What happened to Harkless?

[stampedehero]

He gets paid like a pro and he should earn from the bench or the starting lineup.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Injured his calf being the only player trying on defense

 

[BBert]

Edit: wrong thread

 

[SheedSoNasty]

Looks like his playing time is about to go up now that Turner fractured his hand.

 

[dviss1]

Undeserved demotion.

You don't know what's going on in practice...

 

[Boob-No-More]

Undeserved demotion.

No one outside of Dame, C.J. and Plumlee deserve to start on this team.

We have to start someone at the 3 and 4 spots, but we don't have a single player at either spot that have distinguished themselves as even average NBA players. Sure, some of them have specific skills (Crabbe shooting, Turner passing and posting up smaller players, Aminu defense), but we don't have a single player at either spot playing well enough to be a starter on a playoff team - which is one very big reason why we aren't a playoff team.

We need more generalists, players who are above average at multiple things (like offense AND defense) at these positions, not specialists who are only good at one thing.

BNM

 

[blue9]

We need more generalists, players who are above average at multiple things (like offense AND defense) at these positions, not specialists who are only good at one thing.

That's exactly what Harkless is. He is an average starting SF. Much like Klay being an "elite" SG, Harkless' status as an average SF says a lot about the talent pool in the NBA. But he does everything pretty well, but nothing great.

 

[Boob-No-More]

That's exactly what Harkless is. He is an average starting SF. Much like Klay being an "elite" SG, Harkless' status as an average SF says a lot about the talent pool in the NBA. But he does everything pretty well, but nothing great.

Agreed about the talent pool, however, Harkless is part of the problem. He is a below average starting SF. The SF position is top heavy, but once you get beyond the Durants, LeBrons and Kawhis, there are still a lot of other staring SFs better than Harkless.

He's how Harkless' averages compare to the league average for starting small forwards:

Scoring:
Mo Harkless = 10.6 ppg
League Average = 14.9 ppg
Difference = -3.7
Percent of League Average = 71.%
Rank = 21

Rebounding:
Mo Harkless = 4.6 rpg
League Average = 5.1 rpg
Difference = -0.5
Percent of League Average = 89.4%
Rank = 19

Assists:
Mo Harkless = 1.0 apg
League Average = 2.3 apg
Difference = -1.3
Percent of League Average = 43.9%
Rank = 26

Steals:
Mo Harkless = 1.1 spg
League Average = 1.1 spg
Difference = +0.0
Percent of League Average = 100.0%
Rank = 15

Blocks:
Mo Harkless = 0.9 bpg
League Average = 0.5 bpg
Difference = 0.4
Percent of League Average = 175.3%
Rank = 5

PER:
Mo Harkless = 12.8
League Average = 15.7
Difference = -2.9
Percent of League Average = 81.7%
Rank = 20

All together, that makes Mo Harkless about the 2oth best starting SF in the league, with an average production of about 82% of league average for starting SFs. He's a significantly worse than average scorer, a worse than average rebounder, one of the worst passers at his position in the league.

He does fare better in the basic defensive stats. He gets an average number of steals, and BLKs are the one basic stat where he is well above average for his position. Still, there is more to defense than blocking shots. He's clearly several notches below the LeBrons, Kawhis, Jimmy Butlers and Paul Georges defensively, and there are also several defensive specialists (Sefolosha, Roberson, etc.) that block fewer shots, but are much better defenders. I'm willing to concede that Harkless may be average for his position defensively, but it's hard to say for sure with him playing for one of the worst defenses in the league.

Harkless has a reasonable contract and he's still young. He started the year shooting well from 3-point range, but is now at .333 and falling. He has basically regressed to where it was last year and is pretty close to his career norms. So, he's not quite 24, but also not really improving much. Even an average SF would be an upgrade.

The problem is both of our starting forward positions are below average. I know PER isn't everything, but out of the seven guys we have that can cover those two position, not a single one of them has a PER above 13. They are:

Harkless - 12.8
Turner - 12.2
Davis - 11.1
Crabbe - 10.9
Aminu - 9.9
Vonleh - 8.7
Leonard - 8.4

Only one of them shoots above league average and that's ALL he does. Crabbe is an OK 6th man, but not starter quality. We need to upgrade both of these position, get a reliable third scoring option, better rebounding and better defense.

I know last year we had the worst front court in the league - this year, it's worse.

BNM

 

[blue9]

All together, that makes Mo Harkless about the 2oth best starting SF in the league, with an average production of about 82% of league average for starting SFs. He's a significantly worse than average scorer, a worse than average rebounder, one of the worst passers at his position in the league.

Given a smattering of stats that's still roughly an average starting SF. However, I contend that your interpretation of the stats you used to show he's below average is misguided.

Rebounding: He's half a rebound off of league average. On a poor rebounding team. Yet he ranks high as an Offensive Rebounder (3-way tie for 4th best).

Scoring: Yeah, he scores less than league average - a league average that's skewed by the likes of LBJ, Durant, George, Leonard, Giannis, Butler (SG playing SF), and Melo. However, I doubt his 47% FG% is below league average. Hell - I even bothered to look it up and he sports the 8th best FG%. He ranks at 22 for PPG, but he also ranks at 22 for FGA - I hardly think the evidence points to him being a below average scorer. If anything it says he's underutilized. There's no reason he couldn't be a Wilson Chandler or Tobias Harris-level SF if given a few more attempts - he scores fantastically when someone hits him on a cut to the hoop.

Assists: It's not his role to get assists. I'm not saying it should be - it's not a strength. But to call him "one of the worst passes at his position" is a poor interpretation of his APG.

Also, while I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of NBA rosters, I seem to recall several teams playing a PF or SG in place of a SF. Jimmy Butler, for example.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Given a smattering of stats that's still roughly an average starting SF. However, I contend that your interpretation of the stats you used to show he's below average is misguided.

Rebounding: He's half a rebound off of league average. On a poor rebounding team. Yet he ranks high as an Offensive Rebounder (3-way tie for 4th best).

Scoring: Yeah, he scores less than league average - a league average that's skewed by the likes of LBJ, Durant, George, Leonard, Giannis, Butler (SG playing SF), and Melo. However, I doubt his 47% FG% is below league average. Hell - I even bothered to look it up and he sports the 8th best FG%. He ranks at 22 for PPG, but he also ranks at 22 for FGA - I hardly think the evidence points to him being a below average scorer. If anything it says he's underutilized. There's no reason he couldn't be a Wilson Chandler or Tobias Harris-level SF if given a few more attempts - he scores fantastically when someone hits him on a cut to the hoop.

Assists: It's not his role to get assists. I'm not saying it should be - it's not a strength. But to call him "one of the worst passes at his position" is a poor interpretation of his APG.

Also, while I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of NBA rosters, I seem to recall several teams playing a PF or SG in place of a SF. Jimmy Butler, for example.

I didn't count Giannis as a SF. I used Jabari Parker.

Not so many this year. Since he left MIA, LeBron is back to playing SF. Paul George is back to playing SF. So is Carmelo. For a change, most SFs are back to playing their actual position this year.

And if you say the scoring average is skewed by the likes of Durant, LeBron, etc., it's also skewed downwards by the likes of the Luke Babbits, Mbah a Moutes, Andre Robersons and Solomon Hills of the world. There are 5 starting small forwards currently averaging 6.6 or fewer ppg.

Anyway you slice it, Harkless is below average in production for an NBA starting small forward, and he's also below the median. He's in with a group in that 17 - 22 range. Most metrics would put him right around 20th out of 30 small forwards. I don't know any that would put him above the median (higher the 15th).

BNM

 

[blue9]

Anyway you slice it, Harkless is below average in production for an NBA starting small forward, and he's also below the median. He's in with a group in that 17 - 22 range.

No, any way YOU slice it.

I would consider anyone in the 13-17ish range average. But, seemingly, you think only the 15th best - however YOU want to define it - is average, and all others are either above or below average. Psssh - whatever.