Never said nor implied that it did. Though if I were to say, I'd say my opinion carries as much weight as any other Blazers fans does.

I am just a Blazers fan who woke up in a silly mood and made a silly post, nothing more.
 
Natebishop3 said:
So who is the last white American born center that really panned out?
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White American born centers drafted in the last ten years

Hawes
Mullens
Aldrich
Meyers
Zeller brothers
Plumlee brothers
Olynyk

And now Collins

I didn't count the Lopez brothers since they're probably not white enough for you.

10 guys in 10 years.

Now how many of them were top 10 picks? Two. Collins and Zeller. Not much of a sample size.

Now list all the black American centers drafted in the first round and tell me what percentage of them panned out. It's only fair. Right?
 
Scalma said:
White American born centers drafted in the last ten years

Hawes
Mullens
Aldrich
Meyers
Zeller brothers
Plumlee brothers
Olynyk

And now Collins

I didn't count the Lopez brothers since they're probably not white enough for you.

10 guys in 10 years.

Now how many of them were top 10 picks? Two. Collins and Zeller. Not much of a sample size.

Now list all the black American centers drafted in the first round and tell me what percentage of them panned out. It's only fair. Right?
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So..... zero All-Stars. I guess it all depends on how you define "panned out." We took Collins in the top 10. If you really want to compare him to the likes of Meyers, the Plumlee brothers, and Spencer Hawes... well..... I guess you can do that at your own peril.
 
Natebishop3 said:
If you really want to compare him to the likes of Meyers, the Plumlee brothers, and Spencer Hawes... well..... I guess you can do that at your own peril.
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I don't. I can see beyond skin color. (Btw this isn't necessarily directed at you. I don't know what your stance is.)
 
Scalma said:
I don't. I can see beyond skin color. (Btw this isn't necessarily directed at you. I don't know what your stance is.)
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I don't think it's impossible for a white guy from the US to be a great player.... but they're basically unicorns. Every guy you listed is a role player. Not a single star player on that list. Who was the last white, American born, big man that made the All-Star team? The point is that the odds are not in our favor. They're EXTREMELY rare.

Edit - probably Kevin Love if you call him a big man.
 
Scalma said:
White American born centers drafted in the last ten years

Hawes
Mullens
Aldrich
Meyers
Zeller brothers
Plumlee brothers
Olynyk

And now Collins

I didn't count the Lopez brothers since they're probably not white enough for you.

10 guys in 10 years.

Now how many of them were top 10 picks? Two. Collins and Zeller. Not much of a sample size.

Now list all the black American centers drafted in the first round and tell me what percentage of them panned out. It's only fair. Right?
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You forgot Frank Kaminsky.
 
Road Ratt said:
Never said nor implied that it did. Though if I were to say, I'd say my opinion carries as much weight as any other Blazers fans does.

I am just a Blazers fan who woke up in a silly mood and made a silly post, nothing more.
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Fair enough.
 
Natebishop3 said:
So who is the last white American born center that really panned out?
Click to expand...

That's an interesting question and it depends on what you mean by "panned out". If you mean "became a perennial all star and first ballot Hall of Famer" you're going to have to go back a ways, but of you just mean someone who "wasn't a total bust that proved worthy of their draft position" it open it up to guys like Mason Plumlee and Chris Kaman (who are just two I happen to think of because they recently played for the Blazers).

The whole WABC as a bust thing is blow way out of proportion as there have actually been very few in the last 15 years for the very simple reason there have been a very tiny relative number of WABC taken in the lottery over that time span.

On the other hand, there have been a lot of BABC and international centers, both black and white, that have been selected in the lottery that have been total busts.

By my count, these are the only WABC take in the lottery since 2002:

2003, Chris Kaman, 6th - 1 time all star
2003, Nick Collison (really more of a PF), 12th - solid role player
2004, Robert Swift, 12th - unequivocal bust
2007, Spencer Hawes, 10th - marginal role player
2010, Cole Aldrich, 11th - margnal role player
2012, Meyers Leonard, 11th - unequivocal bust
2013, Cody Zeller, 4th - marginal role player
2013, Kelly Olynyk, 13th - solid role player
2015, Frank Kaminski, 9th - solid role player

That's a pretty small sample size, and most of those guys have been solid or marginal role players. The only unequivocal busts in that group are Robert Swift and Meyers Leonard. Zeller was a reach at 4th, but looking back on that draft, there weren't any future all stars taken after him in the lottery. Kind of hard to call a guy a bust when it was just an overall weak draft class.

During that same time frame, all of the following BABC and international centers have all been unequivocal busts:

2002, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, 5th - unequivocal bust
2003, Darko Milicic, 2nd - monumental bust
2003, Mike Sweetney, 9th - unequivocal bust
2004, Rafael Araujo, 8th - unequivocal bust
2005, Sean May, 13th - unequivocal bust
2006, Andrea Bargnani, 1st - monumental bust
2006, Shelden Williams, 5th - unequivocal bust
2006, Patrick O'Bryant, 9th - unequivocal bust
2006, Mohamed Sene, 10th - unequivocal bust
2006, Hilton Armstrong, 12th - unequivocal bust
2007, Greg Oden, 1st - monumental bust
2007, Yi Jianlian, 6th - unequivocal bust
2009, Hasheem Thabeet, 2nd - - monumental bust
2010, Epke Udoh, 6th - unequivocal bust
2011, Jan Vesely, 6th - unequivocal bust
2013, Anthony Bennet, 1st - monumental bust

One thing that stands out is of the WABC taken in the draft in the last 15 years, only two were taken in the top half of the lottery - Kaman and Zeller. Kaman is a 1-time all star that had a long, solid career. It's still a little early close the book on Zeller. He wasn't a great pick, but as I mentioned above, that wasn't a very good draft and there hasn't been a single all star in the next 10 picks after him.

Of the BABC and international centers that are unequivocal busts, a LOT of them (10 to be exact - including 5 top 2 picks) were taken in the top half of the lottery.

Also of note, as the game has evolved fewer and fewer centers of any color or nationality are being taken in the lottery. The role of the traditional center has been marginalized by rule changes and changes in style of play.

Also, of note, Zach Collins isn't technically a center. He's a PF. He may play a little back up center over the course of his career, but his primary position will be PF. And, unlike a traditional low post center, he will provide the unique combination of floor spacing and rim protection that are desirable from big men in today's game.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
That's an interesting question and it depends on what you mean by "panned out". If you mean "became a perennial all star and first ballot Hall of Famer" you're going to have to go back a ways, but of you just mean someone who "wasn't a total bust that proved worthy of their draft position" it open it up to guys like Mason Plumlee and Chris Kaman (who are just two I happen to think of because they recently played for the Blazers).

The whole WABC as a bust thing is blow way out of proportion as there have actually been very few in the last 15 years for the very simple reason there have been a very tiny relative number of WABC taken in the lottery over that time span.

On the other hand, there have been a lot of BABC and international centers, both black and white, that have been selected in the lottery that have been total busts.

By my count, these are the only WABC take in the lottery since 2002:

2003, Chris Kaman, 6th - 1 time all star
2003, Nick Collison (really more of a PF), 12th - solid role player
2004, Robert Swift, 12th - unequivocal bust
2007, Spencer Hawes, 10th - marginal role player
2010, Cole Aldrich, 11th - margnal role player
2012, Meyers Leonard, 11th - unequivocal bust
2013, Cody Zeller, 4th - marginal role player
2013, Kelly Olynyk, 13th - solid role player
2015, Frank Kaminski, 9th - solid role player

That's a pretty small sample size, and most of those guys have been solid or marginal role players. The only unequivocal busts in that group are Robert Swift and Meyers Leonard. Zeller was a reach at 4th, but looking back on that draft, there weren't any future all stars taken after him in the lottery. Kind of hard to call a guy a bust when it was just an overall weak draft class.

During that same time frame, all of the following BABC and international centers have all been unequivocal busts:

2002, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, 5th - unequivocal bust
2003, Darko Milicic, 2nd - monumental bust
2003, Mike Sweetney, 9th - unequivocal bust
2004, Rafael Araujo, 8th - unequivocal bust
2005, Sean May, 13th - unequivocal bust
2006, Andrea Bargnani, 1st - monumental bust
2006, Shelden Williams, 5th - unequivocal bust
2006, Patrick O'Bryant, 9th - unequivocal bust
2006, Mohamed Sene, 10th - unequivocal bust
2006, Hilton Armstrong, 12th - unequivocal bust
2007, Greg Oden, 1st - monumental bust
2007, Yi Jianlian, 6th - unequivocal bust
2009, Hasheem Thabeet, 2nd - - monumental bust
2010, Epke Udoh, 6th - unequivocal bust
2011, Jan Vesely, 6th - unequivocal bust
2013, Anthony Bennet, 1st - monumental bust

One thing that stands out is of the WABC taken in the draft in the last 15 years, only two were taken in the top half of the lottery - Kaman and Zeller. Kaman is a 1-time all star that had a long, solid career. It's still a little early close the book on Zeller. He wasn't a great pick, but as I mentioned above, that wasn't a very good draft and there hasn't been a single all star in the next 10 picks after him.

Of the BABC and international centers that are unequivocal busts, a LOT of them (10 to be exact - including 5 top 2 picks) were taken in the top half of the lottery.

Also of note, as the game has evolved fewer and fewer centers of any color or nationality are being taken in the lottery. The role of the traditional center has been marginalized by rule changes and changes in style of play.

Also, of note, Zach Collins isn't technically a center. He's a PF. He may play a little back up center over the course of his career, but his primary position will be PF. And, unlike a traditional low post center, he will provide the unique combination of floor spacing and rim protection that are desirable from big men in today's game.

BNM
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Disappointing... Why did you buy into this? You shouldn't have wasted your time and intellect on such a stupid question that makes no difference...
 
dviss1 said:
Disappointing... Why did you buy into this? You shouldn't have wasted your time and intellect on such a stupid question that makes no difference...
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It's an interesting discussion. Why not take a deeper look?
 
dviss1 said:
You MFs in here comparing Centers based on skin tone are just acting stupid.. Plain and simple. Get off it....
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We're doing it because that seems to be the biggest objection to trading up and taking Zach Collins with the 10th pick. People who admit they haven't really watched him play are opposed to the pick for the sole reason that he's white. How's that for stupid? At least watch the guy play before you pass judgement.

Busts come in all skin tones and from many nations. That is the point I am trying to make to the narrow minded who are opposed to the Collins pick based on his race and place of birth.

BNM
 
Scalma said:
He explained in depth why it was stupid, I don't think he bought into anything.
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No he didn't. He said it was stupid because more BABCs have been busts. Not sure why we needed to compare them anyway. Skin tone isn't a perquisite to determine whether or not someone is a bust.
 
Scalma said:
I didn't forget, just thought he was more of a power forward. If we want to open it up to those guys, then I could include Kevin love as well :)
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Kaminsky's 6'11" and played exclusively at center in college. Kevin Love is 6'9"ish and has never been anything but a PF. Kaminsky is more of a center than Leonard or Olynyk.

Just my $.02. Carry on as you were.
 
dviss1 said:
No he didn't. He said it was stupid because more BABCs have been busts. Not sure why we needed to compare them anyway. Skin tone isn't a perquisite to determine whether or not someone is a bust.
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So then what did he buy into?

He was just using ignorant fans own logic to prove how stupid the whole thing is. I like it.
 
B-Roy said:
Zach is a power forward. I don't care if they want to play him at center. Eventually PF is his final position.
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I agree, and if he develops properly, that a win-win situation for Blazers, whether he plays next to Nurkic or we trade on of them, but lets hope they can play together, but most important, lets hope this kid develops properly
 
dviss1 said:
Disappointing... Why did you buy into this? You shouldn't have wasted your time and intellect on such a stupid question that makes no difference...
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It makes a difference to some and that's the perception I am trying to shoot down. Blanket statements like never draft a WABC in the lottery are just plain ignorant. Whether or not Zach Collins (or any other player, black, white, American or international) succeeds will be based on talent and effort, not skin color or country of birth.

I know you know that and I'm preaching to the choir when replying to you, but others here haven't yet figured that out.

BNM
 
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