What are your beliefs on religion, god?

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Nobody claims it is fact. Your side misrepresents that truth. Of course it's disputable. There is just mountains of verifiable evidence for a Big Bang.

Wait a minute man! You claim there was no beginning yet you agree with Big Bang! That was the starting point of the universe. And I've clearly read in previous posts that you did believe there is nothing if you believe in the Big Bang. There was a point when all the matter of the universe was confined into a smaller area of nothingness.
 
You're saying that Exodus was written BY Moses? Why does he never refer to himself as "I"?

Because he is not god. It also points out that it was inspired by god and told in third person. Further evidence that Moses wasn't the author. Even if made up; it was intended to be written by god.
 
Wait a minute man! You claim there was no beginning yet you agree with Big Bang! That was the starting point of the universe. And I've clearly read in previous posts that you did believe there is nothing if you believe in the Big Bang. There was a point when all the matter of the universe was confined into a smaller area of nothingness.

Question: If time as we know it actually began WITH the Big Bang (not saying this is demonstrably true, just hypothetically speaking), was there ever a "time" at which the universe didn't exist?
 
Question: If time as we know it actually began WITH the Big Bang (not saying this is demonstrably true, just hypothetically speaking), was there ever a "time" at which the universe didn't exist?

Trixster!!!!!! Your fishing line just broke brother! LOL

The Universe had a "Matter, Time and Space" start time; because that can be recorded. But as I already said, God is absent of this construct; so he existed eternally. Therefor when the universe didn't exist; time didn't exist.
 
Because he is not god. It also points out that it was inspired by god and told in third person. Further evidence that Moses wasn't the author. Even if made up; it was intended to be written by god.

Exactly. So it wasn't, in fact, written by a former slave? Or a sheepherder?

It's been a long time since my high school Scripture classes, but if I recall correctly, the OT was passed on via oral history for generations before it was ever transcribed. Why must we assume that illiterate sheepherders were the only ones responsible? The ancient Hebrews had scholars, leaders, and wise men -- they weren't all the prehistorical equivalents of rural hicks.

Even the NT was, in general, written down LONG after the events they describe took place. Are you telling me that, objectively speaking, you find it inconceivable that whoever did write them down might have heard news from distant places at one point or another? If there are specific examples that you'd like to point out here, please do.
 
Wait a minute man! You claim there was no beginning yet you agree with Big Bang! That was the starting point of the universe. And I've clearly read in previous posts that you did believe there is nothing if you believe in the Big Bang. There was a point when all the matter of the universe was confined into a smaller area of nothingness.

I believe what the evidence shows. There's no reason my belief can't evolve as the evidence becomes more refined. What is certain is the evidence doesn't show a Creator of any kind.
 
Exactly. So it wasn't, in fact, written by a former slave? Or a sheepherder?

It's been a long time since my high school Scripture classes, but if I recall correctly, the OT was passed on via oral history for generations before it was ever transcribed. Why must we assume that illiterate sheepherders were the only ones responsible? The ancient Hebrews had scholars, leaders, and wise men -- they weren't all the prehistorical equivalents of rural hicks.

Even the NT was, in general, written down LONG after the events they describe took place. Are you telling me that, objectively speaking, you find it inconceivable that whoever did write them down might have heard news from distant places at one point or another? If there are specific examples that you'd like to point out here, please do.

Tell me another society that had historical evidence like that of the bible when it was created?
 
The Universe had a "Matter, Time and Space" start time; because that can be recorded. But as I already said, God is absent of this construct; so he existed eternally. Therefor when the universe didn't exist; time didn't exist.

Got it. So, if time actually began WITH the Big Bang, then the universe has existed for ALL of time?
 
I believe what the evidence shows. There's no reason my belief can't evolve as the evidence becomes more refined. What is certain is the evidence doesn't show a Creator of any kind.

But you are flip flopping in this thread alone. First you say there is no such thing as nothingness, then explained that mass has always existed, then adopted te Big Bang; which contradicts your statement that there is no such thing as nothingness.

So when all the mass in the universe was confined into a dense mass; what was the area around that mass?
 
The sumerians recorded their history 2500 years before Christ.

They sure did and only foretold about the surrounding area in which they resided. There is no summarian historical evidence that talked about civilizations thousands of miles away from their area and hundreds of years before.
 
But you are flip flopping in this thread alone. First you say there is no such thing as nothingness, then explained that mass has always existed, then adopted te Big Bang; which contradicts your statement that there is no such thing as nothingness.

So when all the mass in the universe was confined into a dense mass; what was the area around that mass?

http://www.space.com/13347-big-bang-origins-universe-birth.html

Traditional Big Bang theory posits that our universe began with a singularity — a point of infinite density and temperature whose nature is difficult for our minds to grasp. However, this may not accurately reflect reality, researchers say, because the singularity idea is based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.

"The problem is, there's no reason whatsoever to believe general relativity in that regime," said Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at Caltech. "It's going to be wrong, because it doesn't take into account quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics is certainly going to be important once you get to that place in the history of the universe."

So the very beginning of the universe remains pretty murky. Scientists think they can pick the story up at about 10 to the minus 36 seconds — one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second — after the Big Bang.
 
They sure did and only foretold about the surrounding area in which they resided. There is no summarian historical evidence that talked about civilizations thousands of miles away from their area and hundreds of years before.

You're going to need to get specific -- what references, exactly, do you find so amazing in the Bible?
 
http://www.space.com/13347-big-bang-origins-universe-birth.html

Traditional Big Bang theory posits that our universe began with a singularity — a point of infinite density and temperature whose nature is difficult for our minds to grasp. However, this may not accurately reflect reality, researchers say, because the singularity idea is based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.

"The problem is, there's no reason whatsoever to believe general relativity in that regime," said Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at Caltech. "It's going to be wrong, because it doesn't take into account quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics is certainly going to be important once you get to that place in the history of the universe."

So the very beginning of the universe remains pretty murky. Scientists think they can pick the story up at about 10 to the minus 36 seconds — one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second — after the Big Bang.

Reason #274 to love good scientists: when they are uncertain about something, they say so.
 
http://www.space.com/13347-big-bang-origins-universe-birth.html

Traditional Big Bang theory posits that our universe began with a singularity — a point of infinite density and temperature whose nature is difficult for our minds to grasp. However, this may not accurately reflect reality, researchers say, because the singularity idea is based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.

"The problem is, there's no reason whatsoever to believe general relativity in that regime," said Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at Caltech. "It's going to be wrong, because it doesn't take into account quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics is certainly going to be important once you get to that place in the history of the universe."

So the very beginning of the universe remains pretty murky. Scientists think they can pick the story up at about 10 to the minus 36 seconds — one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second — after the Big Bang.

Well that makes me feel much better. Reading this thread; there was a lot of certainty. Guess that's not the case eh?
 
Unless they debate with Christians! :)

Not so! I've always acknowledged the questions for which science has no answers. Science is a wonderful tool, but there are countless important questions that it can't even touch.
 
Not so! I've always acknowledged the questions for which science has no answers. Science is a wonderful tool, but there are countless important questions that it can't even touch.

Oops yes you have; but read this thread and tell me the others see this with your light.
 
Well that makes me feel much better. Reading this thread; there was a lot of certainty. Guess that's not the case eh?

This is what you never seem to want to accept -- science is fine with uncertainty. Science LOVES uncertainty! True science -- GOOD science -- would never invent a constant, unchangeable story just to try and explain away the unknown, no matter how comforting that story may be.
 
Not so! I've always acknowledged the questions for which science has no answers. Science is a wonderful tool, but there are countless important questions that it can't even touch.


disagree. any question reduces to a scientific one if stated specifically enough. questions are only unscientific when they are vague.
 
This is what you never seem to want to accept -- science is fine with uncertainty. Science LOVES uncertainty! True science -- GOOD science -- would never invent a constant, unchangeable story just to try and explain away the unknown, no matter how comforting that story may be.

Okay, so wouldn't it be "What you love" to accept the possibility that there is a God? I mean if you believe that Science loves uncertainty, then believing in God would apply yes?
 
disagree. any question reduces to a scientific one if stated specifically enough. questions are only unscientific when they are vague.

Oh? What's the best rock song of all time, scientifically speaking?
 
disagree. any question reduces to a scientific one if stated specifically enough. questions are only unscientific when they are vague.

Like matter always existed without empirical evidence that supports this theory? Or maybe that Nothingness cannot exist? Or maybe nothingness can't somehow produce something like mass?
 
Okay, so wouldn't it be "What you love" to accept the possibility that there is a God? I mean if you believe that Science loves uncertainty, then believing in God would apply yes?

The primary appeal of religion is that it has (or CLAIMS to have) answers for all of these questions! What happened at the beginning of the universe? God! What happens after we die? God! Why do people suffer? God! Ok no, not that one... ;) But you see my point? Religion is attractive precisely BECAUSE it seems to eliminate uncertainties.
 
You're going to need to get specific -- what references, exactly, do you find so amazing in the Bible?

Here is something I just popped up via google.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/bible_historical_evidence.html

The Testimony of History
External evidence from both archaeology and non-Christian writers confirms that the Bible--both Old and New Testaments--is a trustworthy historical document. Archaeologist Joseph Free has said that "Archaeology has confirmed countless passages which had been rejected by critics as unhistorical or contrary to known facts." [1] Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Gluek confidently said that "It...may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible." [2] Christian apologist Josh McDowell tells us that "After personally trying to shatter the historicity and validity of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that they are historically trustworthy." [3]

Some scholars once said that Moses couldn't have written the first five books of the Bible (as the Bible says) because writing was largely unknown in his day. Then, archaeology proved otherwise by the discovery of many other written codes of the period: the code of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860), and the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.).

Critics used to say that the biblical description of the Hittite Empire was wrong because the Hittite Empire (they thought) didn't even exist! Then archaeologists discovered the Hittite capital in 1906 and discovered that the Hittite's were actually a very vast and prominent civilization. Archaeological and linguistic evidence is increasingly pointing to a sixth-century B.C. date for the book of Daniel, in spite of the many critics who attempt to late-date Daniel and make it a prophecy after the detailed events it predicts.

For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points out that within 110 years of Christ's crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity." [4] Sir William Ramsey, one of the greatest archeologists to ever live, demonstrated that Luke made no mistakes in references to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands.

Liberal scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence. The Gospel's portrayals of the temple, Pilate's court, Jesus' crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed. The list could go on and on. [See Section Archaeology and The Bible]

The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document. Since the Bible can be trusted in areas that we can check (its history), then this gives us a reason to trust it in areas that we cannot check (its claims for inspiration).
 

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