What are your beliefs on religion, god?

[SlyPokerDog]

1-2 Walking down the street, Jesus saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked, “Rabbi, who sinned: this man or his parents, causing him to be born blind?”

3-5 Jesus said, “You’re asking the wrong question. You’re looking for someone to blame. There is no such cause-effect here. Look instead for what God can do. We need to be energetically at work for the One who sent me here, working while the sun shines. When night falls, the workday is over. For as long as I am in the world, there is plenty of light. I am the world’s Light.”

6-7 He said this and then spit in the dust, made a clay paste with the saliva, rubbed the paste on the blind man’s eyes, and said, “Go, wash at the Pool of Siloam” (Siloam means “Sent”). The man went and washed—and saw.

8 Soon the town was buzzing. His relatives and those who year after year had seen him as a blind man begging were saying, “Why, isn’t this the man we knew, who sat here and begged?”

9 Others said, “It’s him all right!”

But others objected, “It’s not the same man at all. It just looks like him.”

He said, “It’s me, the very one.”

10 They said, “How did your eyes get opened?”

11 “A man named Jesus made a paste and rubbed it on my eyes and told me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ I did what he said. When I washed, I saw.”

12 “So where is he?”

“I don’t know.”

13-15 They marched the man to the Pharisees. This day when Jesus made the paste and healed his blindness was the Sabbath. The Pharisees grilled him again on how he had come to see. He said, “He put a clay paste on my eyes, and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “Obviously, this man can’t be from God. He doesn’t keep the Sabbath.”

Others countered, “How can a bad man do miraculous, God-revealing things like this?” There was a split in their ranks.

17 They came back at the blind man, “You’re the expert. He opened your eyes. What do you say about him?”

He said, “He is a prophet.”

18-19 The Jews didn’t believe it, didn’t believe the man was blind to begin with. So they called the parents of the man now bright-eyed with sight. They asked them, “Is this your son, the one you say was born blind? So how is it that he now sees?”

20-23 His parents said, “We know he is our son, and we know he was born blind. But we don’t know how he came to see—haven’t a clue about who opened his eyes. Why don’t you ask him? He’s a grown man and can speak for himself.” (His parents were talking like this because they were intimidated by the Jewish leaders, who had already decided that anyone who took a stand that this was the Messiah would be kicked out of the meeting place. That’s why his parents said, “Ask him. He’s a grown man.”)

24 They called the man back a second time—the man who had been blind—and told him, “Give credit to God. We know this man is an impostor.”

25 He replied, “I know nothing about that one way or the other. But I know one thing for sure: I was blind . . . I now see.”

Pictures or it never happened.

 

[magnifier661]

Pictures or it never happened.

 

[ABM]

Pictures or it never happened.

Relatively speaking, that's what the Pharisees effectively maintained, as well.

Ahh, well..........

 

[PapaG]

He is a Golden God!!

 

[Further]

Would you think a prayer could be answered if you don't believe it can? Sometimes the fact that prayer isn't working has more to do with the person not believing their prayer could be answered.

If I believe I can fly or if I don't believe I can fly, either way if I step off a cliff I'm going to be a bloody mess at the bottom. I don't believe in prayer, but that's just because I don't believe in god. My honest opinion, and. I'm sorry if it offends anyone, is that you are tricking yourself into believing that prayer works or that god has saved you. You, by choosing to take a different view of your life and change your actions can save yourself.

A quick story
I have had a Bar Mitzvah and went to synagogue weekly growing up. My parents, grandparents, and siblings all proudly call themselves Jewish. Two years ago I decided to finally tell my mom that I was skipping synagogue from here on. She asked why, and I responded that I don't believe in god. My mom responded "no one does, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy a good story and meet nice people." All my life I thought my parents believed, but when I explored the topic I came to find out we were all really atheist. Just some chose the label Jew and some Atheist.

I don't really know why I told that story other then to show that being a non-believer is in my blood. And there is nothing at this point short of a bonafide miracle. Like something Jesus or Penn and Teller could do.

I respect that you are atheist, as I do with anyone else in here. I believe in God so I am at the other end of the spectrum. I believe that there is a God that sits at a golden thrown. I don't believe he needs us to believe in him or worship him. I choose to worship him because I feel blessed to be in the position I am in a world that is filled with beauty.

I respect your freedom to have your own beliefs. I would never presume to tell anyone what they should believe. However, I do wish more people on their own would give up religion because I think much more positive progress in the world would happen if science and mathematics were more core to everyone's beliefs.

There was this one Acid trip I had where I was able to taste color, smell sounds and see the vibrations of atoms. It really put perception of just how amazing the universe really is. We are the universe just as importantly as a star. If we defy the laws of the universe; I believe the universe would fail. Every little particle to the most amazing complex organism has their part in this Universe.

I've had very similar trips. Some other time, one of us should start a thread of favorite trips of all times. I've had some killer ones.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think you believe you'll be a bloody mess at the bottom.

 

[magnifier661]

God I wasn't knocking you and your disbelief man. I'm just saying how can you think prayer can help unless you believe in a god to pray to.

As for believing you can fly and being a bloody mess. That's true; but if god really intended us to fly we would have wings. But men did believe they can fly and designed machines to make it a reality. I guess the real moral of the story is when you believe you can; you really can do what many consider impossible.

There are stories of little woman being able to pick up the back of a car because their child was under it. Under normal circumstances a little woman would never accomplish it; but in this circumstance they could.

Humans are much stronger than many believe. Our minds are extremely powerful and once we can focus our energy; we can overcome, solve or advanced through things many thought impossible.

Tell humanity 100 years ago that man would be able to travel in space and see what they tell you.

Got a little off topic! Lol

Yeah man I've had some insane trips. My last one; I saw my past, future and present all showing itself at the same time. It's a trip man!

 

[VanillaGorilla]

No one can prove God doesn't exist. However, God has proved to me time and time again that He does exist. I'm overwhelmingly sticking with the latter. Without a doubt in my mind, I know that I was blind, but now I see. Which, by the way, reminds me of a passage of Scripture from John 9:1-25 (The Message translation):



Not that I have to (or even can) go all proving myself to an internet message board, but I didn't come to Christ because I needed some type of crutch, or otherwise. I came to Him because I came to the utter and stark realization that I was a sinner in need of a Savior. That was over 20 years ago, and I have never regretted that decision.....not even once.

Go Blazers!!

You realized you were a sinner and needed a crutch. Your "Savior" is your crutch.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

God I wasn't knocking you and your disbelief man. I'm just saying how can you think prayer can help unless you believe in a god to pray to.

As for believing you can fly and being a bloody mess. That's true; but if god really intended us to fly we would have wings. But men did believe they can fly and designed machines to make it a reality. I guess the real moral of the story is when you believe you can; you really can do what many consider impossible.

There are stories of little woman being able to pick up the back of a car because their child was under it. Under normal circumstances a little woman would never accomplish it; but in this circumstance they could.

Humans are much stronger than many believe. Our minds are extremely powerful and once we can focus our energy; we can overcome, solve or advanced through things many thought impossible.

Tell humanity 100 years ago that man would be able to travel in space and see what they tell you.

Got a little off topic! Lol

Yeah man I've had some insane trips. My last one; I saw my past, future and present all showing itself at the same time. It's a trip man!

Ya think?

but if god really intended us to fly we would have wings.

^That flew in out of nowhere.

 

[Further]

God I wasn't knocking you and your disbelief man. I'm just saying how can you think prayer can help unless you believe in a god to pray to.

As for believing you can fly and being a bloody mess. That's true; but if god really intended us to fly we would have wings. But men did believe they can fly and designed machines to make it a reality. I guess the real moral of the story is when you believe you can; you really can do what many consider impossible.

There are stories of little woman being able to pick up the back of a car because their child was under it. Under normal circumstances a little woman would never accomplish it; but in this circumstance they could.

Humans are much stronger than many believe. Our minds are extremely powerful and once we can focus our energy; we can overcome, solve or advanced through things many thought impossible.

Tell humanity 100 years ago that man would be able to travel in space and see what they tell you.

Got a little off topic! Lol

Yeah man I've had some insane trips. My last one; I saw my past, future and present all showing itself at the same time. It's a trip man!

There are scientific reasons behind the mother lifting the car, and those reasons are the most beautiful inspiring things In my life. Science is amazing, both what is known, and what is unknown. The exploration of truth. My issue with religion is that these wonderful explorations into science are often obscured or deviated from in order to assign a religious or spiritual cause. ie, the mother lifting the car was a miracle, a gift from god, Gaya showing her strength, Jesus working through the mom.

When those alternative reasons are adequate, reason and scientific endeavor is hindered. I'm not saying that you, or any particular person sees the mother this way. I'm not even saying that its not your right and that everyone deserves the respect to have their own views. I'm just saying that I think the world would be better off with less mysticism.

 

[Further]

By the way mags,I just repped you for being the one to bring acid trips into the discussion. A lot can be learned through the introspection inspired by tripping.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

God is something that can't really be proved or disproved. I hate it when people who believe in a religion think that people who don't believe in their religion are morons and vice versa. Just because someone believes something differently than you (whether that be christianity, judism, islam, hindu, or just plain not believing) doesn't make them dumb or mean they are going to hell because they don't believe what you do.

So to those who believe, keep on believing. But if I choose to not believe in some of your teachings, don't judge me or look down upon me as I've experienced MANY churches and church-goers do. It's like ok...I drink alcohol. Don't act like I'm a hoodlum because I drink. In a lot of cases the person judging me for drinking alcohol was an alcoholic before they became "saved."

True story. One of my best friends growing up was the son of a pastor. I went to a church camp with him when we were 15. We got to the camp before any other kids, so we found a cabin, put our stuff in it, changed into shorts and went to the gym to play basketball. 30 minutes later, people chase us down and say we need to move to another cabin since we put our stuff in a girls cabin (cabins were not identified or anything, so we just picked the cabin we wanted since we had never been to that camp before). So we go back, get our stuff and move to another cabin. Later that night, I notice I'm missing my jacket and we realize I must have left it in the previous cabin. So we go to the girls cabin and I see my jacket inside, I ask for it without stepping inside of the cabin, and receive the jacket. the next morning my buddy and I get pulled aside and get in trouble for going to the girls cabin. A "leader" of the camp tells us we have bad attitudes and are going down the wrong path. If we aren't careful we will be whipped by chains and hit with baseball bats in a dark alley and the only thing that can save us is Jesus.

Funny thing is I've never done anything "bad" and I pretty much was a great kid growing up.

The truth is, no one will know if there is a God or not until you die. And if there is a God, he is going to judge people for what they have done, we shouldn't be the ones to judge people for what they believe in, His judgement would be the only one that mattered anyways.

/rant

 

[crowTrobot]

When those alternative reasons are adequate, reason and scientific endeavor is hindered. I'm not saying that you, or any particular person sees the mother this way. I'm not even saying that its not your right and that everyone deserves the respect to have their own views. I'm just saying that I think the world would be better off with less mysticism.

can't have it both ways. the convention that everyone's unscientific religious beliefs deserve 'respect' is exactly WHY they are still hindering scientific endeavor in these enlightened times.

sure people have the right to believe whatever they want. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked for beliefs that are objectively false.

 

[ABM]

....sure people have the right to believe whatever they want. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked for beliefs that are objectively false.

One thing's for certain.....my beliefs (in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit) aren't objectively false.

 

[crowTrobot]

God is something that can't really be proved or disproved. I hate it when people who believe in a religion think that people who don't believe in their religion are morons and vice versa. Just because someone believes something differently than you (whether that be christianity, judism, islam, hindu, or just plain not believing) doesn't make them dumb or mean they are going to hell because they don't believe what you do.

you were making sense up until the 'doesn't mean people who don't believe what you do are going to hell part'. obviously that belief is a prerequisite of certain religions.

The truth is, no one will know if there is a God or not until you die.

if there's no god or afterlife it's going to be hard to know that after you die

 

[Further]

can't have it both ways. the convention that everyone's unscientific religious beliefs deserve 'respect' is exactly WHY they are still hindering scientific endeavor in these enlightened times.

sure people have the right to believe whatever they want. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked for beliefs that are objectively false.

Mocking in my experience, is rarely an efficient means to ones desired ends. Demonstrating verifiable links repeatedly is more likely to eventually work than mockery. For example, explaining fossil records, DNA, plate tectonics and so forth are more likely to convince people (over time) that the earth is more than 6000 years old, than calling people idiots. If we mock, then we are asses, and who would want to side with asses?

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

you were making sense up until the 'doesn't mean people who don't believe what you do are going to hell part'. obviously that belief is a prerequisite of certain religions.



if there's no god or afterlife it's going to be hard to know that after you die

They can believe the person is going to hell, but can they prove it? If you can't prove it....why judge someone and tell them they are going to hell for their sins?

Yes, if there is no god or afterlife, it's a moot point. Who knows what happens though? What if you die and the Jehovah's witnesses were right? They could be, you don't know. Hindu's? Maybe they are right. Won't know until you die.

 

[Further]

One thing's for certain.....my beliefs (in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit) aren't objectively false.

Completely true ABM. I can say, as in my last post that the age of the earth can be objectively determined to be true or false, but not the existence of God, the Holy Spirit or Christ.

 

[crowTrobot]

One thing's for certain.....my beliefs (in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit) aren't objectively false.

well.. seen through the lense of science/anthropology they effectively are

 

[ABM]

well.. seen through the lense of science/anthropology they effectively are

Well, 'effectively' effectively translates to 'subjectively'. That said, if there truly were solid evidences that God doesn't exist, then, well........there aren't any. Hence, man's finite mind is left to none other than supposition, speculation, and subjectivity.

 

[Further]

well.. seen through the lense of science/anthropology they effectively are

Not really since in science to call something false you need to be able to disprove it. There are no experiments that can be set up to test the hypothesis that god (or Christ, or Holy Ghost) does not exist. Since we can not prove it, it is not as seen through the lens of science objectively false.

 

[crowTrobot]

Completely true ABM. I can say, as in my last post that the age of the earth can be objectively determined to be true or false, but not the existence of God, the Holy Spirit or Christ.

that's a really simplistic, limiting view of science. science deals with questions in terms of probabilities, not absolutes. to say something is objectively false just means the probability of it being false is effectively, not actually 100%.

it's trivial to show that the tenets of christianity are contradicted by many facets of science and originated in typical human mythology, and are effectively just as statistically likely to be false as the earth is statistically likely to be older than 6000 years.

 

[ABM]

that's a really simplistic, limiting view of science. science deals with questions in terms of probabilities, not absolutes. to say something is objectively false just means the probability of it being false is effectively, not actually 100%.

it's trivial to show that the tenets of christianity are contradicted by many facets of science and originated in typical human mythology, and are effectively just as statistically likely to be false as the earth is statistically likely to be older than 6000 years.

Peace, man.

 

[Further]

Science deals with the measurable. The existence of god is not measurable, so it is not up to science to prove or disprove.

If I'm wrong, what are the statistics that you talk about that can be used to prove/disprove god?

 

[crowTrobot]

There are no experiments that can be set up to test the hypothesis that god (or Christ, or Holy Ghost) does not exist.

there are no experiments to test the hypothesis that god did not create an earth that looks 4.5 billion years old 6000 years ago. that type of thinking is just a cop out - pandering to religion.

the exact same type of science that points to an old earth points to the tenets of christianity being false. there is no difference.

 

[Further]

...

 

[Further]

there are no experiments to test the hypothesis that god did not create an earth that looks 4.5 billion years old 6000 years ago. that type of thinking is just a cop out - pandering to religion.

the exact same type of science that points to an old earth points to the tenets of christianity being false. there is no difference.

It shows only what it shows.

 

[Further]

the exact same type of science that points to an old earth points to the tenets of christianity being false. there is no difference.

So I do think you could have a point if you talk about proving/disproving a particular religion being right, since science can show certain aspects of that religion to be false (age of earth). However, ABM was talking about god, Christ and the Holy Ghost, none of which can be disproven. Religion is not the same as god.

 

[crowTrobot]

Science deals with the measurable. The existence of god is not measurable, so it is not up to science to prove or disprove.

i'm not referring to a vague generic notion of god, just the support that holds up the tenets of christianity.

things like the origin of yahweh being traceable in mythology, dubious origin of the gospels and other key books, historical (and current) unreliability of reports of miracles etc. does not paint a pretty picture for christianity in the same way formation of strata, continental drift, radiocarbon dating etc. does not for a 6000 year old earth.

 

[crowTrobot]

So I do think you could have a point if you talk about proving/disproving a particular religion being right, since science can show certain aspects of that religion to be false (age of earth). However, ABM was talking about god, Christ and the Holy Ghost, none of which can be disproven. Religion is not the same as god.

the existence of yahweh/christ/holy ghost are specific tenets of christianity. they can be disproven in the same way the easter bunny, santa, or russell's teapot can.

i agree a generic/vague/deistic notion of god can't be disproven, pretty much by definition. obviously that's not what ABM is talking about, though.