Exclusive Welcome Zach Collins!

[Natebishop3]

Why? Why is this an "interesting discussion"?

I think it's a fucking stupid one.

So what's your reasoning for why there have been so few white big men All-Stars?

 

[Scalma]

Kaminsky's 6'11" and played exclusively at center in college. Kevin Love is 6'9"ish and has never been anything but a PF. Kaminsky is more of a center than Leonard or Olynyk.

Just my $.02. Carry on as you were.

Your two cents is wrong though. Kaminsky doesn't play center in the NBA.

 

[Jade Falcon]

One thing's for sure.....if Collins doesn't want to be bullied around in the paint, then he needs to bulk up.

Otherwise, he's just going to be Mason Plumlee 2.0.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Your two cents is wrong though. Kaminsky doesn't play center in the NBA.

82games.com says otherwise.

http://www.82games.com/1617/16CHA15.HTM#bypos
​

In that most common 5-man lineup, whom would you say is the center? Marvin Williams?

http://www.82games.com/1617/16CHA15.HTM#5man
​

 

[Boob-No-More]

No he didn't. He said it was stupid because more BABCs have been busts. Not sure why we needed to compare them anyway. Skin tone isn't a perquisite to determine whether or not someone is a bust.

That was exactly my point - and neither is country of birth. Yet those are the exact reasons some here are opposed to the Collins pick.

BNM

 

[Blazinaway]

One thing's for sure.....if Collins doesn't want to be bullied around in the paint, then he needs to bulk up.

Otherwise, he's just going to be Mason Plumlee 2.0.

I read a lot of these "bulk up" comments and I'd guess he weighs like 210, he does look light but he weighs 230 per reports I've seen - thats not bad at all. Yeah get stronger and maybe put on 10 or at the most 15 lbs of muscle, but if 230ish is correct he does really not have that much more to go - and with NBA trainers adding strength should not be too difficult

 

[Boob-No-More]

One thing's for sure.....if Collins doesn't want to be bullied around in the paint, then he needs to bulk up.

Otherwise, he's just going to be Mason Plumlee 2.0.

A longer Mason Plumlee, with 3" greater standing reach, a jump shot and low post moves that plays power forward. Or basically, not Mason Plumlee.

BNM

 

[B-Roy]

Besides the fact that he's white and tall, he has no similarities to Plums. Lmao

 

[BonesJones]

I can't believe people are knocking him because he played behind the best C in CBB, who was a Senior...

 

[BonesJones]

So many ignorant comparisons to white players.

Even MM isn't doing this shit. Collins is Meyers 2.0 AND Plumlee 2.0? FFS.

 

[Scalma]

82games.com says otherwise.

http://www.82games.com/1617/16CHA15.HTM#bypos
View attachment 14868​

In that most common 5-man lineup, whom would you say is the center? Marvin Williams?

http://www.82games.com/1617/16CHA15.HTM#5man
View attachment 14869​

Ok I'll take the L on Kaminsky not having played center. Still don't view him as one going forward.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Why? Why is this an "interesting discussion"?

I think it's a fucking stupid one.

I'm not even claiming it's interesting. I'm just trying to shoot down the Collins haters by pointing out that busts come in all colors and from many nations.

I agree it's stupid this is a thing, but the whole no WABC in the lottery mentality should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

I've made my point (or tried to) and will gladly drop the whole race thing. I'd much rather focus on Collins' skill set and how he fits in with this roster.

BNM

 

[Jade Falcon]

Jesus, you people....

I wasn't comparing Collin's skill to to that of Plumlee. I was comparing their size and bulk. My point being....Plumlee got bullied around in the paint routinely. And I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

All I'm saying is if he wants to be effective in this league as a big man in the paint, he needs to bulk up. Aldridge put on 41 lbs of muscle. Call him soft if you want, but he was REALLY soft before he bulked up.

I don't think Collins needs to be that drastic....just 20 to 30 lbs over the course of the year. Which sounds doable to me.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Fair enough. But some of what you say about Collins is untrue. He rebounded WELL against elite competition in the tourney. So it's not a "who knows" on his rebounding. You're making things up when you say "rebounding against players that are not children"...

I'm not sure how well does college rebounding numbers/impressions translate into the NBA.
Most of his competition were not future pros but 18-19 yr olds who are children compared to the grown men he will face in the NBA.

Rebounding is not an attribute like shooting, his success in that category depends on his rivals.
How many 7 foot centers are there in college? how many of them know how to box out like they should? how many of them are stronger than him? and we can go on and on with those questions.

Michael Beasley averaged 12.4 rebounds in college, yet in his best season in terms of rebounding he averaged 6.4 in 30mpg.

 

[SIeepwalker]

sigh, those discussions...

 

[Boob-No-More]

So many ignorant comparisons to white players.

Even MM isn't doing this shit. Collins is Meyers 2.0 AND Plumlee 2.0? FFS.

Yeah, pretty bizarre he's being compared to two players who could not be more different. Plums is a high energy, high BBIQ player who hasn't made a single 3-pointer in his entire NBA career and Meyers is a sloth that camps out at the 3-point line and has zero feel for the game. Fuck, if we could only put Plumlee's brain in Meyers' body, we really would have the next Sabonis.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

So what's your reasoning for why there have been so few white big men All-Stars?

That's the point. I literally don't give a shit. And realistically, no one should.

 

[chzbrgr]

Yeah, pretty bizarre he's being compared to two players who could not be more different. Plums is a high energy, high BBIQ player who hasn't made a single 3-pointer in his entire NBA career and Meyers is a sloth that camps out at the 3-point line and has zero feel for the game. Fuck, if we could only put Plumlee's brain in Meyers' body, we really would have the next Sabonis.

BNM

When you think about it tho he's like a combination of plums and meyers cause he's a high energy high BBIQ player who can shoot the three and block shots and rebound.

 

[Natebishop3]

You guys can act like it's not a relevant discussion, but the fact that there has only been a handful of white, American born, big men who have been All-Stars means that the odds are slim that you're going to draft a white, American born, big man who turns out to be an All-Star.

That's not to say it can't happen, or won't happen, but the odds are slim.

All that BNM's stats tell me is that it's bad to draft any big man in the lottery, regardless of color. If you draft a white big guy in the first round, odds are pretty good that you're gonna get a role player. That's totally fine, but if you're looking to make a splash, again, there has only been a handful of guys that have gone on to be star caliber players.

Simple facts -

Very few American born white guys are drafted in the first round at all.

Even fewer go on to be stars.

You can pretend like this is some kind of slight against them, but that's just the truth. So hopefully Collins is one of the handful that go on to be stars.

 

[dviss1]

I'm not even claiming it's interesting. I'm just trying to shoot down the Collins haters by pointing out that busts come in all colors and from many nations.

I agree it's stupid this is a thing, but the whole no WABC in the lottery mentality should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

I've made my point (or tried to) and will gladly drop the whole race thing. I'd much rather focus on Collins' skill set and how he fits in with this roster.

BNM

It wasn't you who said it was interesting. I was responding to @Natebishop3.

 

[dviss1]

You guys can act like it's not a relevant discussion, but the fact that there has only been a handful of white, American born, big men who have been All-Stars means that the odds are slim that you're going to draft a white, American born, big man who turns out to be an All-Star.

That's not to say it can't happen, or won't happen, but the odds are slim.

All that BNM's stats tell me is that it's bad to draft any big man in the lottery, regardless of color. If you draft a white big guy in the first round, odds are pretty good that you're gonna get a role player. That's totally fine, but if you're looking to make a splash, again, there has only been a handful of guys that have gone on to be star caliber players.

Simple facts -

Very few American born white guys are drafted in the first round at all.

Even fewer go on to be stars.

You can pretend like this is some kind of slight against them, but that's just the truth. So hopefully Collins is one of the handful that go on to be stars.

But if he were black you wouldn't bring it up. And it's been proven that there have been decidedly more busts that are black than white.

This is what makes the whole discussion STUPID.

For someone who claims that race doesn't matter, you sure talk about it a lot. If it were me saying those things about WABC I'm not sure it would go over so well...

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm not sure how well does college rebounding numbers/impressions translate into the NBA.
Most of his competition were not future pros but 18-19 yr olds who are children compared to the grown men he will face in the NBA.

Rebounding is not an attribute like shooting, his success in that category depends on his rivals.
How many 7 foot centers are there in college? how many of them know how to box out like they should? how many of them are stronger than him? and we can go on and on with those questions.

Michael Beasley averaged 12.4 rebounds in college, yet in his best season in terms of rebounding he averaged 6.4 in 30mpg.

Of course, it varies by individual, but in general, rebounding usually translates very well from one level to the next. Much more so than scoring, for example.

Of course, size helps, but rebounding is a lot about effort and players that "get after it" at one level usually bring that same intensity to the next level. If you watch Collins play, he pays with a lot of intensity and effort.

Regarding your question about 7-footers in college, Collins was a teammate of one of the biggest men in all of the NCAA, 7'1", 304 lb. Przemek Karnoski. They played in the same system against the same competition. Collins had a TRB% of 18.3 and Karnowski was at 13.6. That makes Collins an above average rebounder for his size/position and Karnowski a below average rebounder for his size position.

BNM

 

[Sinobas]

So who is the last white American born center that really panned out?

Who was the last person from Nebraska to be an all-star? Never draft anyone from Nebraska in the 1st round. No matter how good they are. How good they are, nor their skill matters. It's all about their race and where they come from.

 

[Natebishop3]

But if he were black you wouldn't bring it up. And it's been proven that there have been decidedly more busts that are black than white.

This is what makes the whole discussion STUPID.

For someone who claims that race doesn't matter, you sure talk about it a lot. If it were me saying those things about WABC I'm not sure it would go over so well...

There have been more black busts because there have been considerably more black players drafted. More players drafted means a higher chance for busts.

Why are so few white guys drafted at all? Are they not good enough? Why so few All-Stars? Not good enough?

 

[blue9]

Jesus, you people....

I wasn't comparing Collin's skill to to that of Plumlee. I was comparing their size and bulk. My point being....Plumlee got bullied around in the paint routinely. And I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

All I'm saying is if he wants to be effective in this league as a big man in the paint, he needs to bulk up. Aldridge put on 41 lbs of muscle. Call him soft if you want, but he was REALLY soft before he bulked up.

I don't think Collins needs to be that drastic....just 20 to 30 lbs over the course of the year. Which sounds doable to me.

Bulk is only one facet of a player's ability to not get bullied in the paint. Gobert has far less bulk than Plumlee, yet is one of the best defensive Cs in the league. Agility, positioning, and reach are more important than bulk.

 

[dviss1]

There have been more black busts because there have been considerably more black players drafted. More players drafted means a higher chance for busts.

Why are so few white guys drafted at all? Are they not good enough? Why so few All-Stars? Not good enough?

OK so since I HATE this discussion, I'm gonna bow out. It's stupid and I will no longer participate.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Dude played at Bishop Gorman. He's gonna be a stud.

 

[santeesioux]

Let's be honest, if his name was Zach Collinsson and he was from Sweden, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I was guilty of this yesterday too.

 

[dviss1]

Bulk is only one facet of a player's ability to not get bullied in the paint. Gobert has far less bulk than Plumlee, yet is one of the best defensive Cs in the league. Agility, positioning, and reach are more important than bulk.

That dame can body up and roll over....

 

[Natebishop3]

But if he were black you wouldn't bring it up. And it's been proven that there have been decidedly more busts that are black than white.

This is what makes the whole discussion STUPID.

For someone who claims that race doesn't matter, you sure talk about it a lot. If it were me saying those things about WABC I'm not sure it would go over so well...

I wasn't a fan of drafting anyone. Of any color. At any position. I'm not against drafting Collins, but I'm just saying that the odds of him being a star are not in his favor.