What does Greg Oden have to do...

[andalusian]

Take a bus. Baby.

 

[Wheels]

I want the guy to stay healthy, first and foremost, but I think he will have to make at least two or three All-Star appearances and play at a consistently high level to soften the blow. Championships are a difficult thing to obtain, especially now that the super friends have joined forces in Miami, and there's a good chance that neither Oden nor Durant will win one in their careers. We cannot gauge the Oden/Durant debate on championships, because we have no idea how good this team would have been with Durant instead of Oden.

While I agree we wont be able to compare the two on championships.. for me honestly winning a title with Oden will for sure Erase any heartbreak I have in this.

 

[MickZagger]

topics are oh so fresh the 10,000th time they're brought up

STOMP

Your always quick to start new topics...

 

[Masbee]

In your eyes to ease the pain of selecting him over Durant?

His ceiling isn't what Durant is doing now at age 21. But if he can develop into a legit low-post threat and grab 12/13 rebs a game it'll soften the blow of the 2007 Draft. Oh, and staying healthy, right?

All he has to do is stay on the court and play.

Durant and his "MVP" season: Win Shares per 48: .238
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html


Oden the "Bust" last season before he went down: Win Share per 48: .214
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odengr01.html

Look at it this way, Ben Wallace, a DPOY who was a HUGE liability on the offensive end, still had a positive impact on his team during his prime. In 02-03 his Win Shares were 11.6. Durant's were 16 last season.

I think Oden will be close to as impactful on defense as Wallace, and be a solid contributor on the offensive end. If he can stay on the court and play 70+ games, he could have 12 to 16 Win Shares.

Pretty much, Oden as he was last season, was close to having the impact on a game as Durant, who has 236 NBA games under his belt. Durant has to keep improving his game pretty significantly to run away from what Oden will achieve.

 

[BGrantFan]

All he has to do is stay on the court and play.

Durant and his "MVP" season: Win Shares per 48: .238
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html


Oden the "Bust" last season before he went down: Win Share per 48: .214
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odengr01.html

Oh come on now. Durant's overall WS was 16.1. LeBron James' was 18.5, but on .299/48.

The per/48 stat on that is useless. I'm not saying that Oden is at all bad, but using per/48 WS numbers for Durant as a negative is ridiculous. It's the overall number that matters the most with that stat. Kobe Bryant's career high is .224/48. Are you going to tell me that Oden is nearly the player that Bryant was in his best per/48 season?

 

[BGrantFan]

Kobe Bryant's per/48 WS during his MVP season was .208. Please tell me, Masbee, why this is such an important statistic?

 

[Masbee]

I want the guy to stay healthy, first and foremost, but I think he will have to make at least two or three All-Star appearances and play at a consistently high level to soften the blow. Championships are a difficult thing to obtain, especially now that the super friends have joined forces in Miami, and there's a good chance that neither Oden nor Durant will win one in their careers. We cannot gauge the Oden/Durant debate on championships, because we have no idea how good this team would have been with Durant instead of Oden.

Not good enough. It would have required trading Roy, or Aldridge and a whole host of goodies, for an All-Star big.

 

[Masbee]

Oh come on now. Durant's overall WS was 16.1. LeBron James' was 18.5, but on .299/48.

The per/48 stat on that is useless. I'm not saying that Oden is at all bad, but using per/48 WS numbers for Durant as a negative is ridiculous. It's the overall number that matters the most with that stat. Kobe Bryant's career high is .224/48. Are you going to tell me that Oden is nearly the player that Bryant was in his best per/48 season?

I am not claiming Durant's WS per/48 is a negative. I think he had a great season.

As for Kobe, I think he has now become one of the most overrated players of our time. Without a dominant big, Kobe couldn't do shit. Couldn't even make the playoffs one year. So, yeah, I think those numbers do indicate that Kobe was a very good player, but never the most "dominant".

 

[BGrantFan]

I am not claiming Durant's WS per/48 is a negative. I think he had a great season.

OK then. I think Oden would have had a great season had he played more than 21 games. As it is, prorated, his overall WS is about 8.5 had he played 82 games, compared to Durant's 16.1. Oden's foul troubles are still a problem, healthy or otherwise.

 

[Masbee]

Kobe Bryant's per/48 WS during his MVP season was .208. Please tell me, Masbee, why this is such an important statistic?

Kobe should have been co-MVP......

of his team. Gasol was as important as Kobe for that team's success. Without Gasol, Kobe wouldn't have even been in the running for MVP with the year he had.

 

[BGrantFan]

Kobe should have been co-MVP......

of his team. Gasol was as important as Kobe for that team's success. Without Gasol, Kobe wouldn't have even been in the running for MVP with the year he had.

So, who is Durant's co-MVP on his own team? I just don't see WS/48 as a solid statistic in terms of comparing players.

Also, Kobe Bryant went 28ppg/6rpg/5.5apg/2spg on a 57-win team, and that wasn't nearly the season he had in either 2005-06 or 2006-07.

 

[Minstrel]

So, who is Durant's co-MVP on his own team? I just don't see WS/48 as a solid statistic in terms of comparing players.

Like PER, it's not a good value comparison metric for players who played very dissimilar minutes, but I don't think anyone is claiming Oden had remotely as valuable a season as Durant. What these types of metrics do show is that Oden may have had as much impact as Durant for every minute played.

That is meaningless if A. Oden doesn't stay healthy and B. Oden doesn't cut down his fouls somewhat. But it's useful information to know that Oden may have been as good a player, even if not as valuable (you have to play a lot, in addition to being good, to be valuable).

It means that IF those two things happen (I'm not predicting, here, whether they will or not), the gap between Durant and Oden may not be very wide at all. Right now, in addition to playing time woes, the perception is that Oden is nowhere near as good as Durant. That perception may be wrong.

 

[STOMP]

Your always quick to start new topics...

Bringing up some dead horse we've kicked the hell out of 10,000 times is commendable in your eyes... not surprising. Maybe we should review the 2006 draft again and who said what... I think that would be stupid and boring as we've covered that material enough but everyone has an opinion

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

Bringing up some dead horse we've kicked the hell out of 10,000 times is commendable in your eyes... not surprising. Maybe we should review the 2006 draft again and who said what... I think that would be stupid and boring as we've covered that material enough but everyone has an opinion

STOMP

lol your predictable with the 2006 draft stuff.

I don't want to talk about Oden vs. Durant anymore either. This isn't the first time though you've called out people for what they start as a topic. For someone who doesn't start topics yourself I find it funny how you jump on everyone else.

 

[BGrantFan]

but I don't think anyone is claiming Oden had remotely as valuable a season as Durant. .

I think Masbee was trying to make that argument. He hasn't responded to the overall impact point that I first brought up, and that you now seem to be seconding.

 

[BGrantFan]

lol your predictable with the 2006 draft stuff.

I don't want to talk about Oden vs. Durant anymore either. This isn't the first time though you've called out people for what they start as a topic. For someone who doesn't start topics yourself I find it funny how you jump on everyone else.

Watch out, Zags. Next thing you know, STOMP will PM you multiple times to tell you he is ignoring you! It's because he doesn't care! lol

 

[BlazerWookee]

In your eyes to ease the pain of selecting him over Durant?

His ceiling isn't what Durant is doing now at age 21. But if he can develop into a legit low-post threat and grab 12/13 rebs a game it'll soften the blow of the 2007 Draft. Oh, and staying healthy, right?

No pain to ease at all. Greg Oden made LaMarcus Aldridge a 4, which made Zach Randolph completely expendable. Durant would have made LMA a 5, and we wouldn't have been able to move Randolph in an attempted salary dump. It was the right choice to make, period.

EDIT: Oh, and his ceiling most certainly is higher than what Durant is doing now. The chances of him reaching that ceiling have diminished significantly, but the ceiling isn't any lower. Durant will win multiple scoring titles (and probably good-guy awards aplenty), but Oden will win multiple rings.

 

[BGrantFan]

Durant will win multiple scoring titles (and probably good-guy awards aplenty), but Oden will win multiple rings.

I hope you're right, but that is a bold prediction.

 

[Minstrel]

I think Masbee was trying to make that argument. He hasn't responded to the overall impact point that I first brought up, and that you now seem to be seconding.

He seemed to be making a per-minute argument to me, not an overall season impact argument. But Masbee can speak for himself, of course. Just explaining why I said that no one was arguing that Oden had as valuable a season as Durant.

 

[BGrantFan]

He seemed to be making a per-minute argument to me, not an overall season impact argument. But Masbee can speak for himself, of course. Just explaining why I said that no one was arguing that Oden had as valuable a season as Durant.

I think that Masbee was trying to make that point. My bad, if incorrect, but I found his use of WS/48 amusing in terms of a comparative statistic.

 

[STOMP]

lol your predictable with the 2006 draft stuff.

pot meet the oblivious kettle

I don't want to talk about Oden vs. Durant anymore either. This isn't the first time though you've called out people for what they start as a topic. For someone who doesn't start topics yourself I find it funny how you jump on everyone else.

http://sportstwo.com/search.php?searchid=200035

I "jump on everyone else" are you being real or just trying to act the fool in continued attempts to needle me? I occasionally confront posters who start the same thread for the umpteenth time as I'd rather not read the same thing over and over and over. Thats not going to change. We lack for fresh subject matter in the offseason so some redundancy is to be expected, but this particular subject has truly gone over the top. I like talking hoops but since no one has changed their view since the first Oden Durant butt hurt thread this offseason, the 10,000th version of it is just pathetic. The redundant poster is of course free to ignore my opinion and continue littering the board with their OCD, but it's fine to tell them how their thread sucks

Of course this isn't the first time you've confronted me. How ironic that someone who's made a habit of confronting me is calling me out as predictable. But please keep it up as I find your ham handed personal sniping amusing... we both know why you do it

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

pot meet the oblivious kettle

http://sportstwo.com/search.php?searchid=200035

I "jump on everyone else" are you being real or just trying to act the fool in continued attempts to needle me? I occasionally confront posters who start the same thread for the umpteenth time as I'd rather not read the same thing over and over and over. Thats not going to change. We lack for fresh subject matter in the offseason so some redundancy is to be expected, but this particular subject has truly gone over the top. I like talking hoops but since no one has changed their view since the first Oden Durant butt hurt thread this offseason, the 10,000th version of it is just pathetic. The redundant poster is of course free to ignore my opinion and continue littering the board with their OCD, but it's fine to tell them how their thread sucks

Of course this isn't the first time you've confronted me. How ironic that someone who's made a habit of confronting me is calling me out as predictable. But please keep it up as I find your ham handed personal sniping amusing... we both know why you do it

STOMP

First off, that link doesn't work.

Secondly, confront you? I'm not really confronting you if I'm arguing a point on the web. Fact is, you haven't brought any new topics to the board in a long while, but you spend a good amount of time reminding people that a topic has already been brought up before. Again, I already said I was tired of talking about Durant vs. Oden. But, what good is it going to do if you just complain about the topics people put up.

Lastly, I'll leave it up to you to sensationalize everything that comes your way. You seem to be good at that. Don't cast stones if you live in a glass house.

 

[Masbee]

I think that Masbee was trying to make that point. My bad, if incorrect, but I found his use of WS/48 amusing in terms of a comparative statistic.

Minstrel is right. You were confused.

To recap. Durant had a fantastic season. Oden did not. Durant is a very good player. Oden - when he is healthy and on the floor - is also a very good player. Durant is well recognized for his very good play. Oden is not recognized for his very good play, as his injuries and games missed dominate the conversation.

 

[LittleAlex]

Oden versus Durant isn't even the worst draft choice Portland has made in the last 6 years so it doesn't bother me at all.

Therefore Oden doesn't have to do anything to ease the pain of his selection.

 

[STOMP]

First off, that link doesn't work.

hmmm.... it was a link to my started threads I got through my profile. I'm not sure why they won't let you link it, but it really doesn't matter... anyone can look it up by clicking on my handle

confront you? I'm not really confronting you if I'm arguing a point on the web. Fact is, you haven't brought any new topics to the board in a long while, but you spend a good amount of time reminding people that a topic has already been brought up before. Again, I already said I was tired of talking about Durant vs. Oden. But, what good is it going to do if you just complain about the topics people put up.

Lastly, I'll leave it up to you to sensationalize everything that comes your way.

You claim I "jump on everyone" for starting redundant threads and I don't start threads myself. There is nothing commendable about starting a thread on a beat to death topic, nothing... yet here you are defending it. Could it be the same reason you repeatedly try to needle me in so many other threads

you're still butt hurt about the past, I get it. You acted like a complete punk when you lost our sig bet trying to weasel your way out of a clear loss that came about from this same desire to finally get me back for mocking you during your draft Adam obsession. You didn't even put up the sig as I posted it leaving out the after each of your embarrassing quotes. The predictable petty sniping has really gotten pathetic to the point when all I can do is point and laugh

I've started a many more threads then I've complained about. In and of itself I don't see starting threads as commendable as posters don't need to start threads to add value to our chat community and a spot on complaint can be a good thing as opposed to starting a redundant thread (like this one) which detracts from the quality of the board. Regardless it's a fact that I've started many more threads then I've complained about.... just try to disprove it. Yet here you are claiming just the reverse and saying that you'll leave the sensationalizing to me. You're bitching rings hollow because it's just you being upset

ps I'll be gone all weekend (anniversary) so don't let my non-response to whatever drivel you post puff your chest out too much.

btw... no one gives a shit

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

hmmm.... it was a link to my started threads I got through my profile. I'm not sure why they won't let you link it, but it really doesn't matter... anyone can look it up by clicking on my handle

You claim I "jump on everyone" for starting redundant threads and I don't start threads myself. There is nothing commendable about starting a thread on a beat to death topic, nothing... yet here you are defending it. Could it be the same reason you repeatedly try to needle me in so many other threads

you're still butt hurt about the past, I get it. You acted like a complete punk when you lost our sig bet trying to weasel your way out of a clear loss that came about from this same desire to finally get me back for mocking you during your draft Adam obsession. You didn't even put up the sig as I posted it leaving out the after each of your embarrassing quotes. The predictable petty sniping has really gotten pathetic to the point when all I can do is point and laugh

I've started a many more threads then I've complained about. In and of itself I don't see starting threads as commendable as posters don't need to start threads to add value to our chat community and a spot on complaint can be a good thing as opposed to starting a redundant thread (like this one) which detracts from the quality of the board. Regardless it's a fact that I've started many more threads then I've complained about.... just try to disprove it. Yet here you are claiming just the reverse and saying that you'll leave the sensationalizing to me. You're bitching rings hollow because it's just you being upset

ps I'll be gone all weekend (anniversary) so don't let my non-response to whatever drivel you post puff your chest out too much.

btw... no one gives a shit

STOMP

Your a piece of work.

You think I give a shit about how Morrison's career turned out, I could care less. Hell, I even posted a thread saying that Roy was the right pick. lol for some reason you think everything revolves around that and it really digs deep at me, like a zinger or something.

Fact is, you try and police the board and it is pointless. People are going to post what they want, when they want. Complaining about what they post is counter-intuative.

You are certaily one for being melodramtic though, so carry on.

 

[BGrantFan]

hmmm.... it was a link to my started threads I got through my profile. I'm not sure why they won't let you link it, but it really doesn't matter... anyone can look it up by clicking on my handle

You claim I "jump on everyone" for starting redundant threads and I don't start threads myself. There is nothing commendable about starting a thread on a beat to death topic, nothing... yet here you are defending it. Could it be the same reason you repeatedly try to needle me in so many other threads

you're still butt hurt about the past, I get it. You acted like a complete punk when you lost our sig bet trying to weasel your way out of a clear loss that came about from this same desire to finally get me back for mocking you during your draft Adam obsession. You didn't even put up the sig as I posted it leaving out the after each of your embarrassing quotes. The predictable petty sniping has really gotten pathetic to the point when all I can do is point and laugh

I've started a many more threads then I've complained about. In and of itself I don't see starting threads as commendable as posters don't need to start threads to add value to our chat community and a spot on complaint can be a good thing as opposed to starting a redundant thread (like this one) which detracts from the quality of the board. Regardless it's a fact that I've started many more threads then I've complained about.... just try to disprove it. Yet here you are claiming just the reverse and saying that you'll leave the sensationalizing to me. You're bitching rings hollow because it's just you being upset

ps I'll be gone all weekend (anniversary) so don't let my non-response to whatever drivel you post puff your chest out too much.

btw... no one gives a shit

STOMP

GRRR

STOMP angry

GRRRR

Anyhow, clearly STOMP gives a shit, due to this post and his PM wars with various posters.

He's wrong in this instance, though.

 

[STOMP]

Your a piece of work.

You think I give a shit about how Morrison's career turned out, I could care less. Hell, I even posted a thread saying that Roy was the right pick. lol for some reason you think everything revolves around that and it really digs deep at me, like a zinger or something.

Fact is, you try and police the board and it is pointless. People are going to post what they want, when they want. Complaining about what they post is counter-intuative.

You are certaily one for being melodramtic though, so carry on.

I "police the board" by making a throwaway joke about someone starting the same thread for the 10,000th time? Thats when you confronted me with your predictable BS....remember?

if you don't make a throwaway joke an issue, this isn't even a discussion silly

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

I "police the board" by making a throwaway joke about someone starting the same thread for the 10,000th time? Thats when you confronted me with your predictable BS....remember?

STOMP

Selective memory?

You called me out for "beating to death" the topic of Love vs. Aldridge.

Something that wasn't beaten to death because that was the only time I can remember in the recent past discussing it.

 

[STOMP]

Selective memory?

You called me out for "beating to death" the topic of Love vs. Aldridge.

Something that wasn't beaten to death because that was the only time I can remember in the recent past discussing it.

good grief... get a life

STOMP